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 Nov 4 2004, 04:05 AM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834  |
Somehow I find the possibility of cyberware not at least heavily gimping a magical power amazingly unlikely, given how badly it messes with magic everywhere else. After all, you can repair damaged cyberware with a heal spell and a limb certainly has no skin as such. Personally I'd probably just give the thing a severe TN mod for each cyberlimb, something like +3 per limb on it's test to use skin shift but that's just my opinion. Also I tend to laugh long and hard at the absurd weakness that is Lovecraft. Cthulu, after all, got his ass kicked by a slow moving steam boat. I'd hate to see what a 16 inch naval shell would do to his squid-like form. |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:08 AM
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#77
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Personally, I think Horror magic works opposite of normal and that essence loss is like opening a door to them... Choking your wife to death with the cyberarm almost beats kicking your son to death with the leg.
Got his ass kick? Try: Turned into mist form while the mana level was still many years out of sync. The boat did nothing to it. |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:21 AM
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#78
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Horrors feed on corruption. While they may or may not be able to work with cyberware, I'd be damn sure it wouldn't hamper them.
~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:01 AM
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#79
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
thanks for the stats, btw...I may use them in my own campaign. Actually, the Baggi reminds me of the Red Terror in Warhamster 40K - if you got 4 attacks to hit, it ate a human-sized person whole...
Of course, I have a feeling if my runners ran up against a Baggi they'd take one turn to boggle, then run like all get out and the immortal saying "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun YOU" would be applied. :vegm: |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:43 AM
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#80
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
I would think that most horrors would "ignore" characters with very low essense simply because they are very much magical creatures, and I think it would be difficult for them to interact with and draw sustenance from such weak patterns (splicing SR and ED terms). Which is not to say a Horror won't Slaughter/Manipulate a cybered character if it had to, just that it would consider Marking or drawing sustinance from it distasteful, similar to the Horror's reaction to the Blood Elves. A lot of the more powerful horrors in ED dealt primarily with the magically powerful (Yrsgrathe, Taint, Verjigorm, Nemisis).
Of course, mindless horrors probably wouldn't much care about cyber. If a gnasher will eat a rock, it doesn't make much sense that it would be put off by a little plastic. Oh, and could someone explain why Horrors should have 0 Essense? They are innately magical. And if you don't give them essense, you have the headache of having to convert all the Horror powers insead of just inserting SR critter powers that fit. Not to mention nothing with 0 Essense can use magical skills in SR (and there's no sense in breaking a rule for breaking a rule's sake). Plus it's needed for the Astral Hazing SURGE effect, which just makes sense for Horrors. |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:57 AM
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#81
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Then we have the question of whether cyberware will even be used when the magic level gets that high. When nearly everyone of note is awakened, cybering beyond a few points will probably be fairly rare, and most people I doubt would have much more than a datajack.
I doubt even Epsilonware will solve the problem of costing Essence, and if didn't cost Essence, well, no possible grounds to claim protection (aside from the lack of essence loss, but that didn't save the Fourth World). ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:09 AM
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#82
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
I think in ED only about 1 in 20 people were adepts (can't remember where that number came from), so even when magicians do rule the world, they'll need to cyber their minions so they have a chance against the other magicians. ;)
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Nov 4 2004, 06:12 AM
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#83
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But they won't, because either the magic will be more powerful but the cyber won't or the cyber will be more available to the mages. This is, of course, barring a huge advance in the 4.5+ Essence cyber fields (after adjustment for grade type).
~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:24 AM
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#84
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As long as cyberware has any Essence cost, mundanes will always be more capable of taking advantage of it without damaging their magic; even if a mage could take what is today the equivalence of 10 Essence points of Cyberware for the cost of 1 Essence, a mundane could take the equivalence of 60 Essence points worth. As the years roll by, cyberware will also probably dwindle in costs as it becomes common, everyday technology. In fact, finding an unaugmented metahuman will doubtlessly be a pretty tough thing to do, even amongst the young.
