Snow_Fox
Sep 3 2005, 04:16 PM
Ok, we've got SoA, or at least some of have. We've read it, oir parts. there are a few threads out htere but lets get on the stick gnag and start carving it up.
I've got the middle east going. let's start different threads on the chapters and toss around the good, the bad and the what the heck.
JongWK
Sep 3 2005, 11:31 PM
*cue spaghetti western music*
Good idea. Looking forward to them.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 4 2005, 03:12 AM
I just got it today, about 5 hours ago. Of course, one of the problems with having a wife that's in to the game... I haven't even touched it yet. She's bribing me off with karma. I hate being a karma whore.
KosherPickle
Sep 4 2005, 03:31 AM
Part of me wants to write some reviews on Shadows of Asia. Part of me wants to finish my review of Shadows of Europe. And part of me wants to read my textbooks for classes. I'm totally torn.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 4 2005, 03:35 AM
try NERPS, or NoDoze if you please, and do them all! slacker
Synner
Sep 4 2005, 11:32 AM
QUOTE (KosherPickle @ Sep 4 2005, 03:31 AM) |
Part of me wants to write some reviews on Shadows of Asia. Part of me wants to finish my review of Shadows of Europe. And part of me wants to read my textbooks for classes. |
Well, parts of me want to see those Shadows of Asia reviews and parts of me want to see the rest of the Shadows of Europe reviews. Forget the textbooks. Get your priorities straight, man.
Snow_Fox
Sep 4 2005, 03:22 PM
I'm doing the best I can but a girl can only read and type so much with out looking like a corporate shill.
KosherPickle
Sep 5 2005, 08:11 AM
QUOTE (Synner) |
QUOTE (KosherPickle @ Sep 4 2005, 03:31 AM) | Part of me wants to write some reviews on Shadows of Asia. Part of me wants to finish my review of Shadows of Europe. And part of me wants to read my textbooks for classes. |
Well, parts of me want to see those Shadows of Asia reviews and parts of me want to see the rest of the Shadows of Europe reviews. Forget the textbooks. Get your priorities straight, man. |
This is also Rush week for our Fraternity. I am without time to do anything that isn't half-assed.
Synner
Sep 13 2005, 03:08 PM
*bump*
mfb
Sep 13 2005, 04:28 PM
korea is really neat. i like how the effects of japanese imperialism was handled--very cynical, very twisted, and very, very believable. it's weird how much the korea chapter matches a partial writeup i'd done back when SoA was first announced; i even had an idea similar to the spirit villages, though mine involved Gyeongbokgung 'growing' back to its original (pre-ww2) size. i'm very pleased with how well-researched the chapter is; there are a number of details which makes it feel... authentic, i guess the word is. a lot of stuff that'd be hard to get from just reading about korea on the intarwebs.
i'll review it a bit more thoroughly later on, after rereading the chapter; there are some things i think were missing, but which are forgivable given wordcount constraints. overall, though, korea was really good.
hahnsoo
Sep 13 2005, 06:29 PM
I especially like the entry about Chejudo island (I've always thought that place was kinda creepy). And if anything, Koreans are even MORE addicted to computers and the Internet than reported. Everyone that my mom knows in Korea (relatives, friends, etc.) spend at least 4 hours a day on the thing. My parents spend at least 8 hours a day, I think, but they're also both retired.
The only thing that I would dispute is the whole Christianity bit... Christians (especially the Korean Presbyterian Church) are a fanatic and entrenched segment of the Korean population, and at the very least, they'd be like the Mormons or Southern Baptists, a strong minority voice. I know it's fun to throw the mystic bits around based on indigenous cultures and such, but I find it hard to believe that super-churches like the one my grandfather used to go to (over 30,000 members... the church was like a stadium) would just evaporate. The bit about Moonies being an insect spirit cult got a chuckle from me. I wonder how that all turned out, considering how much money and influence the Unification Church has.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 14 2005, 06:39 AM
one of my biggest wonders in Yuri, the ork head-man of Yamatetsu, and how that turns out in 4th edition. He has this dandy accelerated aging disease. Anyone know how long he lasts? Did he make it to 2070?
I really liked all the different plot threads that get dropped in to the locations for one. Like in Yakut. Before it was just "wow, this place is weird". Now it's "wow, lots happening here! Let's go!"
I'me putting together a page of interesting magical sites I'd like my shaman to visit on his "whirlwing tour of the worlds magical wonders". I was planning on doing this with SoE and T:AL and SoNA, but SoA was a whole friggin page already!
I would have liked some more details in some areas, but I know that's hard with so much to go over. Especially with Japan. I remember thinking "Turkestan!? Who the hell cares, give me more about ****". But I actaully really enjoyed Turkestan. Go figire. I think they ddid a good job of finding something with each.
Wondering what happens to Ibn Eisa after he's ousted.
Mostly, I wish that this could have been two books. Or that they could include everything they edited onto a pdf. THAT would be cool, as there would be no space restirctions. Spec Edt maybe? Holostreets maybe? But I appreciated all of the plot threads.
My main interest is with the thread about the Golden Triangle scattered throughout a few places in the book.
