Leadermancer, The Non-pornographic pornomancer Options

[Mäx]

Glamour: Telling people to surrender is the opposite of hostile.
Specialization: Listed ones are not the only ones possible. For example, an otaku might take Software with a spec in Threading.
Global Fame: "Hey, isn't that the action star Jackie Chun? Man, he could kick all our asses!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
First Impression: You forgot it works for infiltration.
Enhanced Phermone Receptors: The active term is "may". If you're not inflicting the penalty all the time, suddenly applying in every time commanding voice comes into play is GM metagame cheese.
Minor Biosculpting: What, haven't you ever heard of the "Art of Distraction"?
Tailored Phermones: If you're going to be technical about this, then so can I. It doesn't give a bonus to the Commanding Voice power, it gives the bonus to a Leadership test.

We're back up to 51 dice or so, despite your attempts to nerf the power.

Actually none of those bonuses aply becouse as the description of the power says

This power channels the adept’s magic into his voice to enhance
the modulation and pitch, subliminally influencing the
actions of any listeners. The adept takes a Complex Action to
give a simple but forceful command (five words or less) to the
target, making an Opposed Test with Leadership + Charisma
against the target(s) Willpower + Leadership. If the adept succeeds
in the test, the target uses his next action to either carry out
the command or stands confused (gamemaster’s choice, but the
more net hits achieved the more likely he will obey the adept’s
command). Such commands carry no weight beyond the immediate
impetus, and the affected characters will quickly reassert
their wits, returning to their original course of action. If multiple
individuals are targeted, use the largest dice pool among the defenders
and add +1 dice per additional target (max. +5).
Commanding voice may only be used on metahumans
who can directly hear and understand the adept’s words. It
has no effect when the voice is amplified or broadcast via
technological means (eg. wireless transmission, loudspeaker,
etc). It is also less effective on subsequent uses against the
same target. Apply a cumulative –2 dice pool penalty for each
use within the preceding 24 hours.

It's not a social test, it's just the characters Leadership + Charisma versus targets Willpower + Leadership.

And even if we say that it's a ledership test, the part about them having to hear and understand what the character is saying will ably.
IMHO it's not in any way quaranteed in midlle of a combat.

[psychophipps]

It's not a social test, it's just the characters Leadership + Charisma versus targets Willpower + Leadership.

And even if we say that it's a leadership test, the part about them having to hear and understand what the character is saying will ably.
IMHO it's not in any way guaranteed in middle of a combat.

Well, you can ask any people in the military on here and they will tell you that they can hear their sergeant standing 10 meters or so away just dandy when they're firing their weapons and the sergeant's voice isn't typically being focused through a narrow area like a hallway.

Yes, it's range dependent to a point. But then again, it's also about 10,000 times more useful if you can be a sneaky git and skull-screw the opposition before the guns start blazing, no? It might not win every fight once combat starts but it works just skippy if you can get them to stare at you like an idiot while the Sammy goes to work with them not being able to dodge his long machinegun burst...

[Mäx]

Well, you can ask any people in the military on here and they will tell you that they can hear their sergeant standing 10 meters or so away just dandy when they're firing their weapons and the sergeant's voice isn't typically being focused through a narrow area like a hallway.

I know that, i have served my time in FDF, but that doesn't exactly transalate to hearing and understanding what the one of the enemies is trying to command you to do.
And the there is of cource the fact that the quards may not understand att all what the character is saying, for example they may not understand english at all.

[Cain]

It's not a social test, it's just the characters Leadership + Charisma versus targets Willpower + Leadership.

And even if we say that it's a ledership test, the part about them having to hear and understand what the character is saying will ably.
IMHO it's not in any way quaranteed in midlle of a combat.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

For all intents and purposes, it is a leadership test. That is *exactly* what you'd roll for a Leadership test. And thus, all the bonuses that apply to a Leadership test also apply.

And while I've never been in military combat, I have been on a few shooting ranges with everyone blasting away. I could still hear and understand someone 10m away, yelling at me, with ear protection on. It wasn't easy, but if I could do it, so could they.

[psychophipps]

And the there is of cource the fact that the quards may not understand at all what the character is saying, for example they may not understand english at all.

At which point they stare blankly at the leadermancer and lose their action anyway?

Still winning? I think so...

[Glyph]

At which point they stare blankly at the leadermancer and lose their action anyway?

Still winning? I think so...

Nope, unless you are house ruling how commanding voice works - the targets have to be able to hear and understand the adept's words.


Cain is right that the dice pools mentioned are the same as those involved in a leadership test, but why would they spell it all out, instead of saying "make a successful leadership test"? That's why I still lean towards the interpretation that the power works closer to how the enthralling performance power works, than to how a standard leadership test works.