If magic also becomes powerful and common, as it doubtlessly will, that just means mundanes will be able to take advantage of both sides of the coin. Mundanes will have more focus on implants with magic on the side, and adepts will have more focus on magic with implants on the side. Even if you don't share that view, implants aren't going to be what saves humanity from the Horrors (though it will doubtlessly help; especially with a souped-up BTL-type chip that simulates the pain the Blood Elves went through without having to actually have thorns sticking out of their flesh... and the mundanes could turn it on and off at will). It's going to be their technological prowess as a whole. Even though the Fourth World had magic that is on par with and trumps modern science, they still were only using primitive weapons and architecture. Couple unimaginable magic with unimaginable technology against a foe who's masses are only equivalent on the magical side... and blam -- you'll have a much more interesting fight. I honestly don't see humanity cowering inside kaers when the next Scourge comes along. They're either going to fight or abandon Earth for manawarps and man-made habitats altogether. |
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Nov 4 2004, 06:27 AM
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#85
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Essense translates to Pattern integrety, and Horrors have patterns, so Horrors have Essence. However, their patterns are fundamentaly alien and it does not hold that Horrors would have the same type of Essence that other creatures do. It is quite possible that Horrors have what we would consider subzero essence becuase that is the normal state of their Pattern. For all we know, essence loss could be a result of Horror corruption. How do we know that cyberware wasn't invented by Nemesis or a Ristular?
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Nov 4 2004, 11:55 AM
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#86
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
IIRC they only wounded the Horror, as Lorm's Axe is a threaded magic item whose last thread is activated by killing that selfsame horror. Dunkelzahn and Harlequin both seemed to believe that having both technology and magic would be the key to defeating the Horrors this time round. As I stated in another thread, I think this is why they work so hard to open peoples' eyes to some of what is going on whilst at the same time concealing the truth of immortal elves and dragons etc - they don't want us forced into the same channel they were in. Clearly, in the eyes of people who actually survived the Horrors, technology provides some inexplicable yet considerable balancing force. Perhaps concentrating on one aspect of technology is a mistake; perhaps it's tech as a whole. The combination, say, of global communications even when you spend 90% of your time locked inside a citadel, plus milspec weapons that can shred even an armoured Horror, plus personal cyberware that puts the non-Adepts on par with their magical brethren (ED Adepts were not in the majority of the population by any stretch of the imagination, you just tended to meet more of them as PC's because like attracts like). Tech levels the playing field against the Horrors far more than magic ever could because everyone can use it. I ran a campaign set in the second Time of Horrors. It was only a short one, because several of the participants buggered off to university, but it was quite popular. Of the six-man squad, there were only two magical types. For the record, my house rules were: Magic Priorities dropped by one to reflect the increase in mana levels; cyberware was bought in packages of Epsilonware rather than in individual pieces as the PCs were agents of the governing body; all weapons had their weights halved and their ammo capacities increased by 20% to reflect technological increases; APDS ammo was standard, the bonuses for AP and HE were increased (I can't remember by how much, sorry, it was a long time ago); the harmful side-effects of MBW and, oh, what's the other one? Anyway, those were reduced to much lower levels, again to reflect increased technological competence. Anything else got adjudicated on a case-by-case basis; mostly I settled for making things lighter and more reliable rather than tinkering too much with basic stats. Ah, I can still remember the troll with the missile launcher taking a short-cut to getting into a caer believed to be overrun by Horrors. Mage: "It'll take me a while to decode the locking wards." Troll: "We don't have a while. There's Horrors in there, and in case you forgot, Horrors back there too." Mage: "It'll take as long as it takes. You can't rush magic." Troll: Whoosh. BOOM. Mage: "Of course, that would work too." |
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Nov 4 2004, 12:08 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
a little off topic, but in an offshoot of my last campaign we integrated the Dark Conspiracy rules, the adventures integrate very easily into shadowrun, and the critters and main entities are very, very similar to horrors..stats are also very easy to convert to SR
in any case, take a look at Darktech from that system.. semi biological very corrupted modern tech.. an evil twin to bioware.. and very helpful for any horror campaign.. guaranteed you will have your players going what the..? just as often as they will be reaching for a barf bag. :) DS |
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Nov 4 2004, 12:22 PM
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#88
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Are we talking about Astral nukes or the 1st Astral Armoured yet? Why must we wait till the mana level to get high enough before we invade the Horror's metaplane? So what is the Office of Homeplane Security doing about those pesky Horror terrorists?