Synner
Sep 14 2005, 11:42 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
Wondering what happens to Ibn Eisa after he's ousted.
Mostly, I wish that this could have been two books. Or that they could include everything they edited onto a pdf. THAT would be cool, as there would be no space restirctions. Spec Edt maybe? Holostreets maybe? But I appreciated all of the plot threads.
My main interest is with the thread about the Golden Triangle scattered throughout a few places in the book. |
That particular thread continues into System Failure.
As for all the missing stuff, I know I cut more than 2000 words from my India draft (I had sooooo much more on Bollywood, the Axis, the Sikhs, Jains, the neo-communist unions and chakraware it's not even funny), I suspect my fellow writers had similar problems. Whether that material will see the light of day is still unknown. Some of it will filter into my future stuff (assuming I get to write future stuff), other might be posted for free, and other yet might find a place on Holostreets depending on how that works out.
Hasagwan
Sep 15 2005, 01:16 PM
Heh, I've enjoyed most of the book. Over all it's well thought out though like others I wish it'd've been split into two books. I'll just make some quick comments on some of the chapters.
China: Overall I think this is my favorite section. The end result is rather a rather nice mix with nothing too out there. And I am so glad they mapped it out like they did. You truly do need a scorecard for that area.
India: Of all the areas to be presented, this has got to be my favorite flavor wise. Very colorful and the color of the people was brought out pretty well. I'd love to send my players there, but I think they'd lynch me for my pure evil thoughts of what I'd do to them.
Russia: Another good section and well written. I think the Yakut one is grand just because the awakened nation finally gets itself into trouble.
Japan: Okay, this is where I've got a problem. I'm sure most of you have seen Lost in Translation. Most foriegners love it. The Japanese hate it because of how it doesn't show anything but on the surface and the fringe groups. I agree with the Japanese. The Japan section comes across as Shadowrun: Lost in Translation.
SE Asia: For the most part this looks good. The blurb on Thailand was a shocker and I applaud the author for realizing the importance of the King in Thailand. I do wish that the cities would have been put after the nations or with them as before is confusing.
Middle East: All I can say is, about damn time!
Others: Okay this is wide. Korea is okay, but it suffers from some lost in translation stuff (not as badly though). Oceana was nice to see included. Turkestan is a bit of a hard pill to swallow given that regions unique problems and area being talked about and I wish it could have been given more detail.
Synner
Sep 15 2005, 10:17 PM
QUOTE (Hasagwan @ Sep 15 2005, 01:16 PM) |
India: Of all the areas to be presented, this has got to be my favorite flavor wise. Very colorful and the color of the people was brought out pretty well. I'd love to send my players there, but I think they'd lynch me for my pure evil thoughts of what I'd do to them. |
That's a great complement. Thanks.
To be honest I was going for flavor over plot (although I got plenty of that in too) because I think the subcontinent is all about it's unique mix of atmosphere, culture and religion. What Jay did with Tibet fit right in too.
I also wanted to play up the potential the Sixth World adds both in terms of staples of 2060's culture (cyberware, crime, etc) and the history (the parallels between Aryan-Indus culture and the Celts and hence the legacies of ED, not to mention the Wheels).
Good to see people liked it.
Snow_Fox
Sep 15 2005, 10:43 PM
flavbor is better than plot hooks. If you have any imagination at all things for plot hooks should jump out but flavor, that is what is needed in an SB
FiveVenoms
Sep 15 2005, 11:16 PM
I was primarily concerned with the SouthEast Asia section, and my immense condolences to the writers who had to work on that section. Squeezing such a huge number of countries into one of the smallest sections of the book must have been a little annoying. I'm curious as to how they decided which 'countries' got their own chapters and which got put in Regional sections.
Still, I did like the fact that a lot of the cultural values and some mythology made it into the settings. I can only assume the writers either read up a lot, or live in the area (ie: Phi Daeng; The Red Ghost). Like the Naga Kingdom fits in with a lot of the Theravada Buddhist mythology in the region (Thailand, I'll confess, being my expertise), and like Hasagwan said, seeing the reference to the "new King of Thailand" made a lot of sense in regards to the impact that would have on people there.
One thing (re: the book as a whole) that I personally really wanted to see.....Some hidden superpower of magic and such in Asia that had nothing to do with either Elves or Dragons. Just given the cultural background of the various countries in Asia, I was vaguely hoping that there would be some non-Eurocentric "Bad Ass from an Ancient Time" holed up somewhere. Having seen firsthand some of the super-mystical, relatively ancient aspects of some (Southeast) Asian cultures, it seemed to me that there would be something stemming from that playing into the whole mystery mystical world of Shadowrun. Instead I got dragons. Which is nice and all, but we've had dragons for a long time, and this was by and large, the first time in about 13 or 15 years of Shadowrun I'd seen an in-depth look (or any look) at Asia. Ah well. I'm done now, carry on.
Prospero
Sep 16 2005, 01:19 AM
There certainly are some bad-asses in Asia that don't have to do with dragons or IEs - look at Yakut. It's some kind of spirit, yeah, but one that uses shapeshifters to enforce it's will and hates metahumanity. And the Thai nagas and the Balinese spirits (and their opponents) are cool and unique. Plus Tibet - who's knows what's up there? For me, that was certainly enough.