A player who wants a standard leadership test, though, could wind up getting screwed, because whether you agree with Cain or Tarantula, the point remains that many of the porno/leadermancer's dice pool modifiers are conditional, subjective, and require the GM's agreement for them to work. Meanwhile, the GM can also pile on the negative modifiers - you aren't part of the chain of command, they "outrank" you, they outnumber you, you look like an outsider, you are an enemy, they are hostile towards you, and so on. For mere grunts, you are better off with your base dice pool, which will probably be in the high teens, more than enough to prevail against most normal opposition, +5 modifier or not.

In fact, you will be likely to win against just about anyone except another social adept. And then, you can have a cool commanding voice duel like they had in The Ancients thread. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

It's also frustratingly unclear how selective this power can be. Intitially, it talks about "influencing the actions of any listeners." This seems to imply anyone in earshot. But later, it describes giving commands to the target, which makes it sound like it can be directed more specifically.

[Cain]

Cain is right that the dice pools mentioned are the same as those involved in a leadership test, but why would they spell it all out, instead of saying "make a successful leadership test"? That's why I still lean towards the interpretation that the power works closer to how the enthralling performance power works, than to how a standard leadership test works.

Unwired makes several references to tests like that: For example, Verifying Software is a Software + Analyze test. Does that mean the things that affect such rolls suddenly doesn't apply, like Hot Sim? Street Magic also is loaded with tests just like that-- for example, Assensing + Intuition is used to penetrate Extended Masking. Does that mean any bonuses you get to Assensing or Intuition don't apply? Especially if they apply to normal Assensing rolls?

Heck, some of the examples in the BBB use the spelled-out format instead of "Make X test". To avoid crashing, you make a "Vehicle Skill + Reaction (3)" test, instead of just a plain old Vehicle test. Does that mean your bonuses to vehicle tests don't apply? Of course not. It's the same test, even if the format is a little different.

[Stahlseele]

i think i just found the easiest way to make this built pointless.
have the guards switch off their ears and communicate with internal comlink between each other so they don't hear anything? O.o
and because they don't hear anything, they won't have to talk either, so nothing to alert the runners to their presence or the runners listening in on them planning something nasty for them either.

[psychophipps]

i think i just found the easiest way to make this built pointless.
have the guards switch off their ears and communicate with internal comlink between each other so they don't hear anything? O.o
and because they don't hear anything, they won't have to talk either, so nothing to alert the runners to their presence or the runners listening in on them planning something nasty for them either.

So the CorpSec guys are running around all day, every day with utterly, and completely stopped up ears and unable to hear anyone or anything not coming in on their commlink (like the new guy who's asking where the copy room is, or their boss telling them to take a break when he forgot his commlink on his desk, or the cute secretary from Accounting, or maybe...umm...gunfire down the hall?) on the billion to one chance that a leadermancer shows up to skullhump them during a 'run?

Brilliant! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Tarantula]

Glamour: Telling people to surrender is the opposite of hostile.
Specialization: Listed ones are not the only ones possible. For example, an otaku might take Software with a spec in Threading.
Global Fame: "Hey, isn't that the action star Jackie Chun? Man, he could kick all our asses!" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
First Impression: You forgot it works for infiltration.
Enhanced Phermone Receptors: The active term is "may". If you're not inflicting the penalty all the time, suddenly applying in every time commanding voice comes into play is GM metagame cheese.
Minor Biosculpting: What, haven't you ever heard of the "Art of Distraction"?
Tailored Phermones: If you're going to be technical about this, then so can I. It doesn't give a bonus to the Commanding Voice power, it gives the bonus to a Leadership test.

We're back up to 51 dice or so, despite your attempts to nerf the power.

I disagree for glamour. Telling someone to surrender is a hostile action. Dictionary.com says hostile means:
1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of an enemy: a hostile nation.
Enemies are typically the ones who tell you to surrender.

Specialization, listed ones are the only RAW ones, which is what I base my dicussion off of. If you want to houserule otherwise, then thats fine, but not relevant to the discussion here.

Fame: Sure, it might work. How high is your unarmed/con skill again? Mr. famous action star?
First impression: SR4, 78, "Whenever attempting to fit into a new environment—such as infiltrating a group or trying to meet contacts in a new city—the character gains a +2 dice pool modifier on any Social Tests during the first meeting."
You are not infiltrating the group as another security guard. You are not trying to meed contacts in a new city. You're also not trying to fit into a new environment.

Enhanced receptors: You argued you'd get the bonus. Now when I point out that in groups, its a penalty, you say that it doesn't apply. Which is it?

