Ok Being a Cylcops gives you +2Tn's to range attacks due lack of depth perception.

Ghouls being dual natured and blind (+6 Tn's for solely physical based sight) have Astral Peception. Which being a "Psychic" Sense doesn't require eyes....


Thus a Ghoul Cyclops shouldn't get the +2Tn's for range combat Vs a living target cos they can use Astral Perception to "See" the target.

Right or Wrong?

At least in my opinion, wrong. The Ghoul Cyclops still sees in monoscopic, regardless. I dont believe astral sight or normal sight would change that.

By canon though theres IIRC no guarantee there can be a ghoul cyclops, as the HMHVV may kill it as it does some metatypes.

Right, I'd say. Astral is /purely psychic/. You can have eighteen eyes, one eye, no eyes, or two eyes, and astral would be the same.

yeah. it's kinda crazy to say that astral percep can overcome having no eyes, but not overcome having one eye. astral perception isn't based on eyes at all, ergo the cyclops' +2 TN doesn't apply.

Performing physical actions while using astral perception imposes a +2 TN. Not to mention background count also adds as a vision penalty.

At least that's what our GM says.

Exactly. They don't get the +2 for having only one eye, but they get the +2 due to astral perception, plus normal astral modifiers.

The +2 is for "purely mundane tasks" and does not apply to creatures that have been dual natured for any significant amount of time. Shooting a gun would be a purely mundane task, but once adjusted to astral sight, the blind dual natured cyclops would no longer face that penalty.

You'd think that...unless you were aware of the fact that dual-natured beings don't suffer the +2 astral-sight mod. Heh.

Otherwise, materialized spirits, dragons, and a bunch of critters would be a /lot/ easier to kill .

But all living things have auras no? thus when attacking (in any physical way) a living thing that modifier wouldn't apply? (+2Tn's for using astral)

You're confused. This is how it works.

When viewing the astral, everything is kind of...muddied, and you get somewhat disoriented. Therefore, when trying to do a "physical" act while perceiving astrally, you get +2 TN. Therefore, shooting, fighting, searching, et cetera, all +2, but casting a spell or something like that has no mod. This is how it is for mages or physads with Astral Perception...when AP is on, they're dual-natured.

HOWEVER! A PERMANENTLY dual-natured being (dragons, materialized spirits, barghests, GHOULS) does not receive this +2 mod.

Grok?

So my Ghoul hunting Ghoul Cyclops with autoshotgun is a go then?

The bit you're missing from what Ancient is saying, Kak, is that while dual-natured individuals don't suffer the usual +2 penalty for veiwing both worlds, that "lack of a penalty" comes from the assumption that they can see perfectly fine on both worlds.

But since cyclops suffer from depth-perception problems on the physical, they'll still suffer a +2 target number penalty on any action dependant on physical sight.

Ask your GM.

Lime--how can you have a physical-sight modifier if you can't see physically?

I'm not saying it's my opinion, it just looked like you weren't quite getting what he was getting at.

No.

But if your character were a cyclops mage or adept with Astral Perception, and used that, you wouldn't have the one-eye mod, but you would have the astral mod.

technically by the rules it says you get a +2 to all ranged tests, and it does not specify the type of tests ot conditions, it is simply all ranged tests. Therefore if you are performing a ranged test by the letter of the rules, regardless of the type or details yes, you suffer the penalty.

A GM may make an exception to those rules as written provided he feels differently

That would contradict other rules, though. In terms of contradictions, always side with the logical rule...

What rule does that contradict? Dual-natured beings simply don't suffer a penalty -- a penalty derived from something completely unrelated -- for using astral perception. A cyclop's +2 TN penalty is completely different from blindness or astral perception.

The rules say that astral sight is wholly psychic and no physical-sight modifiers apply.

Dur.

Are you still planning on making a ranged combat test? Cause if so the word "All" us unambiguous from my previous quote.

Apparently you're missing out on the "dual" part of "dual-natured." They don't typically suffer a penalty because they're fully using both senses.