In general, I really liked this book - maybe even more than SoE and SoNA, both of which I liked a lot. I knew I was going to really enjoy China and Japan (though China was the better of the two - Japan was nice, but felt a little... I dunno, generic, maybe. Maybe for reasons mentioned above, maybe because a lot of that territory had already been gone over in metaplot since the Ring of Fire plotline in YoTC.) Anyway, what I absolutely loved was all the unexpected areas that got covered - Oceania, Turkestan, Transcaucasia, Khalistan, the two Turkic (Turkish? whatever), nations some of the SE Asia bits. Maybe because they were so unexpected, they really caught me by surprise and I found myself really liking them. There's enough background it insert them easily into a campaign, but its still vague enough that a lot can be done with them. Cool stuff.
I also loved the whole Russia and Yakut thing. I was wondering what was up with Yakut and am glad it isn't just another Awakened nation on the Amazonia template - the shifters really give it its own feel.
And so many people have said they liked India so far that I almost feel I shouldn't bother. But I liked it a lot, too - I guess there, too, I just didn't know what to expect (except for small excerpts about Indian gangs way back in the London sourcebook and a blurb in the SSG). Really well done - cool, but not overblown. I liked the Ganges a lot - SURGE tidal waved. Neat! And the art was well done, too.
On a somewhat related note, once some more magic rules come out with Street Magic (providing they're good), I'm really looking forward to screwing around and making all kinds of cool local magical traditions coming from the Asia book.
Enough. I'm babbling.
otaku mike
Sep 16 2005, 04:18 AM
QUOTE (Hasagwan) |
SE Asia: For the most part this looks good. The blurb on Thailand was a shocker and I applaud the author for realizing the importance of the King in Thailand. I do wish that the cities would have been put after the nations or with them as before is confusing. |
Thank you very much. I was starting to think people glazed over SEAasia because of the lack of comments.
For your information, I did write the section on the cities to be placed after the section on the nations, but they got swapped during edition. For Indochina, if you just read the section on the cities last, it should be a lot less confusing.
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
I was primarily concerned with the SouthEast Asia section, and my immense condolences to the writers who had to work on that section. Squeezing such a huge number of countries into one of the smallest sections of the book must have been a little annoying. I'm curious as to how they decided which 'countries' got their own chapters and which got put in Regional sections. |
I'm not sure myself about what motivated this decision. The very first concern, I guess, is that you can't end up with a 400 pages book. Some sections had to be shorter. With a finite number of pages, I suppose Rob thought there wasn't enough things previously going on in Indochina and Indonesia (with them being just out of decades of war) to justify taking pages from other sections.
Anyway, I was supposed to write about 5000 words for Indochina, and in the end I submitted more like 8000... I could have developed more stuff with more room, but even if the style makes the chapter a bit hacked, I'm still happy with the final result. I believe it managed to convey some of the local flavor, and that was the first priority I assigned myself when writing Indochina.
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
Still, I did like the fact that a lot of the cultural values and some mythology made it into the settings. I can only assume the writers either read up a lot, or live in the area (ie: Phi Daeng; The Red Ghost). Like the Naga Kingdom fits in with a lot of the Theravada Buddhist mythology in the region (Thailand, I'll confess, being my expertise), and like Hasagwan said, seeing the reference to the "new King of Thailand" made a lot of sense in regards to the impact that would have on people there. |
Again, thanks a lot. It's very much appreciated.
For the record, I live in Thailand since 3 years. My wife is Thai. I guess I don't have much merit for knowing this stuff, though I did do a lot of research too.
I hope you'll excuse the minor inconsistency about the name of the Thai king. I couldn't (my wife wouldn't let me) write about the death, even a fictional one, of the current king of Thailand, King Rama 9. So I had to leave a hole in the line of succession and directly jump to Rama 12 and 13 to avoid being disrespectful of the royalty (that would have been a serious crime here).
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
One thing (re: the book as a whole) that I personally really wanted to see.....Some hidden superpower of magic and such in Asia that had nothing to do with either Elves or Dragons. Just given the cultural background of the various countries in Asia, I was vaguely hoping that there would be some non-Eurocentric "Bad Ass from an Ancient Time" holed up somewhere. |
Indeed, as Prospero pointed out, there are some non-IE, non-dragon powerful entities mentioned in the text. In Indochina for instance, the Naga Raja's name should ring a bell to people with knowledge of the local myths. Vasuki is the very first Naga king. Surely this is an ancient and powerful snake
Also, the Master Shedim operating in the Golden Triangle (Kalokdam, "the black skull") could certainly be considered to be dangerous. Finally, there are a lot of things not revealed about Niranam and his special connection to the garudas...
Mike
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 04:45 AM
QUOTE (Synner) |
That particular thread continues into System Failure.
|
Thanks, mock my non-book-having-pain.
"You mock my pain. Never do so again!"
QUOTE |
other might be posted for free, and other yet might find a place on Holostreets depending on how that works out. |
That would be awesome. Holostreets sounds like the perfect venue for that really. I'd hate to see all the work that was put in to these places lost simply because the book got to thick. That's a lot of good material lost.
