Since reading the Cannon Companion rules for improvised weapons I have considered creating a Troll that specializes in grabbing people by the ankles and hitting other people with them, just for laughs.
However, an interesting situation came to mind. Say I have an Astrally Percieving Troll adept with Unarmed/metahuman body 4/10. This Troll is being attacked in Astral Combat by a spirit and, out of instinct, grabs the nearest Ghoul by the ankles.
Metahuman do Bod+2 M stun damage when wielded as a weapon in physical space but what kind of damage does a metahuman astral form do?
Full Version: Improvised Astral Weapons
Holy smokes, that's gotta be the question of the year! Sorry I don't have anything interesting to add to this thread... I'm waiting for the rules guru's to respond, too! Cheers!
Tim
Tim
In SR3... Nothing. Unless the weapon is an astrally active magician, they just pass right through them.
MAD props on this one. Very good idea.
A magically active person might do damage, but then again going from the notion that cyberware is unnatural, poisons the Astral body, blather blather....Does it mean that a heavily cybered person would also do damage?
For a Cyberzombie the answer becomes fairly clear, I think. The Cybermancy rituals rock the spirit.
A magically active person might do damage, but then again going from the notion that cyberware is unnatural, poisons the Astral body, blather blather....Does it mean that a heavily cybered person would also do damage?
For a Cyberzombie the answer becomes fairly clear, I think. The Cybermancy rituals rock the spirit.
Well, CZs are also dual natured. However, I dare you to find someone who can grab one by the ankles and swing them around.
But a cybered individual would make no more of an impression than a mundane.
But a cybered individual would make no more of an impression than a mundane.
| QUOTE (Crimsondude 2.0) |
| In SR3... Nothing. Unless the weapon is an astrally active magician, they just pass right through them. |
Which is why I said that the weapon was a Ghoul. A living ghoul who may or may not be conscious. It would also work for a shapeshifter.
(I'd assume a conscious ghoul's attempts to escape the troll's grans would result in a TN penality.)
WIL +2 M seems like the best bet since willpower is the astral equivilant of body.
I just got this image in my head of a Troll wearing a doped-up and straight-jacketed ravenous sub-sentient ghoul on his back like a Claymore and it is hillarious
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 13 2005, 02:15 AM) | ||
Which is why I said that the weapon was a Ghoul. |
I saw nothing about a ghoul when I read it, and that does make a ton of difference. In that case... normal damage rules seem fine to me. OTOH, if you treat the ghoul like an astral barrier, I'd suggest using Essence as a substitute for Force. After all, the same principle that applies to trying to break through a barrier applies to getting hit by an astral body even to the point that RL velocity and mass should be less important to nil when considering how two astral bodies interact irrespective of their astral velocities since the question becomes which body gets penetrated by the other's aura and, frankly, dies.
so what happens if an adept with astral perception shoots a bullet at a spirit and the bullet has ... say... an astral armor spell sustained on it? normal damage? Depend on spells force?
Probably umm...Force would probably be power, and I'd say it would retain medium damage. But that's a clever, clever, CLEVER idea. How would that work? Who knows. I say what I did because if the spell's force is defended against it becomes a normal bullet, no damage. If it isn't, then its essentially an astral bullet, so the base damage code would remain.
I'd treat it as astral combat between the Spirit and the Spell the same way it would occur if the spirit tried to break through a barrier spell.
I've seen barrier spells used as weapons, but I can't for the life of me recall what the Damage Level used was.
I've seen barrier spells used as weapons, but I can't for the life of me recall what the Damage Level used was.
my idea for it (not really thought out, jsut a thought) would be something like What Frost suggested, power=force, because a weaker spell on the astral wouldn't be as tough (as in dense or hard) as a bullet in the physical plane is. So it wouldn't hit as hard. I specifically said a barrier spell BTW for the same reason, to make it something "hard" that is hitting the astral form, like a weapon foci would be. It doesn't make any sense that any spell on a bullet would hurt (like say invisibilty), because then it's just spell splat to the spirit. But Astral barrier, or more specifially even spirit barrier makes sense to me. Hope that attempt at an explanation makes some sense.
