 SoA-chapter reviews, let's start sopme threads gang! |
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 Sep 16 2005, 06:12 AM
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#26
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Illuminate of the New Dawn  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 317 Joined: 9-June 03 From: Seattle 'Plex, UCAS Member No.: 4,700  |
In some ways I kinda hope they don't do this, but one thing I thought about for the Yakut section was that the "earth elemental-like things" the Yakut rebels had befriended/used around their headquarters (can't remember the name - somewhere around Lake Baikal? or something?) were the first obsidimen to awake in the SR timeline. I'm generally not all that big on ED creeping into SR, but I have occasionally liked it in the past. Anyway, just a random thought.
Actually, what I originally meant to post on was to say that the groundwork just hasn't been laid in SR for really powerful beings besides IEs and Dragons of various stripes. If there had been something off the scale in Asia, where would it have been in the metaplot up to now? It would be hard, though not impossible, to write in something of an IE or Great Dragon power-level without having any reference to it before. The majority of the GDs and IEs were accounted for early on and haven't changed a whole lot since (besides being fleshed out in some cases). Whenever something else big enters the scene, its a big plot, like Ghostwalker. |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:14 AM
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#27
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
First of all, good for you! SEcond, the one big weakness of spirits is that damn true name which really just acts as that whole Achilles Heel. Sad for them. For Japan, I'd like to see some kind of technological meance from there. As much as I love Shadowrun magic, I'd like to see some more technological type threats, like Deus. Maybe not as massive in scale per say, but it seems like (once again, besides Deus) all the big threats are magic , except for things like the Human Nation, and the guys trying to bring NA cak to the USA. Personally I'm hoping for something cool with HItomi (akaFormer-Corporate-Brat Vampire Otaku Empress Hitomi Shiawase). Maybe technomancers will be neat. Who knows. hahnsoo: I'm sure that focus will change with the new edition, if for no other reason than that Synner seems to be everywhere now. :D But now that we have more plot devices, and more focus on things like Lowffy, the nobles cabal, Pendragon, the Vory/mafia war. I think one of the things I love about the European setting the most is that it's very busy, has many different influences, and that it's all balanced (in terms of things like magical-techno-normal people threats I mentioned above). I looking forward to seeing that developing more as well. |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:26 AM
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#28
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
May be coming sooner than you think. Lugh Surehand is mentioned in System Failure as being deposed (details aren't forthcoming yet, but I'm sure we'll see them in a future sourcebook). In any case, what exactly were you thinking? The return of the Hindu gods? Buddha walking the earth again? The Moa statues climbing out of the earth and ruling from on high? The Flying Spaghetti Monster (okay, that's not Asian... but I like it)? Dragons are a staple fantastic element of many cultures in both Europe and Asia, and SR has chosen the paradigm that dragons are the top of the food chain, literally and figuratively. Also, there are magical elements of the SR universe that transcend mere personal power on Earth, like Totems and the Horrors (through the Horrors, Darke was able to keep even Harlequin in check). It's all a matter of scale, and I think the scale is "big" enough as it is (to the point of being ridiculous)... anything bigger, and then you'd have "Rifts". |
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Sep 16 2005, 06:26 AM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
They seem to be perfectly capable of (and occasionally occupied by) doing that to each other. |
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Sep 16 2005, 07:21 AM
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#30
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
as far as the elves go, I jsut wanted a change in the status quo. with :
, that seems liek a step in the right direction for me. Also with Aithne bieng out of the Tir, Ehran doing his own thing, and a rivalry with Lowfyr and Aithne (maybe rivalry is the wrong word, meh), and spats with people like Aina and Alachia (HATE her, she should push up daisys or something. I stopped hating her for a while, then read Worlds Without... again, hate the character, hated her in ED), seems like a good oppurtunity for them be thorns in their own sides. Spread that power out a bit. Have it more like the dragons plotting against each other in the shadows. Which seems appropriate with their roots and all....