Biosculpting: No idea what you're talking about. Regardless, just because you're pretty doesn't mean they're even going to notice in mid-fight.

Tailored pheromones: The test happens because of the use of a magical ability (commanding voice). And tailored pheromones say, SR4, 339, "This bonus has no effect on magical abilities and tests."
If it wasn't because of commanding voice, then you could not have the power, and still do it. (Which would be the normal leadership test). In that case, the pheromones would apply.

[Stahlseele]

So the CorpSec guys are running around all day, every day with utterly, and completely stopped up ears and unable to hear anyone or anything not coming in on their commlink (like the new guy who's asking where the copy room is, or their boss telling them to take a break when he forgot his commlink on his desk, or the cute secretary from Accounting, or maybe...umm...gunfire down the hall?) on the billion to one chance that a leadermancer shows up to skullhump them during a 'run?

Brilliant! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

aside from the gunfire down the hall, yes, it's pretty much perfect i'd say . .

[psychophipps]

Aside from the gunfire down the hall, yes, it's pretty much perfect I'd say...

Especially when the Rigger/Hacker fires up the ol' ECM... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Easiest 'run EVAR! *cheers*

[Cain]

I disagree for glamour. Telling someone to surrender is a hostile action.

No, telling someone: "I"m going to shoot you!" is a hostile action. Saying "Surrender!" is not a hostile action, its a statement made to avoid hostile actions.

Specialization, listed ones are the only RAW ones, which is what I base my dicussion off of.

Fine, then. There's a specialization called "Persuasion" in my BBB, I'd say that applies.

Fame: Sure, it might work. How high is your unarmed/con skill again? Mr. famous action star?

Considering we're discussing a pornomancer-level character, pretty damn high.

Enhanced receptors: You argued you'd get the bonus. Now when I point out that in groups, its a penalty, you say that it doesn't apply. Which is it?

No, my argument is that magically applying the penalty only when they use Commanding Voice is utter cheese. If you're applying it every time they go to Starbucks, then you're just nerfing it. Which is it?

Biosculpting: No idea what you're talking about.

It's a game concept from BESM. In it, it explains how to use your appearance to distract enemies, even in combat.

If it wasn't because of commanding voice, then you could not have the power, and still do it. (Which would be the normal leadership test). In that case, the pheromones would apply.

It *is* a normal leadership test. You can use Leadership to convince people to surrender or change sides in the middle of a combat. Commanding Voice just makes it faster and easier. I'll take that as a concession on your part.

[Tarantula]

No, telling someone: "I"m going to shoot you!" is a hostile action. Saying "Surrender!" is not a hostile action, its a statement made to avoid hostile actions.

Again, I'll go to the dictionary.com for surrender...
1. to yield (something) to the possession or power of another; deliver up possession of on demand or under duress
Under duress. If you're under duress, its a hostile act.

Fine, then. There's a specialization called "Persuasion" in my BBB, I'd say that applies.

GM Call, but you're not persuading them, you're ordering them. I'd say you need to have more than 5 words to persuade someone.

Considering we're discussing a pornomancer-level character, pretty damn high.

Not really. Your leadership is very high. Unarmed is unspecified. And con unmentioned as well.

No, my argument is that magically applying the penalty only when they use Commanding Voice is utter cheese. If you're applying it every time they go to Starbucks, then you're just nerfing it. Which is it?

No, you get the penalty if it is in a group. You want to commanding voice while only 1 guy is around? Great, bonus. You want to commanding voice with a group of people around? Penalty.

It's a game concept from BESM. In it, it explains how to use your appearance to distract enemies, even in combat.

Thats nice. This is shadowrun, not BESM. I might go for it if and only if the guards had spent an observe in detail action on the character.

It *is* a normal leadership test. You can use Leadership to convince people to surrender or change sides in the middle of a combat. Commanding Voice just makes it faster and easier. I'll take that as a concession on your part.

No, it isn't a regular leadership test. You could make a similar attempt with a normal leadership test, but it would take longer, and they would probably just shoot you rather then listen to you blather on and on.

This is a magical effect. You are using your commanding voice to make the leadership test. Commanding voice is a magical effect. Therefore, tailored pheremones do not work on leadership tests made using commanding voice.

[Cain]

If you're under duress, its a hostile act.

Hardly. First of all it says "Or under duress." Not that you have to be under duress to surrender.

Besides which, since you like definitions so much, here's a legal one:

28-2-402. What constitutes duress. Duress consists in:
(1) unlawful confinement of the person of the party, of the husband or wife of such party, or of an ancestor, descendant, or adopted child of such party, husband, or wife;
(2) unlawful detention of the property of any such person; or
(3) confinement of such person, lawful in form but fraudulently obtained or fraudulently made unjustly harassing or oppressive.