Is there any reason that information could NOT be put up somewhere? Is it stil ltechnically Fanpro's property, although it was never published? How does that work? Would it just not count as canon if a writer decided to just post it for example, or would that be a legal no-no as well?
FiveVenoms
Sep 16 2005, 05:21 AM
Otaku Mike: Ironic you should say that; my wife is also Thai, and if I were to ever mention something akin to the demise of King Bhumibol Adulyadej, she wouldn't talk to me for months. I can only assume you're to thank for the "Phi Daeng"/Naga etc., that really hit home for someone who is reasonably familiar with the culture of the area.
Prospero + (mainly)Otaku Mike: I will 100% give you credit for supporting the Yakut free spirit Vernya as "creepy only-Asia spiritual stuff", but (and this is ONLY my personal view) but inevitably in any sourcebook "The Laughing Man" or his equivalent will chime in about some particularly rare or dangerous aspect of Shadowrun and that marks it as relevant to the end-all, be-all of the Shadowrun canon. Vernya, however influential in Russia/Yakut, is "just" a free spirit, albeit a powerful one. By virtue of example, Buttercup (of...Yamatetsu?..liquor is inhibiting my recollection powers) is also a free spirit, albeit an enigmatic and powerful one. And Dunkelzahn (if I recall correctly) humiliated her by giving her True Name to some random orc. It's things like these that demote (in my mind) NPCs like Vernya.
I really didn't want some powerful free spirit or some quasi-elven-dragonian subplot. I was hoping there would be some original being of some sort that could theoretically stand toe-to-toe with the best of the uber-Elves, Great Dragons, and their kin. As I mentioned above, the upper echelon of the Shadowrun mythology is very "Eurocentric", and that bothers me when you have a culture, mythology, and background as rich as that of Asia-a previously untapped region of Shadowrun. Of course, ultimately (and therein lies my demise) what I want is a new super-being of ancient times, or at least ancient power, who is aknowledged as being just that; a unique, super-powered creature who is as powerful and influential as the previously existing characters. Sure, Harlequin is the most powerful metahuman mage of our time, but can you imagine how much it would screw with him (and therefore, everyone who knew of him) if he met a character who was his equal/superior yet had a 100% different agenda? Pure Gold.
*ahem* I'm done now. Carry on.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 05:35 AM
Dunky didn't give the ork her true name. He forced her to inhanbit his body for a year (and a day I think) which gave him the knowledge of her name . Then he gave him an amulet that acts as a high rating masking focus. Something that no one else (at least by the books) knows how to do.
As for the spirit, I thought that it was a neat twist to an area that hadn't been developed much. But I do agree that I was hoping for something different than the usual dragons-elves out of asia. But really, what else is there, besides horrors or spirits? Master-shedim still basically fall in to that category as well.
I think what you're looking for is a whole new threat, along the lines of the bugs/Invae, which would be really neat. 'Course they were, in the end, still spirits too. But they were unique.
hahnsoo
Sep 16 2005, 05:47 AM
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
I really didn't want some powerful free spirit or some quasi-elven-dragonian subplot. I was hoping there would be some original being of some sort that could theoretically stand toe-to-toe with the best of the uber-Elves, Great Dragons, and their kin. As I mentioned above, the upper echelon of the Shadowrun mythology is very "Eurocentric", and that bothers me when you have a culture, mythology, and background as rich as that of Asia-a previously untapped region of Shadowrun. Of course, ultimately (and therein lies my demise) what I want is a new super-being of ancient times, or at least ancient power, who is aknowledged as being just that; a unique, super-powered creature who is as powerful and influential as the previously existing characters. |
Adding yet ANOTHER world-powerful awesome being? Ugh. I think the top is crowded as it is. And as far as Asian superhuman power-players, you have Masaru, Lung, Ryumyo, Buttercup, not to mention the more mundane power-players of corporate big-wigs like Aneki and Wu (heck, now you also have the Former-Corporate-Brat Vampire Otaku Empress Hitomi Shiawase); you don't need immortal elves to run a metaplot. The Shadowrun mythology is indeed world-wide... the only continent that isn't given its due is Africa, and they have Mujaji. OT: Antarctica was given its own chapter in Target: Wastelands, but Africa is in bits and pieces all over the canon? How odd.
Besides which, the big power-players in Shadowrun have always been in Asia, through the 5 of the big Ten AAA Megacorps headquartered there (that's half... S-K is the only European one). Although it has been Japan-centric in the early SR history, that's also a staple image from cyberpunk, which was born in a time when there were fears that Japan would eclipse all other industrial nations in economic power. And now, with Wuxing in China and Yamatetsu -> Evo breaking off into Russia, more attention is being paid to non-Japanese Asian powers. If anything, Europe was given lip-service from FASA for a long time, with just the Germany Sourcebook, Tir Na nOg, and the London Sourcebook.
FiveVenoms
Sep 16 2005, 05:52 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
I think what you're looking for is a whole new threat, along the lines of the bugs/Invae, which would be really neat. 'Course they were, in the end, still spirits too. But they were unique. |
Well...yes. That is basically what I wanted. I'll admit to being an enormous Asia culture geek, so I really wanted to see that represented in Shadowrun. A unique presence that was as formidable as any of the "Tokien-esque" races and threats that already existed, partially because of my bias, and partially because we've been waiting (literally) more than ten years for an official overview of this part of the world and all it could contain.
