Cyclops and ghouls.. Options

[Kakkaraun]

Critters, PANA, Companion: Read them. Nowhere do they mention that ghouls receive a +2 on (almost) everything, and I think that they'd want to make that damn clear, if it was the case. Which it isn't, because astral sight completely overrides physical sight. Nifty, huh?

[A Clockwork Lime]

I did read Critters. Even quoted it. Quoted the Shadowrun Companion, too. And they do make it clear.

* When a character is using astral perception, they normally suffer a +2 modifier due to the distraction of seeing both worlds. SR3 p. 172, Astral Interaction.
* Dual-beings do not suffer this penalty because they are accustomed to the distraction. Critters p. 5, Dual Beings.
* PC Ghouls are dual-beings. SRComp p. 34.
* PC Ghouls also have the Blind Flaw unless they get implants. SRComp p. 34.
* Being blind via the Blind Flaw causes you to suffer a completely different +2 modifier when performing actions on the physical world while using astral perception (or in a ghoul's case, as a dual-being). It has nothing to do with being distracted whatsoever. SRComp p. 19, Blind Flaw.

Now all you have to do is read that list a few more times and hopefully, you'll get it through your skull this time. And look ma, page references!

Also, again, the only thing really up for debate is whether or not a cyclops ghoul suffers an additional +2 modifier on top of that. The rules say yes, I say no. But if you're following the rules, you're stuck with it; they suffer a +2 modifier on all ranged attacks. That applies to magical attacks as well as physical attacks, it applies on the physical just like it applies on the astral. No condition is stated for it being due to eyesight, even if it's obvious it's supposed to be. The lettering of the rules, they suffer a +2 modifier on all ranged attacks. Period.

I don't know why you can't understand that just because the rules say something, it doesn't mean you have to abide by them or think they're even remotely sane. You prefer your house rule. Kudos to you. I prefer my house rules on numerous subjects, too. Doesn't change a damn thing about the actual rules, though.

In summary: You're frelling wrong. Deal with it.

[A Clockwork Lime]

The only thing I can see that is even remotely confusing is the fact that all three of those penalties are +2. So let's just get rid of that entirely and try again.

* Normal characters who are dual-natured (such as any time they're usuaing astral perception) suffer a Distraction Penalty.
* Dual-Beings, who are permanently dual-natured, do not suffer a Distraction Penalty. This is the sole benefit of being a Dual-Being instead of dual-natured.
* Ghouls are Dual-Beings, thus they, too, do not suffer a Distraction Penalty.
* Ghouls are, however, blind.
* Blind characters suffer a No Physical Vision Penalty while dual-natured, including Dual-Beings.

This is all canon. Page references above.

Cyclops also suffer a No Depth Perception Penalty. Nothing about this No Depth Perception Penalty states that it only applies on the physical world or that it's necessarily due to them having a single eye. Thus if a cyclops who is dual-natured still suffers the penalty. If a cyclops becomes a Dual-Being, they still suffer the penalty. If a cyclops becomes a Dual-Being who is blind, by the letter of the rules, he still suffers the No Depth Perception Penalty on top of the No Physical Vision Penalty.

I find that last part retarded, but it's still the rules.

[Kakkaraun]

Okay. Once again, what you seem to have trouble with is: MAGICALLY ACTIVE =/= DUAL NATURED.

The flaw says absolutely fucking nothing about what being Blind means for a dual-natured individual. NOTHING. Therefore, since LOGIC generally prevails, we'll have to invent our own rule, extrapolating from the others, which say:

*A dual-natured creature receives no penalty for astral sight
*Astral sight completely overrides physical sight, thus making any physical sight modifiers (any mods which pertain directly to the eye, not mods from things like smoke, which have shadow reflections on the astral plane)

Thus, a blind DN character, in normal conditions, has no sight mods.

Now, for the cyclops mod...in the text it says nothing about any "brain abnormalities" causing the vision problem. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that having one eye is the only reason. Now, since astral sight overrides physical sight 100 percent, that doesn't matter.

Thus leaving a cyclops ghoul with +0 to hit at ranged.

