Mmm, see, over the years I decided that fudging the rolls is a bad idea.

This is the way I see it: people spend hours making their characters, buying gear, picking magic and bioware. Each of these things has a statistical impact. Sometimes, you'll use that much more of your starting nuyen to get ballistic armor higher by 1 point, which has a specific statistical effect.

I kind of feel like if the GM fudges the roles, all that time put into character creation has gone to waste. If I prioritized getting a few more points of armor over having a faster reaction time, I should get the consequences of that. Statistically, I'm less likely to die from getting shot, but statistically I'll also get shot more often. Does that balance out? It's all in the stats, and the decisions of the player.

In other words, I feel like there's simply no point to using statistical rules so painstakingly to make our characters and shape our world if the GM will just disregard them whenever something goes wrong.

When making the character, I knew the odds of my getting one-shotted by a Predator were higher or lower, based on my design. If a bad guy gets lucky and rolls mucho successes on his Pistols roll, and all and all blasts my head off...well, that was unfortunate, but those were the rules. My character design failed at that point, for whatever reason, and it's time to make a new one.

But, it's all pointless if my character design that I put hours into didn't count in the first place.

See what I mean? Why should we even bother to have a combat mechanic if that combat mechanic is going to be waived in the even of a little bad luck?

I used to believe in fudging, but now I am a firm believer in letting the dice fall where they may.

In fact, I just had an idea. Usually, in the past, with new players I would do a sample run in which I would roll the dice, explain the outcomes, but have the players be immune to damage. I would say things like, "We're playing this for familizarization, so you're not taking any damage. But if this were a real game, that'd be a Serious wound, and you'd have gotten a +3 TN to all target numbers. It's important to use cover and conserve combat pool appropriately," and things like that.

But, in the interests of immersion, and in the philosophical interest of letting the dice fall where they may, how about this?

Start all the characters off in some kind of MILES training compound. There's wooden boards and scaffolds forming houses, there's bunkers, there's underground tunnels. The characters are either equipped with MILES weapons (no damage, but beeping noises indicating wound severity), or else with simunitions (gel rounds). I'm thinking about the "McKenna MOUT" level in America's Army (www.americasarmy.com). Hell, too add flavor, we could even add the graffiti to one of the walls that says, "you can't spell lost without Lt." Let the character have a few "scrimmage matches" with gel rounds and learn the combat system.

That would be totally immersive, totally letting the dice fall where they may, and very much just pure practice in the use of the combat engine.

Hell, just to represent the practice, a GM could be entirely justified in giving each participant in the MILES session a karma point for each "scrimage". That seems totally reasonable to me.

What do you think?

EDIT:

This was originally going to be a reply post here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?act=...=7&t=2467&st=50


EDIT 2:

How about using paintballs? That could be both flavorful and instructive. Describe where the paintball hits based on the successes the shooter had after reductions from a dodge test, and describe the pain based on the actual amount of damage that would have been caused after staging.

So, in terms of the shooter's successes,

Light = hit in the hand or foot
Medium = hit on the arm or leg
Serious = hit center of mass
Deadly = hit on the face; "are those my balls on your eyes?"

In terms of pain,

Dosen't hurt = staged away
Faint sting = light
Healthy smack = medium
Extremely painful = serious
You almost pass out from the pain = deadly

I have also recently adopted the practice of open GM rolls, for much the same reasons you describe. Also due in large part to BitBashers Post linked in my sig:

I like the GM screen because I like keeping my players in suspense, I don't want them to know wether the person hiding from them rolled better of it there really isn't a person there. I like the decker not knowing if he found all the IC or not, if they see my really awesome roll then their crappy one they'll know there's stuff there, they just can't find it.

As for fudging rolls, I guess if SR is primarily a combat simulation for your group then fudging would be the worst thing possible. On the flip side for me it sucks to go "Well that random ganger just blew the brains out of that character who you'd written a 10 page backstory, maybe you should work the statistics better on what keeps people alive and less on why they run the shadows".

As the GM I can give the NPCs a pistol skill of whatever I want, he can be good enough to shoot you in the eye from a mile away or unable to hit you if the barrel is against your forehead, I decide if he's got APDS, or whatever. When it really comes down to it your stats really don't matter, no matter how well you design your character I can instantly create a NPCs that's you +1 so you lose. *shrugs* That's just my 2

i try to do both. In cases where the PCs know what is being rolled, roll it in the open, but for things that they wouldnt know (op[posed stealth tests, things like that) then go ahead and hide it. Or, roll dice at any old odd time, and jot the results down, and occosionally pick from them.