PS: I'm in no position to argue about the facts of Buttercup's mishaps re: Dunkelzahn (seeing as how I'm intoxicated), but hopefully you see my point about free spirits, however poweful, being overshadowed by the superpowers of Shadowrun.
FiveVenoms
Sep 16 2005, 06:10 AM
QUOTE |
Adding yet ANOTHER world-powerful awesome being? Ugh. I think the top is crowded as it is. And as far as Asian superhuman power-players, you have Masaru, Lung, Ryumyo, Buttercup, not to mention the more mundane power-players of corporate big-wigs like Aneki and Wu (heck, now you also have the Former-Corporate-Brat Vampire Otaku Empress Hitomi Shiawase); you don't need immortal elves to run a metaplot. |
Well, that's what I mean. I really wanted, (seeing as how Shadowrun seems to me to be very well-thought out in the terms of mythology vs. fictional reality) to see an Asian superpower play into everything. And all of the big players that you cited is either a dragon, a spirit, or a "normal" human. I was always given the impression that the dragons and elves were on top of everybody's game (based on their comments in the sourcebooks) and it irked me. Sort of like being not only omniscient, but then being an asshole about it. I'd like to see something capable of keeping those characters on their toes as well. World-powerful perhaps, but ideally more restrained-because if nothing else, I agree that the storyline DOES NOT need more complications insofar as people who wheel and deal. I just want to see something that can check these super-elves, etc. Give them a little humility, so to speak.
Prospero
Sep 16 2005, 06:12 AM
In some ways I kinda hope they don't do this, but one thing I thought about for the Yakut section was that the "earth elemental-like things" the Yakut rebels had befriended/used around their headquarters (can't remember the name - somewhere around Lake Baikal? or something?) were the first obsidimen to awake in the SR timeline. I'm generally not all that big on ED creeping into SR, but I have occasionally liked it in the past. Anyway, just a random thought.
Actually, what I originally meant to post on was to say that the groundwork just hasn't been laid in SR for really powerful beings besides IEs and Dragons of various stripes. If there had been something off the scale in Asia, where would it have been in the metaplot up to now? It would be hard, though not impossible, to write in something of an IE or Great Dragon power-level without having any reference to it before. The majority of the GDs and IEs were accounted for early on and haven't changed a whole lot since (besides being fleshed out in some cases). Whenever something else big enters the scene, its a big plot, like Ghostwalker.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 06:14 AM
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
(seeing as how I'm intoxicated), but hopefully you see my point about free spirits, however poweful, being overshadowed by the superpowers of Shadowrun. |
First of all, good for you! SEcond, the one big weakness of spirits is that damn true name which really just acts as that whole Achilles Heel. Sad for them.
For Japan, I'd like to see some kind of technological meance from there. As much as I love Shadowrun magic, I'd like to see some more technological type threats, like Deus. Maybe not as massive in scale per say, but it seems like (once again, besides Deus) all the big threats are magic , except for things like the Human Nation, and the guys trying to bring NA cak to the USA. Personally I'm hoping for something cool with HItomi (akaFormer-Corporate-Brat Vampire Otaku Empress Hitomi Shiawase). Maybe technomancers will be neat. Who knows.
hahnsoo: I'm sure that focus will change with the new edition, if for no other reason than that Synner seems to be everywhere now.
But now that we have more plot devices, and more focus on things like Lowffy, the nobles cabal, Pendragon, the Vory/mafia war. I think one of the things I love about the European setting the most is that it's very busy, has many different influences, and that it's all balanced (in terms of things like magical-techno-normal people threats I mentioned above). I looking forward to seeing that developing more as well.
hahnsoo
Sep 16 2005, 06:26 AM
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
I just want to see something that can check these super-elves, etc. Give them a little humility, so to speak. |
May be coming sooner than you think. Lugh Surehand is mentioned in System Failure as being deposed (details aren't forthcoming yet, but I'm sure we'll see them in a future sourcebook).
In any case, what exactly were you thinking? The return of the Hindu gods? Buddha walking the earth again? The Moa statues climbing out of the earth and ruling from on high? The Flying Spaghetti Monster (okay, that's not Asian... but I like it)? Dragons are a staple fantastic element of many cultures in both Europe and Asia, and SR has chosen the paradigm that dragons are the top of the food chain, literally and figuratively. Also, there are magical elements of the SR universe that transcend mere personal power on Earth, like Totems and the Horrors (through the Horrors, Darke was able to keep even Harlequin in check). It's all a matter of scale, and I think the scale is "big" enough as it is (to the point of being ridiculous)... anything bigger, and then you'd have "Rifts".