[A Clockwork Lime]

No, you're the one who can't comprehend that Astral Perception make you dual-natured. SR3 p. 171, Astral Perception, last sentence of the second paragraph. A dual-being is simply someone who is permanently dual-natured, but doesn't suffer the normal distraction penalty that non dual-beings suffer. Critters, p. 5, Dual-Beings.

I gave you the page references multiple times. Read them before you continue to shove your foot in your mouth.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[A Clockwork Lime]

Agreed, like I said, it's stupid. I wouldn't enforce it on a blind cyclops at all.

But blind ghouls still suffer a +2 target modifier on all physical actions.

[Shockwave_IIc]

I agree with that on soley physical actions.

I might be being a little dumb here, i think living things show better on astral as suppose to simple physical things..

Meta-human vs drone as an example

[CoalHeart]

A question regarding all of this talk about blindness and astral perception.

What if you're colorblind, and have astral perception? You would normally not know what colors are, but everything atrally is painted with what your mind interprets as color. If you have no frame of reference (because you're color blind normally) how would your mind interpret the colors?


P.S. I hope this doesn't fan the fire, was just a musing thought.

-Edited in-
P.P.S. I know color blindness only applies to certain colors, but lets just say this was total color blindness.

[A Clockwork Lime]

Yeah, but the thing that sucks is that the penalty is implied to be similar to the one normal astrally perceiving characters receive; i.e., any Physical actions that target anyone existing solely on the Physical Realm. So that includes shooting a gun, melee combat against mundanes, and so on and so forth.

You can always snag the Blind Fighting adept power (if an adept) or martial arts maneuver to help get rid of that penalty, though. You're a lot better off than normal blind characters, though, so you shouldn't have any trouble convincing a GM that either of those options will effectively eliminate the +2 modifier completely.

[Kakkaraun]

If it's a mind-thing, you can't interpret color, period. If it's an eye-thing, on the astral plane, you can.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[A Clockwork Lime]

If I were you, I'd consider going with Ambidexterity 4, then. You're already suffering from the lack of an ability to use targeting devices, so you might as well double-up the firepower and thus double-up your chances to hit.

[Shockwave_IIc]

Doesn't work in the concept.

[Rev]

That cyclops +2 to ranged combat because they have one eye thing is wrong anyway.

Binocular parallax error depth perception in humans only works out to ten feet or so, people often close one eye when aiming a ranged weapon, etc. It ought to be +2 to melee combat, if anything. Parrallax error depth perception is relied upon to judge the distance to nearby objects like another person's fist.

Try to juggle with one eye shut, then try to throw something at a target far away. The first is much more difficult than usual, the second exactly the same as usual.

[Kakkaraun]

[/B]Just to bring this to closure, since the guy who started it might not be reading the other thread this was discussed in:

SR3, pg 171: "[A]stral perception does not rely on physical vision in any way, it is a psychic sense."

[A Clockwork Lime]

Wow! However did you find that quote, which hasn't been mentioned whatsoever in this thread before? Gosh golly, you're so on top of things.

[toturi]

[Kakkaraun]

It's A. But...hey, how do you submit a question to the ShadowrunRPG.com FAQs so that this doesn't come up again?

[I Eat Time]

I play a Ghoul, here's my take.

The +2 Modifier applies to a AP-ing thing attempting to do something based in the Physical. The thing is, it's not that hard at all to do a lot of things on the Astral. For instance, shooting, which my character has no problem with, since he shoots at living things, which are more lit up on the Astral than desks, chairs, etc. (Auras and such.) Thus, he need not look into the Physical to shoot at things, and even if he did, he wouldn't get a +2. He'd get a +6 or +8 or whatever for being friggin' BLIND. I really hope that the two rules don't stack, it'd be silly if they dyd.

I do have another question. Do smartlinks not work for Ghouls?

[Capt. Dave]

[Shockwave_IIc]

[toturi]

[Snow_Fox]

Oddly enough I think the ghoul would have all of the problems. Any race who becomes a ghoul loses it's natural vision. A cyclops is use to mono-vision so even when it gasins astral sight, allowing that it doesn't use natural eyes, if it is the standard monocular-vision for a cyclops on the astral plane(which we don't know if it is so) then they have that problem. If they enjoy binocular astral sight, thinmk about it. They are not use to binocular vision of any sort and it would possibly confuse them badly.