I like this idea, but it does leave the potential for the PC's to fall victim to an error in planning on the GM's part. Letting luck have its say is one thing, but it'll just cause resentment if the GM can't admit when he's put the runners into an effectively unsurvivable situation.

What about keeping target numbers a secret still? Really, whether or not the GM screen is there, it's about the GM being honest with himself.

Outside of combat, success and failure really relies on the group (or the GM, I guess) to interpret the rolls, so it makes sense.

Another thing to remember is that you need a fair amount of over damage in order to die. It's hard to just take this unless you keep fighting after taking so nasty wounds - so really the 10 page backstory guy just needs to learn to back down and try another angle once he's racked up 6 boxes. SR isn't D&D - it's not the end of the world if you lose a firefight or two.

Except that the nice man with the assault rifle can throw out 20D damage (8M base, +2 Power EXEX, 10-round burst).

I like the screen because I roll like the god I am.

my friends have always commented on this, but in sr3, I could take a random punk with a predator and take out a troll in millspec body armour. (exxageration but it's the point)

that holy shit look at them 6s is common when I'm rolling dice, why punish the players because I have all the karrma?

If I´ve had my players make characters according to the rules, and the sentiment is that we will be playing by the rules, I will go to great lengths not to fudge rolls, even if I keep them hidden. I like to have a bit of unpredictability in my game. How rolls are resolved on the other hand, can be a rather improvised matter in my game. Players will mostly follow the rules, but for NPCs I´ll make up how the rolls are resolved if I can´t remember or if the canon way takes too long.

I keep hidden rolls that the book says to hide. Otherwise it is all open.

As far as rolling the dice as a Ref, ST, Ctr, DM, GM, SM, S&M, SOB whatever you call the person in charge of the plot/world.
My take is, "chance favours the prepared mind."

From open dice to Ref whim free form.

Edit: Am inform I need to make this clearer by my friends, "so that there is at least a signpost to my meaning." (thank you so much my players).

So as a ref in control of everything bar the characters conscious thoughts and choices, prepare extensively so nothing that the Ref controls will/can surprise you, probability included.
That leaves only the PC's choices (with obligatory curve ball) and anomalios dice rolling, fortuitous or desastrous. With only these things a ref can build in redundacy and maintain the stance of benevolant tyrant enforcing the rules, harsh but fair (mostly harsh).
One notable individual stated,"It's called ref fudge because a little is nice and a lot is bad for you."

I'm a big fan of hidden rolls. I am not a big fan of changing the results of those rolls, no matter the end being sought.

~J

treating the world like every person is fodder unless you created them a prime runner is stupid, it's now what SR is.

SR isn't about making SRs gods amongst men.

It's about Sharks in a very large ocean of smaller fish, patrolled by bigger sharks, fishermen and any other sorted thing that makes you small in the end despite however many fish you eat on the way.

Okay, you all are forgetting the number one rule. This is a game, and we're here to have fun.

Now, I don't know about you, but personally I don't find it to be fun to be taken down due to a few bad dice rolls. If a PC fails an athletics test while climbing to the second story, I'm probably not going to let him die from falling damage, even if he botches his soak roll.

What's more, in combat, I've discovered that causing serious+ wounds is more likely to teach players to be careful. If you just kill off PC's, they think that the game system was responsible, and respond by heavier munchkinism. OTOH, if you hit them with 9 boxes of damage, they're more apt to realize that their own tactics got them into this mess. A close brush with death can be a more effective teacher than killing the PC outright.

We just read his post with different experiences. No harm no foul.

For anyone that wants to continue on the "12 seconds is a long time" track:

Mental exercise: Find a clock with a second hand. Count out twelve seconds, while doing your best to imagine how you'd feel if you were that close to death. Not "bleeding another box". Dying.

Sometimes I think people start focusing too much on how long it takes to play out a combat turn in RL, and forget how short that combat turn really is in the game world.