If any of the freelancers/writers read this thread, be advised: this kind of question (damage code for an astrally active metahuman body) is a great test of how streamlined/consistant/intelligent the SR4 rules are. If the SR4 magic book or the SR4 weapons book has an answer for this question, it will mean that the rules are rational, consistant, and of high quality. Good luck!
SR3 has a clear answer to this question, just no one who asks likes to hear it. SR3 176 explains the optimal case for trying to shoot astrally active bullets at a non-materialized target. However, the bullet will not be an active patricipant in any astral combat it gets involved in, so the spirit can sidestep a few meters whenever it wants and get out of the way. The only way this can be used to force the spirit to fight the spell on the bullet is if the spirit is already trapped in all other possible directions by wards that are stronger than the spell on the bullet.
What if the Troll is not awakened? He'd have mad TN penalties, but if he was attacking the right spot his ghoul-club would still work, yes?
Theoretically yes it is possible. If a very perceptive troll recognized the tell-tale sparkle of a spirit in the astral, grabbed a ghoul and swung it through the area, the spirit might (might!) be hit.
That said, astral combat doesn't have much to do with physical combat on most levels, as Herald neatly points out. Three dimensional-movement at tremendous speeds at a whim, not hampered by physical obstructions, tends to make dodging such an attack relatively easy.
Even if you allow it, your target might decide to...er...break your weapon...if the impact doesn't do that as well. A ghoul that hits a fire elemental is going to get burned.
That said, astral combat doesn't have much to do with physical combat on most levels, as Herald neatly points out. Three dimensional-movement at tremendous speeds at a whim, not hampered by physical obstructions, tends to make dodging such an attack relatively easy.
Even if you allow it, your target might decide to...er...break your weapon...if the impact doesn't do that as well. A ghoul that hits a fire elemental is going to get burned.
Not to pick apart the post or anything cause I think it's a grand idea, but he couldn't have clubs (metahuman bodies) 4 (10) because the specialization can't exceed twice the base skill rating with the notable exception of 1 (3).
-Joe
-Joe
Is there not an astraly active bacteria? If so this could be used to make a good spirit bashen club.
You know, there has to be a army of resirchers trying to develop/discover a microbe that give of light (in a mundane way) when exposed to spirit energy. Then you could build 'Spirit goggles' so the mundanes can see astral. (you just have to find a way to focus the energy onto a screen of these microbes and they would give of light which could be formed into images.)
You know, there has to be a army of resirchers trying to develop/discover a microbe that give of light (in a mundane way) when exposed to spirit energy. Then you could build 'Spirit goggles' so the mundanes can see astral. (you just have to find a way to focus the energy onto a screen of these microbes and they would give of light which could be formed into images.)
Things like this already exist. See FAB Strain-I, II and III, in MitS, MitS, and Threats respectively. 
... and you can't use them to make a club for bashing spirits!
... and you can't use them to make a club for bashing spirits!
If we determined that striking an unmanifested spirit with a ghoul is possible (and I don't see why it wouldn't be, since the same astrally-percieving adept could strike the spirit with a [dual natured] weapons focus...
[list]
[*]what kind of reach modifier would they get?
[*]would it be less for dwarves-turned-into-ghouls than for trolls-turned-into-ghouls?
[*]would you use you strength (like with most weapon foci) or your will (your astral strength) or the ghoul's charisma (his/her astral bod)?
[list]
[*]what kind of reach modifier would they get?
[*]would it be less for dwarves-turned-into-ghouls than for trolls-turned-into-ghouls?
[*]would you use you strength (like with most weapon foci) or your will (your astral strength) or the ghoul's charisma (his/her astral bod)?
ROFL, great question.
And they are right, can't do 4/10 and by the nature of grabbing anything and swinging it, you are no longer "unarmed". This would likely be Club/Improvised Weapons or Club/Metahuman skill.
Man, what would that fight look like, also surged works well for this as well if the poor slitch got stuck with dual-natured.
I would say for purposes of the fight, you drop the dmg code down a notch because under normal circumstances, a metahuman body does (STR)M stun dmg, but spirits are immune to stun. So drop it to (STR)L physical dmg and you've got a weapon.