BTW, any more going to be forth coming on Ms. Blatvska (spelling ?) of the AF? Sounds like a good candidate as another IE, especially since she's identified as being 'Hecate' in LA, and 'Hecate' was talking with all those big movers in The Aztlan SB. I liked that 'Hecate' better as Alachia. God forbid they somehow be one and the same. Didn't one of those files from the FASA give away identify that Hecate as being Alachia? Was that not used since it wasn't 'official'. |
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Sep 16 2005, 07:56 AM
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#31
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
AFAIK Blatavska = Hecate = Alachia.
I know that AH was inclined to believe it could also have been Aina for a while, but I think he's since come to realise that can't be the case. :D |
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Sep 16 2005, 08:04 AM
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#32
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I KNEW I hated her for a good reason!
Thanks Fortune, you just put SO many pieces in place for me. Now I hate her even MORE. Iswear to god I'm going to keep playing the same PC for YEARS until I can kill her. Hate her worst than cows. |
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Sep 16 2005, 08:43 AM
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#33
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Thorns... hah! |
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Sep 16 2005, 09:11 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
FiveVenoms: Could you be more specific and name one or more indigenous creature or entities that you think would be on par with Great Dragons and IEs?
After a quick mental search, I think most big "beasties" are reptiles, if not dragons, in Asia too. Asia also has its share of giants, ogres, and superhuman heros. Hanuman is a special case. I hinted at it in Indochina in the intro when I mention the "rare white dours" among the local sentient species... Another idea that I couldn't develop further due to the lack of space... |
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Sep 16 2005, 09:12 AM
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#35
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
hehehe
Now of only we could get Aithne's bitter "ooh, I'm an angry immortal that hates roses" attitude directed at the stupid queen of roses, I would be a happy camper |
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Sep 16 2005, 10:09 AM
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#36
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I'm pretty lacking on asian culture Mike ol' buddy. Sometimes I like to pretend I'm not, but wacha gonna do. 'Spose you could explain what/who "Hanuman " is,and what you mean by "rare white dours" for those of us less inclined to dreg up their google-fu? Some of us clueless need a bit of assistance. Danke |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:15 AM
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#37
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
In a nutshell, Hanuman is a legendary hero present in various version of a buddhist epic tale. His the king of the monkey people, and has superhuman strenght, as well as various magical items. The Chinese legend which Dragonball is originally based on feature a variant of Hanuman, the Monkey-man. Hanuman is known from India to Southeast Asia to parts of China. And important detail, his fur is all white.
edit: and the Dour is a SR critter that is an Awakened monkey, sometimes rumored to be sentient. Mike |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:24 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'm not sure everyone would be pleased with that development... ;) I'm going to take this opportunity to mention something again. I think people might be underestimating the way Rob and the current group of freelancers have collectively been taking the game. The way plot and setting development is done today is a lot more organic and multifaceted than it was under previous line developers. I think SoE and SoA as well as Loose Alliances and System Failure are good examples of the mix Rob has been guiding us towards in terms of integrating multiple styles/power levels and a wide variety of players/threats with different but co-existing agendas. And it goes beyond development style: I loved the FASA material (its why I got into freelancing), but as a long time fan following the material, I always got the impression that at some point in the development process someone would decide "this book will be epic" or "this book will be street level" or the last book was "magic-oriented" so the next one has to be "tech-oriented" or "corp intrigue". This always struck a nerve with me because I've always felt Shadowrun's strength is in the mix and crosspolination of all those elements. I think most books should include as many of those elements as possible because they not only co-exist in the Sixth World but they constantly interact. This is one of the reasons when Loose Alliances came round, I submitted stuff as diverse as the Vigilia, Brokerage X and the Fascists. Its also the reason that being able to team two seemingly disparate threats like Pax and Winternight in System Failure was a dream come true - the perfect example of how bi-polar and yet consistent the Shadowrun world could be. Fortunately (for me) this seems to be the way Rob likes things too. Make no mistake, I end up writing what Rob allows me to. But ultimately yeah, I'll continue to play up the mix in any future writing as long as I'm allowed.