What you're saying is true, but if you focus too much on how short an amount of time that is in real life, you lose track of how long it is in Shadowrun. Twelve seconds. That's…

I'm an idiot. He doesn't even bleed out in twelve seconds. He bleeds one box in twelve seconds, and all three of his remaining boxes in thirty-six seconds. I meant twelve combat turns.

But yeah. For Shadowrunners, twelve seconds is a long time. For a pretty typical group that is about eight Complex Actions right there. For the group I'm currently in, it's more like twelve. The combat will probably be over long before the character is dead, unless someone takes another shot at him.

~J

@ Kage: Meh, we both knew what you meant.

As to how long it is, it's still a matter of whether you're in nicely divided three second combat turns, surrounded by several friendlies, or if you're in a dark alleyway, watching the guy that capped you walk away with your credstick and sunglasses.

@ WR: There's nothing at all wrong with it. Yes, it is good. You missed the point of contention. I think.

Every roll we make is out in the open and we like it that way ti makes sure that no one is bluffing or cheathing in any way shape or form to save themself or kill some monster in a cool way. This does have its drawbacks when it comes to deadly confrontations but that is the way the SR universe is

I admit; I used to fudge rolls, and my other GMs did as well. Now that I've grown more experienced, I appreciate the fact that sometimes, things just don't go as planned. My GM told me our current shadowrun game would be "as it lies" no matter what. And since he brought this up front, there was no surprises.

two examples: in a Star Wars D20 game, our GM literally rolled more 1s than any other number on attack rolls that night. And it made the game rediculously easy that session. But we also realized that it was luck, and that's a large factor in our practically wound free session.

In another example, in Shadowrun of all places, we had an elven Street Samurai literally destroy half our group in one combat turn. The samurai killed four combatants in one full turn; two of them during the same phase. Poor rolls on the player's part, and damned good rolls on the GM's part. I was one of the first two die in that melee.

So be it. It swings both ways. And I know firsthand that your super powerful NPC that you've worked months on as the final climactic battle dies due to a lucky shot is the more frustrating thing in the world. But PCs can also be dropped the same way; the above Tacoma Forever Ork? he's in the situation that you were when fighting said ultimate NPC. How do you think he felt when he dropped you with the lucky shot?

I've noticed that this play style has overflowed into other games I've played. No longer do I have the mentality of "I've got 100 hit points! That ork can only deal 1d8, and I'm the hero! No way I'll lose"

Instead, if ANY kind of battle or firefight goes down in shadowrun, my first action is to find cover if at all feasible. THEN I begin the fight. Admittedly if no cover is around I'll adapt, but that's the exception and not the rule.

My fellow players call me a coward, but then are surprised when I'm the one not rolling up a new character every five or six sessions. Because, when your character dies, you should view that as a learning experience, and be thankful that it's not real life where you wouldn't have a second chance like this.

Fight smarter, not harder.

Okay, I'll shut up now.

I don't fall into the "all dice as they fall" or the "fudge everything" camps. I generally will fudge die rolls to keep PCs alive if their situation is largely my doing. If the PCs are at fault for their situation (choosing to shoot their way into a facility, not bothering to talk with the gangers, etc.) then how the dice fall is how they are read.

I often use a screen IRL, but mainly to keep my notes hidden. Die rolls being hidden is a secondary concern and mainly only to keep NPC statistics invisible.

I really, really don't like messing with the dice rolls. A GM has so many other options, as far as adjusting things on the fly. I can understand the temptation, though, to want to keep a well-developed character alive. On the other hand, that is kind of arbitrary (i.e. deciding who gets a break... and who doesn't). It can become favoritism if you're not careful. And it does create a game that has less of a sense of real danger.

I have less empathy for GMs who will fudge dice rolls to keep a "recurring villain" alive. I consider that cheating just as much as a player intentionally neglecting to fill in a box of damage. And again, the GM has so many other options - including the HOG rule - to keep a villain alive. If a villain surviving is vital to the plot, then reexamine the plot, and try to tweak it so that it is not so linear. If anything, the main villain dying earlier than expected can create an interesting ripple effect. Former subordinates vying for control, a squad of suicidal assassins that only the boss knew how to contact, a rival crime boss taking the opportunity to move into the power vacuum, etc.

I do fudge some die rolls yet my players have always been intelligent and sought cover and done their best to avoid fire fights. I don't make my players immortal but I don't want them to go down like puds. I understand the never fudge crowd, I just choose to disagree.