Nope. Ghouls are blind, they only have ONE sense. A mage using AP sees just the same as a ghoul. Only difference is, a dual-natured individual was born (or reborn) with that sense, and has adjusted to it specially because it HAS to see like that, all the time. Or so I think...that seems the most logical reason why DNs would have no modifier for permanent astral perception.

Oh, and don't ask me for a page reference, but most places where AP is mentioned, it's stated that AP overrides the other senses. Because it does.

Dual-natured refers to the fact that they're astrally and physically present 100 percent of the time, nothing about their sight.

Seriously, Lime, it's kinda cute when you reply with that tone and you're right, but when you're wrong, it's kinda pathetic.

Actually, does the SRComp ever state that Ghouls don't suffer the penalties for Blindness when using Astral Perception? Or does the flaw? I don't recall it saying as much. Especially since the cost is only lowered, not negated, for characters with astral perception.

Nowhere in Critters or SRComp does it say anything about them having the modifiers for being blind. Also, the reason it's not negated for magically active characters is because they STILL AREN'T DUAL NATURED.

Okay, here's some actual rules quotes.

So, penalties from having flaws in seeing with your eyes...stay around when you turn blind.

Cool.

Who said it was necessarily due to their eyes? Could very well be a psychological problem; most cyclops were born that way and never experienced depth perception. Just as others have already pointed out. Not that it matters since being blind still grants the +2 TN penalty on any physical action while dual-natured (since, yanno, he's not really seeing dual...).

I always wondered why they included that flaw for ghouls. Now I know.

So yes, "by the rules," the penalty does, indeed, exist. You may not like it, you may not use it, but that doesn't change the fact that the penalty is canon. Even if it's due to something else entirely now that he's a ghoul.

Lime, you can't seem to get it through your skull that Dual-natured and astrally percieving are very, very, very different things.

And you can't get it through yours that 1) you're blatantly wrong and 2) the only benefit dual-natured beings have over astrally perceiving beings is that they don't get distracted by both worlds.

Now I'll say it really slowly for you this time. A blind character can still be dual-natured, but they're only seeing one world. And the rules for being blind specifically state that they suffer a +2 target modifier for any action involving the physical realm. Being dual-natured only removed the distraction penalty for seeing both worlds at the same time that normal characters have when astrally perceiving.

Those are two completely different penalties.

While the ghoul may not be distracted by both worlds anymore, unfortunately, he's not seeing both worlds at the same time anymore either. 'Cause he's physically blind. And thus unable to see the physical world. And thus suffers a +2 penalty because of that. Not the other, different, wholly unrelated +2 penalty normal characters receive for astral perception due to being distracted.

Different penalties. Not the same. Different. Dual-Natured beings only get rid of one of those penalites. Not both. Because they're different. D-I-F-F-E-R-E-N-T.

different, adj. 1. Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature; dissimilar. 2. Differing from all others; unusual.

Got it this time? Hope so.

That said, the only thing still up for debate is whether or not a Ghoul Cyclops should receive an additional +2 target number modifier on top of that one. By the rules, he should since no condition on physical sight is linked to the penalty. Logically, my vote is no, he wouldn't. But by the rules, yes, he would. For a total modifier of +4 when shooting someone in the physical world. That's +2 for being blind and +2 for a lack of depth perception. Note the complete and utter lack of an additional +2 penalty for being distracted by both worlds.

I would. Except for the fact that APing characters don't see two worlds at once. Astral Sight completely overrides physical sight. That's why--and I think this was a specific example in MitS--a character can close one or both of his eyes, squint, open them wide, or NOT HAVE THEM AT ALL and still see just the same, astrally.

EDIT: Oh, and since you don't know this either...as it says in MitS, page 83, the +2 modifier is because you're dealing with looking at the SHADOW reflections of physical things...not the things themselves. The shadow representations.