Fortune
Sep 16 2005, 06:26 AM
QUOTE (FiveVenoms) |
I just want to see something that can check these super-elves, etc. Give them a little humility, so to speak. |
They seem to be perfectly capable of (and occasionally occupied by) doing that to each other.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 07:21 AM
as far as the elves go, I jsut wanted a change in the status quo. with :
QUOTE |
Lugh Surehand is mentioned in System Failure as being deposed |
, that seems liek a step in the right direction for me. Also with Aithne bieng out of the Tir, Ehran doing his own thing, and a rivalry with Lowfyr and Aithne (maybe rivalry is the wrong word, meh), and spats with people like Aina and Alachia (HATE her, she should push up daisys or something. I stopped hating her for a while, then read Worlds Without... again, hate the character, hated her in ED), seems like a good oppurtunity for them be thorns in their own sides. Spread that power out a bit. Have it more like the dragons plotting against each other in the shadows. Which seems appropriate with their roots and all....
BTW, any more going to be forth coming on Ms. Blatvska (spelling ?) of the AF? Sounds like a good candidate as another IE, especially since she's identified as being 'Hecate' in LA, and 'Hecate' was talking with all those big movers in The Aztlan SB. I liked that 'Hecate' better as Alachia. God forbid they somehow be one and the same. Didn't one of those files from the FASA give away identify that Hecate as being Alachia? Was that not used since it wasn't 'official'.
Fortune
Sep 16 2005, 07:56 AM
AFAIK Blatavska = Hecate = Alachia.
I know that AH was inclined to believe it could also have been Aina for a while, but I think he's since come to realise that can't be the case.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 08:04 AM
I KNEW I hated her for a good reason!
Thanks Fortune, you just put SO many pieces in place for me. Now I hate her even MORE. Iswear to god I'm going to keep playing the same PC for YEARS until I can kill her. Hate her worst than cows.
hahnsoo
Sep 16 2005, 08:43 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
seems like a good oppurtunity for them be thorns in their own sides. |
Thorns... hah!
otaku mike
Sep 16 2005, 09:11 AM
FiveVenoms: Could you be more specific and name one or more indigenous creature or entities that you think would be on par with Great Dragons and IEs?
After a quick mental search, I think most big "beasties" are reptiles, if not dragons, in Asia too. Asia also has its share of giants, ogres, and superhuman heros. Hanuman is a special case. I hinted at it in Indochina in the intro when I mention the "rare white dours" among the local sentient species... Another idea that I couldn't develop further due to the lack of space...
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 09:12 AM
hehehe
Now of only we could get Aithne's bitter "ooh, I'm an angry immortal that hates roses" attitude directed at the stupid queen of roses, I would be a happy camper
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 10:09 AM
QUOTE (otaku mike) |
FiveVenoms: Could you be more specific and name one or more indigenous creature or entities that you think would be on par with Great Dragons and IEs? After a quick mental search, I think most big "beasties" are reptiles, if not dragons, in Asia too. Asia also has its share of giants, ogres, and superhuman heros. Hanuman is a special case. I hinted at it in Indochina in the intro when I mention the "rare white dours" among the local sentient species... Another idea that I couldn't develop further due to the lack of space... |
I'm pretty lacking on asian culture Mike ol' buddy. Sometimes I like to pretend I'm not, but wacha gonna do. 'Spose you could explain what/who "Hanuman " is,and what you mean by "rare white dours" for those of us less inclined to dreg up their google-fu? Some of us clueless need a bit of assistance. Danke
otaku mike
Sep 16 2005, 11:15 AM
In a nutshell, Hanuman is a legendary hero present in various version of a buddhist epic tale. His the king of the monkey people, and has superhuman strenght, as well as various magical items. The Chinese legend which Dragonball is originally based on feature a variant of Hanuman, the Monkey-man. Hanuman is known from India to Southeast Asia to parts of China. And important detail, his fur is all white.
edit: and the Dour is a SR critter that is an Awakened monkey, sometimes rumored to be sentient.
Mike
Synner
Sep 16 2005, 11:24 AM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Sep 16 2005, 06:14 AM) |
hahnsoo: I'm sure that focus will change with the new edition, if for no other reason than that Synner seems to be everywhere now. |
I'm not sure everyone would be pleased with that development...
I'm going to take this opportunity to mention something again. I think people might be underestimating the way Rob and the current group of freelancers have collectively been taking the game. The way plot and setting development is done today is a lot more organic and multifaceted than it was under previous line developers.
I think
SoE and
SoA as well as
Loose Alliances and
System Failure are good examples of the mix Rob has been guiding us towards in terms of integrating multiple styles/power levels and a wide variety of players/threats with different but co-existing agendas.
And it goes beyond development style: I loved the FASA material (its why I got into freelancing), but as a long time fan following the material, I always got the impression that at some point in the development process someone would decide "this book will be epic" or "this book will be street level" or the last book was "magic-oriented" so the next one has to be "tech-oriented" or "corp intrigue". This always struck a nerve with me because I've always felt Shadowrun's strength is in the mix and crosspolination of all those elements.
I think most books should include as many of those elements as possible because they not only co-exist in the Sixth World but they constantly interact. This is one of the reasons when
Loose Alliances came round, I submitted stuff as diverse as the Vigilia, Brokerage X and the Fascists. Its also the reason that being able to team two seemingly disparate threats like Pax and Winternight in
System Failure was a dream come true - the perfect example of how bi-polar and yet consistent the Shadowrun world could be.