Neither I nor my players play shadowrun to figure out what's better, anouther point of ballistic or anouther reaction, we're more in it for the story. If it fits the flow of the game that a PC goes down (like they decided to throw down with some of the uber-drones in the arcology) so be it. But personally I would have thought Gladiator would have sucked if Maximus had gotten taken out by a random arrow when he was charging the barbarians in the first battle. Now you guys may take that as a way to teach the PCs to carry a shield, and that's cool.

For me if I'm in a game where my character is getting killed every other session or so (and I've been in plenty of those games) I'd rather spend my time playing paintball, halo, or currently Battlefield 2, and my PCs agree. If you're having fun playing your way have at it. I can see the appeal, I just get tired of making dozens of PCs due to bad luck or the GM sending us up against guys toting LMGs with APDS all the time.

I will admit I fudge rolls, however I think I have good reasons for it.

I'm currently running two games. The first is made up almost completely of newbies, none of whom had ever heard of SR before six months ago (it's online, so slow posting rate), most of whom still have never touched an SR book. They're learning the ropes. They have no idea how things are supposed to work. So my intention is not so much to run a 'by the skin of your teeth' game, but a game where each run teaches them how to fine tune their skills for future adventures. As such, I think a little lee-way to either keep them alive (but smarting!) after a tumble or to put them in more... 'educational' positions are worth while. That doesn't mean I'll protect them from certain stupidity, just that they have a little more leeway to play in.

The other game is of professionals. As I said, I run games online. Waiting on dice rolls sucks, so I do them all myself. Generally I leave them where they lie, but I will fudge if I feel it adds to the drama. For instance, in melee combat, I won't let the fight go on for eight rounds, I'll push things so it finishes up in four. I think it's more exciting than waiting around. Silly rolls I gloss over (okay, roll to break into the blue-4 system...) And when a chance of one die might shift the adventure in a much more exciting direction, with some consideration, I do it (for either side. I always forget NPC karma pool, so I guess it's fair in that regard). But again, my focus isn't on combat, but on story, so the rolling is rarely very important.

By canon, a one-meter fall is 1L. Fairly realistic—people who are unlucky or particularly vulnerable can indeed be injured, if not seriously, by such a fall. A two-meter fall, of course, is an even deadlier 2L!

~J

Recently there was a guy who hit his head on the sidewalk and went into a coma, he was in a fight and get knocked down, but it was the hitting the sidewalk that really did it. This happened a few weeks ago in DC, in the adams morgan area. Treat that as you may, but some people sometimes just can get seriously hurt even from a fall that's really close, and hitting one's head on a curb can be serious.

edit: Aye, agree with Kage. All the people gotta do is botch their resistance to damage. voila. you have something that can simulate somewhat with real life... I guess.

Re curbs, I think it is worth pointing out that even very short falls can injure someone, leading to a fractured bone in the wrist or hand. Even if you don't like the falling damage, the logical thing is not to arbitrarily fudge it every time it comes up, but rather to do some research and rewrite the rules so they're more rational.

Someone I know broke their collar bone walking the dog. They were standing and the dog took off in another direction tripping the person with the leash. When they fell with their feet held together by the leash, and then only had one arm to brace the fall because the other was trapped in the leash handle. They stiff-armed the ground and the collar bone snapped.

My grand dad fell and had a heart attack.

Or maybe it was the other way around.

I personally feel that bad rolls which result in a character's death add to the game. The same goes for NPCs.

For instance, people in real life die all the time, right? Perhaps they failed their driving test, and hit a tree. Or perhaps they failed the perception test needed to notice that their house was on fire, and died of carbon monoxide poisoning. Or they might have failed their damage roll after tripping and falling, and hitting their head on a curb.

Think about all the people you hear about in real life, who die from things far more simple, or more stupid.

Death happens, sometimes unexpectedly. Deal with it.

So do colds. When was the last time you afflicted a PC with the flu?

Shadowrun characters aren't normal people. They're meant to be larger than life. Heck, what fun is it to play a guy who leads a boring, mundane, everyday life? That doesn't mean that PC's deserve to have a special glow, but they do get to be in the spotlight.

The goal of a game is to have fun. Constantly rolling up characters due to bad luck is not fun, at least in my experience.