Of course, now I have this image of a spirit grabbing a ghoul and whacking a troll with it, then the ghoul duel ensues...
Also, for damage, I think Your Str plus half the "club's" charisma
And they are right, can't do 4/10 and by the nature of grabbing anything and swinging it, you are no longer "unarmed". This would likely be Club/Improvised Weapons or Club/Metahuman skill.
Man, what would that fight look like, also surged works well for this as well if the poor slitch got stuck with dual-natured.
I would say for purposes of the fight, you drop the dmg code down a notch because under normal circumstances, a metahuman body does (STR)M stun dmg, but spirits are immune to stun. So drop it to (STR)L physical dmg and you've got a weapon.
Of course, now I have this image of a spirit grabbing a ghoul and whacking a troll with it, then the ghoul duel ensues...
Also, for damage, I think Your Str plus half the "club's" charisma
The actual combat would be between the ghoul and the spirit. You use the ghoul's strength (I think, need to reread dual natured attacks against spirits) and unarmed skill. The troll would just be there for effect.
[edit]Yes, SR3 page 174 mentions that dual natured types use all their attributes as in normal combat and the chart on 175 states the damage would just be (Str)M.
[edit]Yes, SR3 page 174 mentions that dual natured types use all their attributes as in normal combat and the chart on 175 states the damage would just be (Str)M.
That's an entertaining thought.
You better work with your GM so that situations like that occur in game, though.
Unless you carry knocked out ghouls in your backback, you might find that you rarely have a dual natured being conveniently within reach when a spirit attack.
You better work with your GM so that situations like that occur in game, though.
Unless you carry knocked out ghouls in your backback, you might find that you rarely have a dual natured being conveniently within reach when a spirit attack.
Grab the body of the astrally projecting mage?
No good, the body isn't dual natured, it's empty. Astrally percieving mage works, as does devilrat. Actually, I'd suggest a devilrat if you want a club-like dual natured object. The big rodents will attack almost anything, and that will include the spirit you swing it through (and the troll, but that's why you have armor).
If he's projecting, his body isn't dual natured. If he's just perceiving though...
GM to mage : You are perceiving a fire elemental two meter ahead of you.
Mage : "Guys, there's a dematerialized elemental right in front of us"
Troll player : I grab the mage and swing in front of me in a large arc.
Mage player : Hey, you might kill me.
Troll player : I'm willing to take that chance.
EDIT : That's in honor of one my player who once stated his willingness to risk the life of his partner in a situation not entirely different from that one. It still makes me laugh.
GM to mage : You are perceiving a fire elemental two meter ahead of you.
Mage : "Guys, there's a dematerialized elemental right in front of us"
Troll player : I grab the mage and swing in front of me in a large arc.
Mage player : Hey, you might kill me.
Troll player : I'm willing to take that chance.
EDIT : That's in honor of one my player who once stated his willingness to risk the life of his partner in a situation not entirely different from that one. It still makes me laugh.
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| Things like this already exist. See FAB Strain-I, II and III, in MitS, MitS, and Threats respectively. ... and you can't use them to make a club for bashing spirits! |
And why not? A dual natured creature can bash a spirit, so a dual natured bacteria should be able to do the same. Even if it is living in a cultrue tube being swung by a mundane.
Its a conspiricy I tell you. Wizard: "No mundane, it is time for the grown ups to work, now go over there and play with your little toys."
Eather that or ballance. Give the mages some where to shine. Of corse it is of limited effect. "Wow guys, did you see me kick that spirit's ass? It was so cool! . . . No? Well, I did, you should be glad I diden't let it manifest, you would be in trouble if it had. . . Really. . . Sometimes a Mage's body will snore when they project. . .Honest!"
Must double check the book when I get home, but can you train a Devilrat?
Make a Pied Piper type Troll adepts, with the animal kinship abilities and have it trained. Then again, of you cna train the devil rat, why not just have it attack the spirits instead of swinging it?
Make a Pied Piper type Troll adepts, with the animal kinship abilities and have it trained. Then again, of you cna train the devil rat, why not just have it attack the spirits instead of swinging it?