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Nov 4 2004, 12:56 PM
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#89
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Actually, even if every other aspect of technology was completely, utterly, and hopelessly useless against the Horrors, this alone would be reason to pursue the tech route. It seriously damages the ability of even powerful Horrors like Giftbringer to subvert areas without alerting others. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 03:35 PM
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#90
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
In point of fact, the first mission I ran was a bughunt where a nearby caer went out of communication and the team were sent to investigate. Out of sheer sadism, I had a later mission planned where something similar happened, except that this time it was the caer's leaders who went bugf**k completely without any intervention from Horrors and cut off communication from the "horror-infested outside world". It was designed to be deliberately misleading :) |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:21 PM
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#91
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
guys just for fiendish creativity how does a horror hurt a sociopath with a pain editor?
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Nov 4 2004, 04:25 PM
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#92
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The lesser ones, physically. The greater ones probably wouldn’t bother, though Giftbringer or the one with the ravens whose name I forget would probably have a field day.
~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:31 PM
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#93
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,590 Joined: 11-September 04 Member No.: 6,650 |
Kage it feels no pain, remember the lesser horrors can only feed on pain they cause. this would be a much nicer version f the ritual of thorns
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Nov 4 2004, 04:41 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
To Kanada Ten:
Call of Cthulu specifically states that Cthulu's body was ripped to shreds by the impact of a slow-moving steamboat, and while he did regenerate afterwards for some reason Cthulu wasn't able to keep on attacking the world and his city sank beneath the waves immediately afterwards. Mist form had nothing to do with it, Cthulu's body is simply that weak. Back to the horror debate: In my opinion what will really give mankind an advantage over the horrors is space travel. They've already got a lot of people living in orbitals, it's natural that over time that's going to become more and more common. I could easily see a neo "Goldrush" after some resources in space, particularly if a 50 kilometer-wide asteroid of platinum or some such went by and people started to realize just how much wealth is floating around out there. If the population as a whole becomes aware of horrors, the desire to escape them will spawn a similar space race just to get away (Aside from horror hunters). Colonies will have to be kept small enough not to generate their own manaspheres but that'll actually be easier than building really huge ones. Space has no mana. Horrors are creatures of mana. The warp of space will kill any astral or dual natured creature in seconds, minutes at the outside. If there are horrors capable of being completely physical with no magical component at all (Probably) they are now quite vulnerable to all our physical weapons as well. Say hello to my orbital railgun. The last reason that horrors are really screwed by space travel is the simple psychological fact of human survival. No matter how bad it gets on earth, a significant portion of the human race is largely safe. They cannot genocide the species, they cannot even touch most of mankind. This will be tremendously uplifting to the morale of humans left on earth to fight horrors (As will their ability to go to a completely safe place to rest and relax after wiping out a few dozen horrors) and will massively frustrate the horrors. As I understand it, many horrors feed on such emotional frustration, anguish, and fear. With those emotions damped or gone, they're going to starve for karma and spirit energy while humans gain a boost. |
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Nov 4 2004, 04:51 PM
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#95
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The least Horrors and constructs don’t even feed on such abstract concepts as pain, they feed on physical objects like your right leg. The ones I mentioned feed on aggression and jealousy. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:01 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Creatures that want to feed on physical objects like my leg will have to feed on a few clips of EXEX (or better) first.
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Nov 4 2004, 05:10 PM
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#97
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Target Group: Members Posts: 72 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Oak Ridge, TN, CAS Member No.: 407 |
If that thing you're firing EXEX .45 ACP at happens to be a Horror, it isn't going to care.
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Nov 4 2004, 05:10 PM
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#98
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Go for it. You’ll even kill them that way. Doesn’t mean they’re no threat.
Fire Hawk, we’re talking the weaklings like Gnashers here. ~J |
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Nov 4 2004, 05:14 PM
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#99
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
imo, is there was a heigra into space stations and the like, then the mana warp would be pushed out. Life, as far as I know, creates the "habitable" astral areas near our reality. (not unlike the 'force')
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Nov 4 2004, 05:17 PM
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#100
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The Horror Constructs, as well as Gnashers from the list of minor horrors, statted in the message Azrael quoted from an earlier forum might not "care" about a few magazines of EX-Ex, but they'd be killed/destroyed/disabled none-the-less.
With Wormskulls and Baggis, you'd just have to upgrade to a Barrett, a PAC or an MG firing APDS ammunition. For anything bigger, there're always ATGMs and the autocannons I mentioned earlier. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 4 2004, 05:20 PM |
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