The Idiot's Guide To The Matrix Thread, Support for the Matrix-challenged Options

[gknoy]

[mfb]

you don't roll your computer skill to make attacks. you roll the rating of the attack program. while decking, any task pool you might have is, i believe, simply added directly to your hacking pool. task pool from an encephalon is, at any rate. you can find the details in Matrix, under the pools heading in the characters section. towards the front of the book, don't remember what page.

[Synner]

[Synner]

Back to the run...

The raptor wheels above scraping the node's ceiling, chrome wings beating virtual air currents and talons spread as it dives in towards its target. Laser beam eyes lock onto Cheng's Icon painting two red dots on her ample bossom as programmed ear-ripping screech comes from its matte-black beak.

The Trace IC has entered Hunt Cycle (per the rules in Matrix page 104), this means engaging in cybercombat. The hawk rolls the Host's Security Rating for the attack. This is modified by +2 because of Cheng's previous Redirect datatrails (Matrix, page 105) and a further +1 (thanks to the Party Cluster option and the residual effect of the Oni-Do IC's presence). The roll fails miserably with none of the dice coming up over 5. The Trace has failed to lock on.

Cheng sidesteps elegantly out of the way of the chrome bird of prey and the hawk screeches in apparent fury as its gleeming claws cut the empty air where the decker had been.

Cheng's move comes round on Action Phase 20...

[Eyeless Blond]

This thread is so cool! I'm a real newbie to SR (just started looking through the core books about a week ago), and when I first looked at the chapters on rigging and decking my eyes completely glazed over. After reading through both of the sample runs here though I think I have enough of a grounding now to actually understand what's going on in the book itself. Thanks a bunch guys!

To add my two :nuyen: on the subject of weapons, I like the ruling that you roll your skill rating, and the utility rating is the power of the attack. That's pretty much how every other attack works in the game and it'd be a shame to have deckers' attack be entirely different in that regard. As for the staging rules, the way you guys are doing them now (comparing the number of successes first, *then* staging damage as appropriate) is consistent with how damage is staged for all other forms of attack (see page 113 in the Core rules for example). Again, maybe it's just my opinion, but the SR rules should favor consistency, particularly in abstract matters like staging damage and weapon attacks.

As for healing and the Medic program, I'm not really familiar with other types of healing in SR, but, again IMO the rules should favor consistency between similar effects. The closest analogue I can think of for the decker's Medic program is magical healing, which fortunately for us is well-specified (the rules for magical Heal and Treat Injury are all over the place.) Looking at the Heal and Treat spells themselves (p. 193-4 in Core rules), we see that a skill test is made against the injuries, and the number of successes are healed from the target, to a maximum number equal to the Force of the spell. If the Medic program for a decker is to work in a consistent way, it would work by:

1. The decker rolls his Decking skill with a TN of his icon's injuries. (Interestingly enough, this means that, since you're healing yourself, your would modify the TN by the damage done to your Condition Monitor.)
2. The number of successes are subtracted from injuries, to a maximum of the medic utility's rating.
3. The medic program loses 1 point of Rating per use, just as it specifies in the utility description itself.
4. (Optional) As with all other healing, once you've used the Medic utility once you cannot use it again to heal the same damage. Any damage to your icon that remains after running the Medic utility must be healed "naturally" (however that is; nowhere in the Core Rules does it talk about anything other than Medic being able to heal icon damage. Maybe by using Cumputer(programming) skill over long periods of time?)

That's how I would have the utility work if I were writing up the core rules myself. Of course, it's not how the utility *actually* works, but IMO it would be more internally consistent and therefore easier to understand as a whole. It would also promote a kind of rules mastery, in that once you understand how some game effects work then that understanding can be applied directly to other aspects of the game. This is one of the very, very few things that the d20 system does well, and SR would only be better off for learning from that system's success.

[Dashifen]

Using up 1 of my 2 remaining hacking pool for this combat turn to supress the Oni-do IC, I need to save the other pool die to supress the Trace IC when I crash it as well. So, I'm out of pool dice for this turn. Plus, I now have 4 hacking pool dice currently in use to supress previously crashed IC.

Since I go first, I'm just going to try and crash the trace IC with two simple actions to attack. I could use a position attack maneuver to try and take it out in one hit, but if I fail the maneuver, it's next attack is more dangerous for me rather than mine more dangerous for it, and that's a risk I'm not willing to take since I have to remain online to act on overwatch for the rest of my group.

So, using my free action to maintain the previously made monitored operations, my two simple actions to attack utilize no pool dice and only my decking skill of 7:

Attack one: 08 08 05 04 01 01 01
Attack two: 16 09 09 07 07 05 01

Hopefully between those two attacks, I'll be able to remove the trace IC, supress it and get on with the business at hand. If I can crash it, then hopefully any wound modifiers that it ends up dealing with will make it that much harder to hit me and enter the trace IC location cycle.

Turning from the flashing remenants of the Oni-do's code and moving to stay out of the raptor's searching beams, Cheng leaps into the air preparing an overhand smash at the IC with her code katana.

... kode katana perhaps?

[mfb]

ah. haven't been following this thread. for personal taste, i'd prefer using the skill of the decker to make attacks, but the rules--to me--more clearly support rolling the rating. this also makes sense given the source material for the game setting--that is, the neuromancer trilogy, in which attack programs did operate pretty much independently. however, it's been noted by many people that gibson is about as knowledgeable about computers as i am about being a girl. which is to say, only what i've heard from others.

[Digital Heroin]

That and Nueromancer is not Shadowrun...