Critter training isn't in any of the current books. However, they are somewhat intelligent (2 IIRC) and could probably understand and follow basic commands if you could find a way to make them want to listen to you. If you can get a mage to cast a few proper manipulation spells (in exchange for the promise of not using the mage as a cudgel) it gets easier.
Toss in the stuff about animal companions in SOTA64 and you can get your own Pokemon style troll adept spirit-counter. Or just give the adept troll astral perception and use a force 1 weapon focus.
Toss in the stuff about animal companions in SOTA64 and you can get your own Pokemon style troll adept spirit-counter. Or just give the adept troll astral perception and use a force 1 weapon focus.
| QUOTE |
| Its a conspiricy I tell you. Wizard: "No mundane, it is time for the grown ups to work, now go over there and play with your little toys." |
You talk like it's not possible for mundanes to fight materialized spirits. Pg 188, right column.
The book describes it as a melee attack. I don't see anything that differentiates it from other melee attacks beyond what you roll. This means you get Friends in Melee bonuses and it gets Opponents in Melee penalties. So the best way to fight a materialized spirit is to have everyone swarm it en masse, mundanes and magical types alike. Many magical types are better off trying to use force of personality to take a spirit on rather than banishing.
My conjurer/rigger will never try to banish a spirit that isn't his own. He's just going to pull out a 10' pole and pimp-slap it.
Or culture Devil rat tissue in a tube. Spirit bashen club.
Oh, I know mundanes can fight materilized spirits, I've done it. (or more correctly stood infront of the darn thing smacking it with my staff, keeping if from eating the mage who was banishing it.) It's just scarry, monsters you can't see that can jumb out and get you from noware. Kind of like Sharks in the ocean. If you are above the water you basickly can't see them, and if you just watched Jaws, you can't help but wonder - just a little - what is down there. Now if you can go below the surface, you can see, and all is right. So mundanes can't help but be nervous about what is out there.
Oh, I know mundanes can fight materilized spirits, I've done it. (or more correctly stood infront of the darn thing smacking it with my staff, keeping if from eating the mage who was banishing it.) It's just scarry, monsters you can't see that can jumb out and get you from noware. Kind of like Sharks in the ocean. If you are above the water you basickly can't see them, and if you just watched Jaws, you can't help but wonder - just a little - what is down there. Now if you can go below the surface, you can see, and all is right. So mundanes can't help but be nervous about what is out there.
| QUOTE (Nikoli) |
| ROFL, great question. And they are right, can't do 4/10 and by the nature of grabbing anything and swinging it, you are no longer "unarmed". This would likely be Club/Improvised Weapons or Club/Metahuman skill. Man, what would that fight look like, also surged works well for this as well if the poor slitch got stuck with dual-natured. I would say for purposes of the fight, you drop the dmg code down a notch because under normal circumstances, a metahuman body does (STR)M stun dmg, but spirits are immune to stun. So drop it to (STR)L physical dmg and you've got a weapon. Of course, now I have this image of a spirit grabbing a ghoul and whacking a troll with it, then the ghoul duel ensues... Also, for damage, I think Your Str plus half the "club's" charisma |
My mistake with the skill. Bump it up to 5/10
However, according to the Cannon Companion uyou use the unarmed skill to swing around a metahuman body and it causes BOD +2 M Stun damage. However, your STR must to equal to or greater than the weapon's BOD.
Here's an interesting scenairo... An astrally projecting mage is battling a Master Shedim that has possessed his body. The mage, unfortunatly, is outclassed.
However, he has an astrally percieving multi-initiate adept friend with 18 unarmed dice + combat pool. The adept can't enguage the Shedim in unarmed combat without enguaging the mage's body so the mage has the adept use his astral form as an inprovized weapon (metahuman body). Would that possibly work?\
Or Master and Blaster... the Troll Adept and parapalegic Dwarf Cyberzombie.
The CZ rides on the Troll's shoulders acting as a living weapon's turret untill something closes to melee, then the Troll uses him as a very high body and high willpower dual-natured club.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| Toss in the stuff about animal companions in SOTA64 and you can get your own Pokemon style troll adept spirit-counter. Or just give the adept troll astral perception and use a force 1 weapon focus. |
I dare anybody to use this concept in a game and cry this out when you meet your first spirit...
