 HMHVV and Vampires |
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 Nov 16 2005, 01:07 AM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803  |
In which case, you do your damndest to kill him, and have someone rip out all of those juicy chunks of nuyen...er...I mean, flesh-substitute. |
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Nov 16 2005, 01:18 AM
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#27
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Of course, if someone regenerates, that doesn't necessarily mean that the only rational choice is to kill them with extreme violence. They could, for example, be a shapeshifting eagle or something.
But it does mean that they aren't human. So you can put a shaped charge on their backpack and say "Look, I need you to level with me... you aren't human are you?" And if they lie, or admit to being a vampire, or try to bite you, you blow them up. And then if they come up with something really weird like "I was actually born as a badger, I've only recently tried to pass myself off as a human." then you get a really weird look on your face and harrumph "Well, alright then." (and try to get your shaped charge back before he notices it). Vampires are homocidal and dangerous to have around. Even if they never tap their evil powers once, they still have to kill about 2 people a year. And every time the pop somebody, there's a chance for more vampire attacks. It can go crazy really fast. A responsible person whois at all concerned about humanity as a whole has really no ethical choice but to kill all vampires. Even Insect Spirits and Toxic Shamans can be negotiated with, Vampires have a biological need to slaughter humans at an unacceptable rate. Even if they agree to only prey upon bad people, it's still totally unacceptable, because then new vampires will be created who are templated on bad people. It's lose/lose no matter how you look at it. -Frank |
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Nov 16 2005, 01:29 AM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 504 Joined: 8-November 05 From: North Vancouver, BC Member No.: 7,936 |
Actually in SR, vamps can restrain their hunger, well more so than other meta-HMHVV-types, and like the book says, some only take off wiling subjects. So in fact they aren't homicidal maniacs, and actually I remember an old mission book made by FASA that had vamps in it, cant remember the name though
what need killing are the wendigos and Dzoo-noo-quas, those creepers have issues, they have to eat the flesh of people they kill, not take a bit of blood from people who live in the end. And also, if anything that regens is hit and the damage is to the spine or head (say a grenade hits them, or any explosion really) they don't regenerate. And if they did right infront of you, I doubt they would let you come up to them and talk to them, plus they would notice the shaped explosive that would be put on them, so that probably wouldnt work. |
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Nov 16 2005, 04:49 AM
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#29
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
Yep, Shadowrun vamps are some of the relatively "nicest" in any Rpg around. They can suvive without killing at all. (btw what the hell is wrong with killing? this is Shadowrun!)
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Nov 16 2005, 05:52 AM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That kinda depends on the POV of the person choosing? Say someone interested in collecting bounties? :D
You are really on top of your game today i see. Mist Form is specifically described as a magical effect that converts the vamp into the mist form. A bit more of an extreme state change than say Shapechange or Turn to Goo and would require an additional Poltergiest/Levitate type effect for the locomontion. But not much outside the realm metahuman magic. Further, Regeneration power (which is also magical in nature, note that the Magic attribute is used directly in it's mechanism) is halted from functioning when the vamp is exposed to an allergen. What happens when a vamp in Mist Form is exposed to an allergen? That's right the magic stops working and it returns to it's -whole- form. Odd that something that would generally disturb the magical effects would actually have one take stronger effect? Of course it could be that the vampire is a collective of "germs" only held together by some magic force. It also could be that the earth is hollow with opennings at both poles, there is an entire civilization on the inside surface, and that the New World Order of the Scion has covered this up by having all obital photos doctored. But, you know, we might check out slightly more mundane explainations first before proclaiming things like vamps having a shape at all is a magical effect. |
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Nov 16 2005, 06:35 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
[OFFTOPIC]Hey, the Hollow Earth theory has never been proven wrong! :D [/OFFTOPIC]
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Nov 16 2005, 09:38 AM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
So, Frank, should I take it you think the same of Krieger Infected Ghouls? After all, they have to eat 1% of their bodyweight in metahuman flesh every week (So basically, a Trollburger, maybe with a side of Elfries). This translates to about three and a half people a year. And they can transmit the virus easier than vampires can - one bite or scratch is really all that's necessary, and the living person may become a ghoul. |
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Nov 16 2005, 09:48 AM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
That's why I always voted for the extinction of all ghouls.
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Nov 16 2005, 11:29 AM
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#34
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Don't forget the bounty.
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Nov 16 2005, 05:01 PM
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#35
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
No, I think nothing of the sort for Ghouls. A Ghoul has no need for live flesh, and apparently according to some sourcebooks can eat cloned metahuman flesh as long as it's metahuman flesh. Which means that Ghouls are not inherently in competition with humans at all. Humans die all the time. And since this isn't D&D, their bodies are useless once they are dead. Less than useless actually, because they are vulnerable to Shedim attack. As long as the Ghoul population is low, they are actually advantageous to have around if humanity would just swallow its pride and its desire to display human corpses in glass cases. Human bodies in Shadowrun are a threat, so much so that failing to incinerate or consume a corpse is flat irresponsible. Ghouls up to the natural death rate could be sustained at a net benefit to the economy and civil safety. Ghouls beyond the natural death rate put a strain on our cloning facilities and are thus an economic drain like the handicapped. --- So in a well managed wellfare state, vampires die, ghouls live. -Frank |
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Nov 16 2005, 05:20 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Previously not all ghoul tranformation resulted in, what Sir Topham Hatt would call in your senario, "really useful ghouls". Oddly enough that could be part of the nitch for a small number of, er, co-operative Vampires to exist in your [somewhat chilling] vision of a managed state. The gap, if it exists, between the lower boundry of Sapience and the lower boundry of being a "really useful ghoul".