[Abstruse]

I personally look at the Medic program as the computer equivilent of a MedKit, which has a set rating which is used in place of the Biotech skill when using its self-diagnosis to determine a treatment. The Medic program runs through its routines and checks for damaged code in the Icon program. It then repairs these flaws by moving its own code into the damaged areas (thus explaining the reduction in rating after each use until it's reloaded from memory). It does all this automatically as the decker hardly has the time in the middle of a run to start going through thousands of millions of lines of code to find the corrupted blocks and replacing them. Therefore, you use the rating of the program instead of the skill of the decker.

Weapons, however, are tools that do damage. The code infects the target program's Icon and corrupts it. The skill of the decker can make these attacks more effective by targeting specific areas of the icon (just like aiming a gun for a specific part of the body to do more damage), thus damaging the code at a more effective level. To give it a contemporary equivilent, it'd be like hacking a computer. Sure, you have to have programs to do it (wardialers, scripted brute force programs to crack the password, etc.), but a skilled hacker can make better use of these tools to do damage to the system than an inexperienced hacker with the exact same tools.

The other interpretation works just as logically of course, if not moreso. An attack program is basically a virus, and a virus does just as much damage when it's used by a novice to infect a system as an expert hacker. It's the effectiveness of the code itself.

Personally, I'd just sit down with your GM/player and figure out which ruling you like better until an official clarification comes out. I still prefer using the skill personally as it is more consistant with all the other combat rules (as stated previously). It's your game though and it's up to you to decide.

Enough debate...let's get on with the action! Is the team hosed, or is their decker going to pull it off at the last minute? Let's find out....

The Abstruse One

[CirclMastr]

[insert Hosed smiley here] :D

[Synner]

Cheng's runesword comes arcs round, flashing in the dull orange light of the Passive Alert...

Cheng's target for the Trace IC is base 5 because she's targeting a Legitimate Icon on the Orange Host (SR3 page 224); however because this IC is using the Party Cluster Option (from Matrix page 86) and since the effects of Party Clusters remain even when component IC are destroyed, the base target number for the attack is elevated to 7 (5+2 = 1 Oni-Do IC in the Party Cluster and another for a surprise).

That leaves Cheng with 2 successes in her first roll and five in her second! The IC only has a puny Icon Damage Resistance Test to offset the attack but it doesn't look good. The IC rolls the system Security Value (10) and gets 2 successes on the first roll against the Attack Program's Rating/Power (6) meaning the first slash does base Serious. Rolling against the second attack produces only 1 success which means the second strike does Deadly Damage.

Cheng's blade elegantly cleaves through one of the Chrome bird's wings, leaving a trail of damaged code in the air as it twists back and cuts again shattering the IC's core routines with a second powerful backhanded slice. The Raptor's routines shatter and send loose codelines sprawling...

At this point I would like to call everyone's attention back to my post halfway down Page 14 in reply to Cheng's Analyze query...

... however before Cheng can codeloop them they flash suddenly and shrink back into a black ball, spinning very fast and sprouting venomous green spikes.

... And here's the Trapped Killer IC that Cheng detected (also part of the Party Cluster which explains Cheng's target 7 above). I'll continue this post later.

[mfb]

hahaha, neuromancer isn't shadowrun. hee hee hee. you said it with a straight face, too.

[Synner]

Before I continue I'd like to hear some interpretations of when you guys think released Trap IC should act per the writeup of the Option on page 86 of Matrix, I have my own opinion but I don't want to bias anyone:

a) "immediately" meaning in the same action as the Trapped IC is destroyed.
b) "immediately" as in a new Initiative is rolled and new round of cybercombat is initiated.
c) "immediately" as in what would have been the destroyed IC's next Action Phase.
d) something else.

[Dashifen]

Most common that I've seen are (b) and ©. I personally use (b). I could see an arguement for (a) if the character wasn't aware of the trap, but otherwise, they should see it comming and then be ready for its apperance.

Edit --- I didn't want a copyright symbol, I want the letter 'c' in parenthesis, but my browse automatically assumed things that I didn't want it to. Just in case others do as well.

This post has been edited by Dashifen: Mar 17 2004, 12:25 AM

[gknoy]

[Gorath]

I don't think the problem is browserside. The board software changes ( c ) into ©. Even if emoticons are off.

[Synner]

Anyone else has a relevant comment on the question at hand before we continue?

[hobgoblin]

personaly i have allways read it like A, but i have not looked at those rules for some time now...

[Synner]

Personally I've always played it as A because otherwise 90% of game situations Initiative would amount to giving the decker the chance to hit it the IC hard before it ever got to act and render the Trap IC almost useless. Normally I rule that "immediately" means the Trap IC is triggered as soon as the first IC is destroyed (which also matches the "immediate" effect description of spells, poisons and other stuff).

However Dashifen does raise an interesting point. It could be treated slightly different if the decker has detected the presence of the Trap (even though he'd wouldn't have been forced to fight the Trace IC - he could have Evaded- so it was ultimately his call to trigger the Trap).

[Shockwave_IIc]

Actually immediatley in the case of poisons is end of current combat turn.

Which as i side note, is also how i take trap IC to work

[Dashifen]

[gknoy]

[hobgoblin]

hmm, can someone point me to a page refrence for the traped ice rules? i cant seem to find them...

i realy dont see the problem of option A tho. the trap is more or less springloaded, just like a trap on a door or chest in D&D. dont disable it and you get bitten by it the moment you trigger it.

[Synner]

As I mentioned in my original post regarding this issue the rules for the Trap IC Option are on page 86 of Matrix.

[hobgoblin]

oops, my bad :)

hmm, looks like they trigger and then go into genral combat mode rather then getting a free attack so most likley they get a normal initiative roll and any action above the trigger point can either be held or lost if its more then one initiative phase down in the turn.

i now support the C scenario. basicly the decker watch as a new ice icon rise out of the wreckage of the old, eyes light up and lock on.