"PokeTroll, I choose You!"
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Here's an interesting scenairo... An astrally projecting mage is battling a Master Shedim that has possessed his body. The mage, unfortunatly, is outclassed. However, he has an astrally percieving multi-initiate adept friend with 18 unarmed dice + combat pool. The adept can't enguage the Shedim in unarmed combat without enguaging the mage's body so the mage has the adept use his astral form as an inprovized weapon (metahuman body). Would that possibly work?\ |
Shaman Fight! Oversoul! Amidamaru in Harusame!Ahem... back on topic, I'd refer you to all those previous threads using FAB 3 bullets to shoot spirits. The principle here is the same.
It isn't exactly the same. FAB bacteria isn't a canon weapon. The metahuman body is a canon weapon with a canon damage code. The FAB in a FAB filled bullet doesn't become a bullet. However, the Astral form of a sword foci is a sword and the Astral form of a metahuman body is a metahuman body.
Wielding a weapon with an independant astral presence is little different from wielding a weapon focus. The only real difference is that the focus is bound to the wielder and the metahuman body is not.
This brings up a basic question about Astral combat. If you aren't bound to the weapon are you really using any skill to attack?
I would lean toward yes for only one reason. Extrapolating from Earthdawn, if an IE decides to have a laugh by physically shifting you to Astral your physical weapons would works just as they do in the physical world.
That, and the fact that you can use unbound objects to transmit force of will.
Wielding a weapon with an independant astral presence is little different from wielding a weapon focus. The only real difference is that the focus is bound to the wielder and the metahuman body is not.
This brings up a basic question about Astral combat. If you aren't bound to the weapon are you really using any skill to attack?
I would lean toward yes for only one reason. Extrapolating from Earthdawn, if an IE decides to have a laugh by physically shifting you to Astral your physical weapons would works just as they do in the physical world.
That, and the fact that you can use unbound objects to transmit force of will.
LMAO! ROTF!
I'd laugh even harder, if someone hadn't sudjested this in my group once. Our GM at the time told us no.
Hmm... I am intreged. My only question would be do use str, or will?
(Disclamer :we play SR2.5, most of the magic rules we use are 2nd, so if this is a bonehead question for SR#, please keep this in mind.)
I'd laugh even harder, if someone hadn't sudjested this in my group once. Our GM at the time told us no.
Hmm... I am intreged. My only question would be do use str, or will?
(Disclamer :we play SR2.5, most of the magic rules we use are 2nd, so if this is a bonehead question for SR#, please keep this in mind.)
| QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 14 2005, 10:35 AM) |
| However, the Astral form of a sword foci is a sword and the Astral form of a metahuman body is a metahuman body. Wielding a weapon with an independant astral presence is little different from wielding a weapon focus. The only real difference is that the focus is bound to the wielder and the metahuman body is not. |
While for all intents and purposes, the Astral form of a sword weapon focus is that of a sword (since it deals damage in a manner similar to a sword, with the appropriate Attribute-linked Power and Damage level). But a metahuman astral form only looks like a metahuman body(SR3 p173).
Also, while the troll may be able to use the ghoul's physical form for physical combat (Str>Bod), his Astral form might not be able to do so astrally(Cha<Will).
| QUOTE (wagnern) | ||
And why not? A dual natured creature can bash a spirit, so a dual natured bacteria should be able to do the same. Even if it is living in a cultrue tube being swung by a mundane. |
Or, just take a 2 liter bottle and fill it with FAB 3 before the fight. Instant spirit-club.
FAB 1 and 2 do nothing to a spirit in astral combat, and FAB 3 takes time to drain force. None are viable threats in the timeframe of a club swing.
Now, I'm running purely from memory here, so bear with me. If anyone can contradict me and cite a source, however, I will retract the statement.
