Improvised Astral Weapons, Trolls who hit spirits with people Options

[hyzmarca]

Since reading the Cannon Companion rules for improvised weapons I have considered creating a Troll that specializes in grabbing people by the ankles and hitting other people with them, just for laughs.

However, an interesting situation came to mind. Say I have an Astrally Percieving Troll adept with Unarmed/metahuman body 4/10. This Troll is being attacked in Astral Combat by a spirit and, out of instinct, grabs the nearest Ghoul by the ankles.

Metahuman do Bod+2 M stun damage when wielded as a weapon in physical space but what kind of damage does a metahuman astral form do?

[Aardvark892]

Holy smokes, that's gotta be the question of the year! Sorry I don't have anything interesting to add to this thread... I'm waiting for the rules guru's to respond, too! Cheers!

Tim

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

In SR3... Nothing. Unless the weapon is an astrally active magician, they just pass right through them.

[frostPDP]

MAD props on this one. Very good idea.

A magically active person might do damage, but then again going from the notion that cyberware is unnatural, poisons the Astral body, blather blather....Does it mean that a heavily cybered person would also do damage?

For a Cyberzombie the answer becomes fairly clear, I think. The Cybermancy rituals rock the spirit.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Well, CZs are also dual natured. However, I dare you to find someone who can grab one by the ankles and swing them around.

But a cybered individual would make no more of an impression than a mundane.

[hyzmarca]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

[fistandantilus4....]

so what happens if an adept with astral perception shoots a bullet at a spirit and the bullet has ... say... an astral armor spell sustained on it? normal damage? Depend on spells force?

[frostPDP]

Probably umm...Force would probably be power, and I'd say it would retain medium damage. But that's a clever, clever, CLEVER idea. How would that work? Who knows. I say what I did because if the spell's force is defended against it becomes a normal bullet, no damage. If it isn't, then its essentially an astral bullet, so the base damage code would remain.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

I'd treat it as astral combat between the Spirit and the Spell the same way it would occur if the spirit tried to break through a barrier spell.

I've seen barrier spells used as weapons, but I can't for the life of me recall what the Damage Level used was.

[fistandantilus4....]

my idea for it (not really thought out, jsut a thought) would be something like What Frost suggested, power=force, because a weaker spell on the astral wouldn't be as tough (as in dense or hard) as a bullet in the physical plane is. So it wouldn't hit as hard. I specifically said a barrier spell BTW for the same reason, to make it something "hard" that is hitting the astral form, like a weapon foci would be. It doesn't make any sense that any spell on a bullet would hurt (like say invisibilty), because then it's just spell splat to the spirit. But Astral barrier, or more specifially even spirit barrier makes sense to me. Hope that attempt at an explanation makes some sense.

[RangerJoe]

If any of the freelancers/writers read this thread, be advised: this kind of question (damage code for an astrally active metahuman body) is a great test of how streamlined/consistant/intelligent the SR4 rules are. If the SR4 magic book or the SR4 weapons book has an answer for this question, it will mean that the rules are rational, consistant, and of high quality. Good luck!

[Herald of Verjig...]

SR3 has a clear answer to this question, just no one who asks likes to hear it. SR3 176 explains the optimal case for trying to shoot astrally active bullets at a non-materialized target. However, the bullet will not be an active patricipant in any astral combat it gets involved in, so the spirit can sidestep a few meters whenever it wants and get out of the way. The only way this can be used to force the spirit to fight the spell on the bullet is if the spirit is already trapped in all other possible directions by wards that are stronger than the spell on the bullet.

[blakkie]

What if the Troll is not awakened? He'd have mad TN penalties, but if he was attacking the right spot his ghoul-club would still work, yes?

[Ancient History]

Theoretically yes it is possible. If a very perceptive troll recognized the tell-tale sparkle of a spirit in the astral, grabbed a ghoul and swung it through the area, the spirit might (might!) be hit.