Fortunately (for me) this seems to be the way Rob likes things too. Make no mistake, I end up writing what Rob allows me to. But ultimately yeah, I'll continue to play up the mix in any future writing as long as I'm allowed.
QUOTE |
But now that we have more plot devices, and more focus on things like Lowffy, the nobles cabal, Pendragon, the Vory/mafia war. I think one of the things I love about the European setting the most is that it's very busy, has many different influences, and that it's all balanced (in terms of things like magical-techno-normal people threats I mentioned above). I looking forward to seeing that developing more as well. |
Those are good examples of what I was talking about above, stuff like the noble's cabal, the Vory/Mafia war, even Spinrad vs. Lofwyr and Pendragon come from weaving threads and interesting ideas coming from a bunch of different people. I really can't take the credit, even when the writing has my name to it - this was a collective effort.
Most of the material in SoE was co-developed by several people working together (which is why it weaves through different chapters), but the same holds true for SoA. Major contributions from Jay Levine and Jennifer Kitzman were fundamental to the way the Ganges, the Orissa network and Hindu magic turned out, all I did was wed them with my own ideas. Similarly, when writing Russia, Jon Szeto was nice enough to follow on the Rolf Bremen story seeded in my DotSW/Lofwyr material as well as the Polish situation introduced in SoE. Joćo Nunes (who co-wrote Poland in SoE) plugged the missing jyortlinga plot in his central Asia material. And Mikel Brodu's Golden Triangle cartels flow into the Mansur brotherhood in India and Joćo's Kabul maffiya. This kind of organic integration is what I really like in recent FanPro's books and it extends beyond plots and players to the realm of rules (ie. Speaker adepts being "unmasked" in game, the WMI in SoE, AR tech in SOTA64 and SoA, UMT preparing the way in DotSW and SOTA64).
Rant mode off... and now back to our regular broadcast...
Synner
Sep 16 2005, 11:33 AM
QUOTE (otaku mike) |
In a nutshell, Hanuman is a legendary hero present in various version of a buddhist epic tale. His the king of the monkey people, and has superhuman strenght, as well as various magical items. The Chinese legend which Dragonball is originally based on feature a variant of Hanuman, the Monkey-man. Hanuman is known from India to Southeast Asia to parts of China. And important detail, his fur is all white. |
Hanuman is a figure originally from Hindu mythology. The Monkey-God/trickster hero and Krishna's devoted warrior sidekick. While a minor figure in terms of pantheon hierarchy, he became one of the most popular elements and one of the most revered dieties in India and its subject states in SE Asia (and remains so today). So much so in fact, that when Buddhism became popular a few thousand years later it adopted Hanuman and took him with it as it spread through continental Asia.
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 16 2005, 11:53 AM
wow, thanks guys. Ask for a little info..... nice.
I'll have to read back over that section again. See what more I can get out of it second time around.
Synner: One of the things I am defintely looking forward to in SR4 is the product info on different setting besides Seattle. I know Hong Kong has been identified as one (which I'm stoked about). What I'm wondering is how many , or to what extent I guess I should say, these seperate plot threads will be brought under the magnifine glass. Are we going to see something similar to the Shadows of... for each, or more along the lines of New Seattle, but for different locales?
I guess my biggest beef with SoA is that I wanted more! I ceratinly understand the constraints on the hardcopy, and I knwo that by far the majority of it will never be used in a game (directly at least). But I keep reading thinks like Mike saying he had to drop some 3,000 words, you had a few thousand, DE/Jay had a few MORE thousand. That's a lot of lost material. It was great having little gems and seeds, like the mana storms showing up in Polynesians islands, and no one knows why. Open ended threads that can be used in any way. That's good stuff. But little tidbits like that make me wonder what else was missing.
Really I guess I'm just saying more of the same, that (I'm assuming ) many of us would like to see what was left out, and things like Holostreets could be an excellent resource. Even if Fanpro was to put out say an SoA expansion on pdf only for say $5-10, I'm sure there'd be people that would pick it up, and it would be minimal hassle for Fanpro, being that they already have everything written, and only need to compile and convert it. Much less work than the dead tree edition. Just my thoughts. THink I'll go home and sleep now.
Synner
Sep 16 2005, 12:13 PM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
Are we going to see something similar to the Shadows of... for each, or more along the lines of New Seattle, but for different locales? |
If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say a mix of both - but don't hold me to it.
QUOTE |
Really I guess I'm just saying more of the same, that (I'm assuming ) many of us would like to see what was left out, and things like Holostreets could be an excellent resource. Even if Fanpro was to put out say an SoA expansion on pdf only for say $5-10, I'm sure there'd be people that would pick it up, and it would be minimal hassle for Fanpro, being that they already have everything written, and only need to compile and convert it. Much less work than the dead tree edition. |
That is one of several potential sellpoints for Holostreets and the subscription service with this sort of material would help tide hardcore fans over between hardcopy books. I guess we'll have to see what final form it takes though since last we heard deals were still being finalized.
And now back to Shadows of Asia, before this thread is further derailed.