Dig?

no, they don't. astrally perceiving characters see both worlds at once. if i had my books on me, i'd prove it; i don't, so i'll let someone else.

Well, I do have my books on me. And they prove I'm right.

Uhm, no. That's where you're wrong again.

Astrally perceiving characters become dual-natured (though not the natural way Dual-Natured characters are). Says so right in the beginning of the Astral Perception section of SR3. When using astral perception, you can see into the astral plane; in no way do you stop seeing the physical world, too. That's the entire point around the +2 distraction penalty for performing physical actions while perceiving. Duh.

EDIT: It's also the entire point of the additional +2 penalty being blind causes while perceiving.

I see nothing on page 83 of Magic in the Shadows that states what you just said was supposed to be there. I am extremely dyslexic, though, so it's possible I missed it. Can you please give an exact quote? Please include which section you're quoting from, too. I didn't see it under Astral Barriers, Pressing Through a Barrier, or Background Count.

/me sighs.

Here ya go:

"If a character is specifically looking for the 'shadow' representation of a mundane physical object on the astral plane, the search is modified because the uniform gray color of the astral plane makes finding physical items in this manner difficult."
-MitS, page 82...sorry. Fucking font .

End of first paragraph under "Astral Visibility."

No one said that the colors of physical objects weren't changed (hence the "distraction" of seeing both worlds simultaneously). And, technically, this section is talking about astral visibility only (ie, an astrally-projecting magician), not dual-natured vision. Regardless, this does nothing to prove your point. The only thing it does is add yet another potential penalty for those poor, blind dual-natured characters.

/me sighs, too.

You're still completely wrong on this one. SR3 is very clear about the penalty, and it is very clear about the Blind Flaw. Again, the only thing unclear is the part about Cyclops and whether their own, unique penalty should carry over or not. Again, I say no. Again, the rules say yes (since they give no exception). Either way, a ghoul is still suffering a +2 penalty for any non-magical tasks they make due to being blind. The latter way just adds another +2 on top of that.

Of course they have the option of getting cybereyes and thus regaining their vision (and losing the penalty), which is something you normally can't do with the flaw. So it's really up to the player.

She's my one eyed, one eyed, one eyed, she's the one eyed love!

i'm right. SR3, page 171, second paraph under Astral Perception, first sentence: "To use astral perception, spend a Simple Action to extend your perceptions to the astral plane." note the utter lack of the word 'replace', anywhere in that sentence; astral perception does not, therefore, replace physical perception.

Huh, I guess I've been doing that wrong. I wonder if I got that from an old edition.
But if there's a distraction from viewing both worlds at the same time, then why isn't there a +2 distraction modifier to purely astral actions as well?
Hmmm, I really, really thought that astral sight replaced physical sight when astrally perceiving. Now I'm all confused.

Consider this a reading from the Book of Canon:

*Looks in to Can* Where have all the worms gone?

Toturi: Thats my take on it as well.

But for the rest of you, another sliant to the situation. the targets i intend to shoot are Duel Natured. Any changes?

Toturi-yes, you got it.

Shockwave-it doesn't matter if your target is DN.

Oh, and if I put in hair EXTENSIONS, my hair would no longer be the length it was before, it wouldn't be half that length and half the new length, it'd be the new length, period. Not that I'd ever do that because a.) I'm a dude and b.) my hair is hippy-fied enough already, but you see my point.

Toturi, yes, you do indeed have it. A blind ghoul does not suffer the +2 target number modifier for being distracted. But unfortunately, he's still blind, and according to the Blind flaw, he suffers a completely different +2 target modifier for being blind. Being dual-natured does not remove that particular modifier. Dual-natured beings only ignore the original +2 target modifier for being distracted.

Translation: Blind dual-natured characters still suffer a +2 target modifier, unlike other dual-natured characters who are not blind. The source of that modifier has nothing to do with their being accustomed to both worlds; it's the fact that they can't see jack on the Physical. Because they're blind.

Shadowrun Companion. Page 19. Blind Flaw. Read it.