Those are good examples of what I was talking about above, stuff like the noble's cabal, the Vory/Mafia war, even Spinrad vs. Lofwyr and Pendragon come from weaving threads and interesting ideas coming from a bunch of different people. I really can't take the credit, even when the writing has my name to it - this was a collective effort. Most of the material in SoE was co-developed by several people working together (which is why it weaves through different chapters), but the same holds true for SoA. Major contributions from Jay Levine and Jennifer Kitzman were fundamental to the way the Ganges, the Orissa network and Hindu magic turned out, all I did was wed them with my own ideas. Similarly, when writing Russia, Jon Szeto was nice enough to follow on the Rolf Bremen story seeded in my DotSW/Lofwyr material as well as the Polish situation introduced in SoE. João Nunes (who co-wrote Poland in SoE) plugged the missing jyortlinga plot in his central Asia material. And Mikel Brodu's Golden Triangle cartels flow into the Mansur brotherhood in India and João's Kabul maffiya. This kind of organic integration is what I really like in recent FanPro's books and it extends beyond plots and players to the realm of rules (ie. Speaker adepts being "unmasked" in game, the WMI in SoE, AR tech in SOTA64 and SoA, UMT preparing the way in DotSW and SOTA64). Rant mode off... and now back to our regular broadcast... |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:33 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Hanuman is a figure originally from Hindu mythology. The Monkey-God/trickster hero and Krishna's devoted warrior sidekick. While a minor figure in terms of pantheon hierarchy, he became one of the most popular elements and one of the most revered dieties in India and its subject states in SE Asia (and remains so today). So much so in fact, that when Buddhism became popular a few thousand years later it adopted Hanuman and took him with it as it spread through continental Asia. |
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Sep 16 2005, 11:53 AM
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#40
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
wow, thanks guys. Ask for a little info..... nice.
I'll have to read back over that section again. See what more I can get out of it second time around. Synner: One of the things I am defintely looking forward to in SR4 is the product info on different setting besides Seattle. I know Hong Kong has been identified as one (which I'm stoked about). What I'm wondering is how many , or to what extent I guess I should say, these seperate plot threads will be brought under the magnifine glass. Are we going to see something similar to the Shadows of... for each, or more along the lines of New Seattle, but for different locales? I guess my biggest beef with SoA is that I wanted more! I ceratinly understand the constraints on the hardcopy, and I knwo that by far the majority of it will never be used in a game (directly at least). But I keep reading thinks like Mike saying he had to drop some 3,000 words, you had a few thousand, DE/Jay had a few MORE thousand. That's a lot of lost material. It was great having little gems and seeds, like the mana storms showing up in Polynesians islands, and no one knows why. Open ended threads that can be used in any way. That's good stuff. But little tidbits like that make me wonder what else was missing. Really I guess I'm just saying more of the same, that (I'm assuming ) many of us would like to see what was left out, and things like Holostreets could be an excellent resource. Even if Fanpro was to put out say an SoA expansion on pdf only for say $5-10, I'm sure there'd be people that would pick it up, and it would be minimal hassle for Fanpro, being that they already have everything written, and only need to compile and convert it. Much less work than the dead tree edition. Just my thoughts. THink I'll go home and sleep now. |
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Sep 16 2005, 12:13 PM
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#41
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say a mix of both - but don't hold me to it.