FiveVenoms
Sep 16 2005, 01:19 PM
Fine....you've forced my hand into admitting you all make some excellent points. So....where to start before I crawl back to sleep-there really is no plot precedent for any of my would-be super-powers. I'll be the first to admit that it's more or less wishful thinking. Hahnsoo makes the very good point that dragons exist in a lot of different cultures, in varying degrees of interpretation (again, going to Thailand as an example, there are people who believe fire breathing serpents live in the rivers even today), so it makes sense. I actually like the dragons. Ever since the whole "Dunkelzahn's Will" plot I've appreciated them a lot more. After that, there's the fact that there really isn't a good precedent for some Asian superpower outside of their mythology that I'm aware of. Even popular modern fiction in the 'fantasy' setting in China etc, that I'm aware of is mostly based out of their mythology.
QUOTE (Otaku Mike @ Sep 16 2005, 04:11 AM) |
FiveVenoms: Could you be more specific and name one or more indigenous creature or entities that you think would be on par with Great Dragons and IEs? |
As you say; there's the issue. It makes for an amusing mental image, but I can't see, say, General Kwan stepping up to the plate to manipulate corporations, or a Yak being anything besides a scary giant with a huge sword. Prarahoo (sp? Big black ogre god?) might work, Naga have already been tackled, ditto w/Garuda, The "Monkey King"/Hanuman?........well, yeah I could, but for all of the huge assortment of gods, goddesses, creatures, etc. that I could cite, in light of what you all said, it does make more sense to accept IEs and dragons and move along. Realistically, this is more a case of me personally being disgruntled with the IEs as the upper echelon of the SR canon-and Asia being a big place, I was hoping for a 'counter' for that. I'll admit it's not the most logical wish, but (and some people here may have actually HAD this experience) if your mad desires actually show up in print, you are eternally vindicated.
However, if you actually wanted me to come up with a "plausible", researched, historically or mythologically based, non-dragon concept, I'd be happy to, but again, the tendency does seem to be towards big powerful lizards in a lot of cultures....oddly enough.
QUOTE (Hahnsoo @ Sep 16 2005, 01:26 AM) |
May be coming sooner than you think......Lugh Surehand Deposed etc.... |
Still, maybe I'll get my wish regardless, when this plot line pans out. Incidentally, thanks for humoring me everyone.
Synner
Sep 16 2005, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (FiveVenoms @ Sep 16 2005, 01:19 PM) |
however, if you actually wanted me to come up with a "plausible", researched, historically or mythologically based, non-dragon concept, I'd be happy to, but again, the tendency does seem to be towards big powerful lizards in a lot of cultures....oddly enough. |
I'm not sure I agree with you in regards to such a tencdency. In fact I thought dragons, besides Lung and Ryumyo, were pretty down-played in SoA. On the other hand you'll find references to the Pandawas of Bali, the power behind Yakut's White Rock, whatever's active in Tibet, the Ganga Ma and the Orissa network, the Angkor naga kingdom, etc. There's plenty to play with regards to local mystical powers.
hahnsoo
Sep 16 2005, 02:52 PM
I think he's saying that a lot of real-life cultures have the odd tendancy to display flying lizards of mythic proportions, not that SoA had a lot of dragon activity.
FiveVenoms
Sep 16 2005, 06:01 PM
QUOTE (hahnsoo) |
I think he's saying that a lot of real-life cultures have the odd tendancy to display flying lizards of mythic proportions, not that SoA had a lot of dragon activity. |
Yes-That's what I was getting at. Aztec, "Chinese", Japanese, Norse, Celtic, etc.-Every one of them "dragon-tastic".
otaku mike
Sep 17 2005, 02:22 PM
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0) |
(...)But I keep reading thinks like Mike saying he had to drop some 3,000 words, you had a few thousand, DE/Jay had a few MORE thousand. That's a lot of lost material. |
I think I haven't been clear and created a slight misunderstanding. For my part, I was required to write 5000 words. I gave a bit less than 8000 to Rob. But save from minor edit corrections, nothing was cut and those 8000 words are in the book.
Adam
Sep 17 2005, 09:03 PM
QUOTE |
Even if Fanpro was to put out say an SoA expansion on pdf only for say $5-10, I'm sure there'd be people that would pick it up, and it would be minimal hassle for Fanpro, being that they already have everything written, and only need to compile and convert it. Much less work than the dead tree edition. Just my thoughts. THink I'll go home and sleep now. |
I don't know if this is the case in any particular instance -- and wouldn't say so if it was -- but do remember that sometimes material is cut from a book because FanPro doesn't think that it's a) high enough quality or b) does not match or mesh well with the tone and purpose of the book.
Synner
Sep 21 2005, 08:31 AM
*Bump*
fistandantilus4.0
Sep 21 2005, 09:24 AM
bumping back to the top for more feed back Synner?
sneaky
I have a question while it's back up top though. Going back over the idea of one of my characters doing a world tour of magical sites: Tai'Shan is a very important spot for pilgrimages is it not? How does Lung respond to that? "this is my mountain" or "look but don't touch"? or " don't look to closesly or you may be lunch"?
Adam: thanks for the feedback. Here's to hoping
Oracle
Sep 21 2005, 09:29 AM
In my imagination Lung would be happy about the constant influx of tasty, international snacks...