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Nov 16 2005, 10:24 PM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 399 Joined: 27-May 04 Member No.: 6,361 |
I, personally, always envisioned SR vampires as alive. Altered on a basic level, but alive. Not only alive, but basically the exact same person as before with very very different instincts. Makes them more interesting than the classic "undead" creatures. The writers do not seem to take an easy out. Hell, even in other systems, vampires can still be "good" people. Both World of Darkness settings have that.
As for the homicidal maniacs, thats one extreme and not the whole picture. You go from an omnivorous being who has no base instinct to kill others of its kind (normally) to a new creature with all the urges and instincts of a wild, literally bloodthirsty predator. Lets not forget that to both the victim and the vampire the drinking of blood/essence feels real good. While a person of high moral standards and good willpower could likely stay more or less similar to how he was before, rather few of the people turned to vampires likely have this resolve. |
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Nov 16 2005, 11:32 PM
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#38
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Vampires and the like don't have to kill that many people. Reasonably, an average shadowrunner will kill more people in the course of an average job than a vampire will have to eat in a month.
A vampire wetwork specialist can get his fill without causing any net harm. As for the potential of the victims comming back as vampires, just leave them with a tenth a point of essence and cap them in the head. Leave them with a tenth a point of essence and cap them in the head [Repeat to the turn of The Saints Go Marching In] |
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Nov 16 2005, 11:42 PM
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#39
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
for that matter, vampires don't even have to actually kill anyone, iirc. they could just drain 1 point of essence from a lot of different people.
furthermore, you could use vampires to hunt other HMHVV infected critters that are causing problems =P in fact, considering i've seen a houserule (caused by the essence hole/replacing cyberware situation) that essence come back, slowly, in any campaign with that rule vampires don't even cause permanent harm (ermmm... well, not necessarily at least). however, that being said, i believe that in general vampires should probably be killed, as many of them probably aren't the kind of people you want to have around. |
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Nov 17 2005, 01:29 AM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
I don't know what kinds of jobs your runners take, but for a lot of shadowruns, the only "reasonable" bodycount is zero. Just sayin'. |
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Nov 17 2005, 11:44 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
yes, well that assumes a run goes perfectly, pretty much.
like that's gonna happen all the time... |
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Nov 18 2005, 01:37 AM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
It's not a real Shadowrun until somebody dies.
Just sayin'. |
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Nov 18 2005, 05:03 AM
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#43
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,086 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 364 |
Note I never said any shadowruns ever turned out reasonable.
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Nov 18 2005, 05:58 AM
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#44
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
For some shadowrunners, it is reasonable to level an entire city dlock in downtown Seatle killing hundreds. It all averages out.
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Nov 19 2005, 11:42 AM
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#45
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
SR4 changed it a little bit, saying a Ghoul has
So they are no longer solely depending on killing metahumans or finding dead ones. They can easily live off animal flesh. |
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Nov 19 2005, 04:05 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
"I wouldn't call it living...call it surviving."
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Nov 19 2005, 05:06 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Ann Arbor, MI Member No.: 7,803 |
They still need some metahuman flesh, just like in SR3. In SR3, a ghoul can eat the flesh of a dead cow - that's fine. Or a pig, or rats, or whatever. They simply have to have about 1% of their own body weight in metahuman flesh every week. SR3 outlined and defined the ghouls dietary requirements more than SR4, because they had rules to play said ghouls (I'm playing one in an SR3 game right now :P) |
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Nov 19 2005, 05:53 PM
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#48
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Indeed, Ghouls have:
I don't know whether it's going to remain 1% every week in this edition, the SR3 rules for characters were incapable of actually generating the "Ghoul" in the critters section no matter how well you rolled. But in any case, unless there has started being 300 weeks in a year without me noticing, that actually corresponds to about 1 metahuman body every 2 years, not 3 metahuman bodies every year. -Frank |
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Nov 19 2005, 06:28 PM
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#49
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That math is based on the assumption that 100% of the live weight of a metahuman body is "flesh" that's acceptable as ghoul food with no waste in serving. I doubt bones are. The actual number of bodies needed by any given ghoul probably depends a bit that ghouls palete is ok with tripe, sinew, kidneys, toenails, etc. :) |
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Nov 19 2005, 07:26 PM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 46 Joined: 6-October 05 From: Toronto Member No.: 7,819 |
I try to like ghouls, I really do. But the fact remains that they are basically walking plagues. All it takes is one drunk/drugged/pissed off ghoul to spread their contagion to anyone that looks at them funny. I'm amazed there hasn't been a George Romero zombie syle Ghoul Plague yet.
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