That said, astral combat doesn't have much to do with physical combat on most levels, as Herald neatly points out. Three dimensional-movement at tremendous speeds at a whim, not hampered by physical obstructions, tends to make dodging such an attack relatively easy.

Even if you allow it, your target might decide to...er...break your weapon...if the impact doesn't do that as well. A ghoul that hits a fire elemental is going to get burned.

[UpSyndrome]

Not to pick apart the post or anything cause I think it's a grand idea, but he couldn't have clubs (metahuman bodies) 4 (10) because the specialization can't exceed twice the base skill rating with the notable exception of 1 (3).

-Joe

[wagnern]

Is there not an astraly active bacteria? If so this could be used to make a good spirit bashen club.

You know, there has to be a army of resirchers trying to develop/discover a microbe that give of light (in a mundane way) when exposed to spirit energy. Then you could build 'Spirit goggles' so the mundanes can see astral. (you just have to find a way to focus the energy onto a screen of these microbes and they would give of light which could be formed into images.)

[Zeel De Mort]

Things like this already exist. See FAB Strain-I, II and III, in MitS, MitS, and Threats respectively. :)

... and you can't use them to make a club for bashing spirits!


This post has been edited by Zeel De Mort: May 13 2005, 06:22 PM

[Apathy]

If we determined that striking an unmanifested spirit with a ghoul is possible (and I don't see why it wouldn't be, since the same astrally-percieving adept could strike the spirit with a [dual natured] weapons focus...
[list]
[*]what kind of reach modifier would they get?
[*]would it be less for dwarves-turned-into-ghouls than for trolls-turned-into-ghouls?
[*]would you use you strength (like with most weapon foci) or your will (your astral strength) or the ghoul's charisma (his/her astral bod)?

[Nikoli]

ROFL, great question.

And they are right, can't do 4/10 and by the nature of grabbing anything and swinging it, you are no longer "unarmed". This would likely be Club/Improvised Weapons or Club/Metahuman skill.

Man, what would that fight look like, also surged works well for this as well if the poor slitch got stuck with dual-natured.

I would say for purposes of the fight, you drop the dmg code down a notch because under normal circumstances, a metahuman body does (STR)M stun dmg, but spirits are immune to stun. So drop it to (STR)L physical dmg and you've got a weapon.

Of course, now I have this image of a spirit grabbing a ghoul and whacking a troll with it, then the ghoul duel ensues...

Also, for damage, I think Your Str plus half the "club's" charisma

[Herald of Verjig...]

The actual combat would be between the ghoul and the spirit. You use the ghoul's strength (I think, need to reread dual natured attacks against spirits) and unarmed skill. The troll would just be there for effect.

[edit]Yes, SR3 page 174 mentions that dual natured types use all their attributes as in normal combat and the chart on 175 states the damage would just be (Str)M.

[Charon]

That's an entertaining thought.

You better work with your GM so that situations like that occur in game, though.

Unless you carry knocked out ghouls in your backback, you might find that you rarely have a dual natured being conveniently within reach when a spirit attack.

[Nikoli]

Grab the body of the astrally projecting mage?

[Herald of Verjig...]

No good, the body isn't dual natured, it's empty. Astrally percieving mage works, as does devilrat. Actually, I'd suggest a devilrat if you want a club-like dual natured object. The big rodents will attack almost anything, and that will include the spirit you swing it through (and the troll, but that's why you have armor).

[Charon]

If he's projecting, his body isn't dual natured. If he's just perceiving though...

GM to mage : You are perceiving a fire elemental two meter ahead of you.
Mage : "Guys, there's a dematerialized elemental right in front of us"
Troll player : I grab the mage and swing in front of me in a large arc.
Mage player : Hey, you might kill me.
Troll player : I'm willing to take that chance.

EDIT : That's in honor of one my player who once stated his willingness to risk the life of his partner in a situation not entirely different from that one. It still makes me laugh.