That is one of several potential sellpoints for Holostreets and the subscription service with this sort of material would help tide hardcore fans over between hardcopy books. I guess we'll have to see what final form it takes though since last we heard deals were still being finalized. And now back to Shadows of Asia, before this thread is further derailed. |
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Sep 16 2005, 01:19 PM
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#42
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 15-September 05 Member No.: 7,750 |
Fine....you've forced my hand into admitting you all make some excellent points. So....where to start before I crawl back to sleep-there really is no plot precedent for any of my would-be super-powers. I'll be the first to admit that it's more or less wishful thinking. Hahnsoo makes the very good point that dragons exist in a lot of different cultures, in varying degrees of interpretation (again, going to Thailand as an example, there are people who believe fire breathing serpents live in the rivers even today), so it makes sense. I actually like the dragons. Ever since the whole "Dunkelzahn's Will" plot I've appreciated them a lot more. After that, there's the fact that there really isn't a good precedent for some Asian superpower outside of their mythology that I'm aware of. Even popular modern fiction in the 'fantasy' setting in China etc, that I'm aware of is mostly based out of their mythology.
As you say; there's the issue. It makes for an amusing mental image, but I can't see, say, General Kwan stepping up to the plate to manipulate corporations, or a Yak being anything besides a scary giant with a huge sword. Prarahoo (sp? Big black ogre god?) might work, Naga have already been tackled, ditto w/Garuda, The "Monkey King"/Hanuman?........well, yeah I could, but for all of the huge assortment of gods, goddesses, creatures, etc. that I could cite, in light of what you all said, it does make more sense to accept IEs and dragons and move along. Realistically, this is more a case of me personally being disgruntled with the IEs as the upper echelon of the SR canon-and Asia being a big place, I was hoping for a 'counter' for that. I'll admit it's not the most logical wish, but (and some people here may have actually HAD this experience) if your mad desires actually show up in print, you are eternally vindicated. However, if you actually wanted me to come up with a "plausible", researched, historically or mythologically based, non-dragon concept, I'd be happy to, but again, the tendency does seem to be towards big powerful lizards in a lot of cultures....oddly enough.
Still, maybe I'll get my wish regardless, when this plot line pans out. Incidentally, thanks for humoring me everyone. |
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Sep 16 2005, 02:42 PM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
I'm not sure I agree with you in regards to such a tencdency. In fact I thought dragons, besides Lung and Ryumyo, were pretty down-played in SoA. On the other hand you'll find references to the Pandawas of Bali, the power behind Yakut's White Rock, whatever's active in Tibet, the Ganga Ma and the Orissa network, the Angkor naga kingdom, etc. There's plenty to play with regards to local mystical powers. |
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Sep 16 2005, 02:52 PM
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#44
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I think he's saying that a lot of real-life cultures have the odd tendancy to display flying lizards of mythic proportions, not that SoA had a lot of dragon activity.
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Sep 16 2005, 06:01 PM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 15-September 05 Member No.: 7,750 |
Yes-That's what I was getting at. Aztec, "Chinese", Japanese, Norse, Celtic, etc.-Every one of them "dragon-tastic". |
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Sep 17 2005, 02:22 PM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 265 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bangkok (sometimes Paris) Member No.: 332 |
I think I haven't been clear and created a slight misunderstanding. For my part, I was required to write 5000 words. I gave a bit less than 8000 to Rob. But save from minor edit corrections, nothing was cut and those 8000 words are in the book. |
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Sep 17 2005, 09:03 PM
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#47
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I don't know if this is the case in any particular instance -- and wouldn't say so if it was -- but do remember that sometimes material is cut from a book because FanPro doesn't think that it's a) high enough quality or b) does not match or mesh well with the tone and purpose of the book. |
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Sep 21 2005, 08:31 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
*Bump*
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Sep 21 2005, 09:24 AM
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#49
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
bumping back to the top for more feed back Synner? ;) sneaky
I have a question while it's back up top though. Going back over the idea of one of my characters doing a world tour of magical sites: Tai'Shan is a very important spot for pilgrimages is it not? How does Lung respond to that? "this is my mountain" or "look but don't touch"? or " don't look to closesly or you may be lunch"? Adam: thanks for the feedback. Here's to hoping |
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Sep 21 2005, 09:29 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
In my imagination Lung would be happy about the constant influx of tasty, international snacks... :ork
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