The astral plane, being not the physical plane, does not have the same laws as the physical plane. Notable examples include gravity and inertia. Since there's no inertia, hitting something with something else doesn't have any effect. So, you (or whatever) you're swinging, actually has to go into combat with the spirit. I.E. the troll would be using his willpower and using the body as a way to focus that willpower. So, in that way, it doesn't matter how strong the troll is or how big the body is.
| QUOTE (Ancient History) |
| Theoretically yes it is possible. If a very perceptive troll recognized the tell-tale sparkle of a spirit in the astral, grabbed a ghoul and swung it through the area, the spirit might (might!) be hit. That said, astral combat doesn't have much to do with physical combat on most levels, as Herald neatly points out. Three dimensional-movement at tremendous speeds at a whim, not hampered by physical obstructions, tends to make dodging such an attack relatively easy. Even if you allow it, your target might decide to...er...break your weapon...if the impact doesn't do that as well. A ghoul that hits a fire elemental is going to get burned. |
If the astral entity could easily step aside the ghoul-club what chance does an astrally preceiving Adept have of punching a spirit that is fully astral?
| QUOTE (blakkie) |
| If the astral entity could easily step aside the ghoul-club what chance does an astrally preceiving Adept have of punching a spirit that is fully astral? |
None unless the adept has distance strike or the spirits starts the fight. Once a spirit gets close enough to kick the astral component of your ass, it can be countered. Until that time, the sheer difference in relative speed is one of the spirit's strongest defenses.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) | ||
None unless the adept has distance strike or the spirits starts the fight. Once a spirit gets close enough to kick the astral component of your ass, it can be countered. Until that time, the sheer difference in relative speed is one of the spirit's strongest defenses. |
Yes, once it is within reach of course....bringing us (back?) to the question what is the weapon reach of a standard ghoul body. Hmm, i like the sound of that question so much i think i'll say it again.
What is the weapon reach of a standard ghoul body?
Probably 2, but I guess if you grabbed it by the hands you might be able to stretch it out to three.
| QUOTE (toturi) |
| Also, while the troll may be able to use the ghoul's physical form for physical combat (Str>Bod), his Astral form might not be able to do so astrally(Cha<Will). |
That the beauty of Astral Perception. Dual beings use STR and BOD insted of CHA and WILL.
Actaully, since that is the case the Ghoul club would probably cause BOD+2 M damage as normal.
This can be easily done by SR3, and the body/club doesn't even have to be dual natured.
Fight the spirit via Force of Will, and by the rules reach does count, the weapon doesn't matter. So it's just a matter of determining reach of the metahuman body.
Fight the spirit via Force of Will, and by the rules reach does count, the weapon doesn't matter. So it's just a matter of determining reach of the metahuman body.
Force of Will only works on materialized spirits. For astral spirits only unarmed, sorcery/astral combat, mana spells, and astrally present weapons work.
A mundane swinging around a ghoul wouldn't damage a spirit because SR3 states that both weapon and wielder hae to be astrally present, by the way.
A mundane swinging around a ghoul wouldn't damage a spirit because SR3 states that both weapon and wielder hae to be astrally present, by the way.
That makes sense when you're using a Weapon Focus, not a Ghoul.
In my interpretation, the weapon is being wielded by himself. The fact that he's being moved involuntarily is a technicality.
In my interpretation, the weapon is being wielded by himself. The fact that he's being moved involuntarily is a technicality.
| QUOTE (Zeel De Mort) |
| Things like this already exist. See FAB Strain-I, II and III, in MitS, MitS, and Threats respectively. ... and you can't use them to make a club for bashing spirits! |
You could if you used an aluminum bat filled with the bacteria, Or had one made of titanium or some other hard metal...
| QUOTE (Frater Inominatus) | ||
You could if you used an aluminum bat filled with the bacteria, Or had one made of titanium or some other hard metal... |
Nope, because the bat isn't astrally active. The bacteria in the bat are but they have the astral form of bacteria, not a bat. They will cause damage as bacteria do, which isn't quickly enough to be of any use.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) | ||||
Nope, because the bat isn't astrally active. The bacteria in the bat are but they have the astral form of bacteria, not a bat. They will cause damage as bacteria do, which isn't quickly enough to be of any use. |
Hence the tube of cultured Devil Rat flesh.
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