History: En. Sec. 2114, Civ. C. 1895; re-en. Sec. 4975, Rev. C. 1907; re-en. Sec. 7477, R.C.M. 1921; Cal. Civ. C. Sec. 1569; Field Civ. C. Sec. 754; re-en. Sec. 7477, R.C.M. 1935; R.C.M. 1947, 13-305.

So, by your definition, it's not hostile unless it's an enemy. You can be unlawfully detained by anyone, not just enemies. Therefore, anyone can put you under duress, not just an enemy.

GM Call, but you're not persuading them, you're ordering them.

Weren't you the one who said that Commanding Voice couldn't force people to do anything they didn't want to do? Persuading someone to surrender in the face of superior opposition is fair game.

Not really. Your leadership is very high. Unarmed is unspecified. And con unmentioned as well.

Look at Artisan + Enthralling Performance. Also, Con is not only listed, but has all the social skill bonuses.

No, you get the penalty if it is in a group. You want to commanding voice while only 1 guy is around? Great, bonus. You want to commanding voice with a group of people around? Penalty.

You didn't answer the question. Are you nerfing the receptors all the time, or just when he's using Commanding Voice?

No, it isn't a regular leadership test. You could make a similar attempt with a normal leadership test, but it would take longer, and they would probably just shoot you rather then listen to you blather on and on.

That's what Enthralling Performance is for. But yes, this is a normal leadership test. It uses the exact same roll as a leadership test, and all the standard modifiers apply.

[Tarantula]

Hardly. First of all it says "Or under duress." Not that you have to be under duress to surrender.

Different side of it then. You are currently an enemy to them. You tell them to surrender. That doesn't suddenly make you not an enemy.
Why are you an enemy? Because you are intruding on their secured property.

Weren't you the one who said that Commanding Voice couldn't force people to do anything they didn't want to do? Persuading someone to surrender in the face of superior opposition is fair game.

I don't think a 5 word command is persuasive. Its an order, not trying to convince them to do it.

Look at Artisan + Enthralling Performance. Also, Con is not only listed, but has all the social skill bonuses.

No, you said to replace the Con of the leadermancer with the leadership skill. Leadership is listed. Why am I looking at artisan + enthralling performance? That has nothing to do with being an action star.

You didn't answer the question. Are you nerfing the receptors all the time, or just when he's using Commanding Voice?

Any social tests done while in the presence of a group of individuals.

That's what Enthralling Performance is for. But yes, this is a normal leadership test. It uses the exact same roll as a leadership test, and all the standard modifiers apply.

And because you are using a magical effect to enthralling performance, it also would not get the tailored pheromones bonus.

Making ONLY a leadership test would get the bonus. Using commanding voice or enthralling performance to make the test would not.

[Fortune]

This power channels the adept's magic into his voice to enhance the modulation and pitch, subliminally influencing the actions of any listeners.

I really do think that Commanding Voice can be considered to be magical in nature.

[Cain]

Different side of it then. You are currently an enemy to them. You tell them to surrender. That doesn\'t suddenly make you not an enemy.

You\'re not an enemy unless you're antagonistic; and trying to get everyone to stop fighting is, by definition, not antagonistic.

I don't think a 5 word command is persuasive. Its an order, not trying to convince them to do it.

Would adding "Please" change anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, you said to replace the Con of the leadermancer with the leadership skill. Leadership is listed. Why am I looking at artisan + enthralling performance? That has nothing to do with being an action star.

You said Unarmed Combat. Most action stars aren't very good at unarmed combat, but can use choreographed martial arts for the modern equivalent of Enthralling Performance.

Any social tests done while in the presence of a group of individuals.

So he gets nerfed at any social test where there's people. Gotcha.

Making ONLY a leadership test would get the bonus. Using commanding voice or enthralling performance to make the test would not.

You\'re the one who wanted to get technical. And technically speaking, it is ONLY a leadership test. Commanding Voice just handles the other part.

In other words, the power of Commanding Voice is seriously broken in the hands of a social expert. We're still discussing something in the neighborhood of 50+ dice, despite your attempts to nerf it. Of course the power isn't broken, if you nerf the hell out of it with house rules! But according to RAW, it's hideously broken if used right.

[Edit]Forgot: More on the Art of Distraction.

[Glyph]

And that's the real reason I wouldn't want to play a pornomancer in an actual game. It's not so much the 51 dice, as it is that I wouldn't want to argue for ten minutes, every time I did anything, about which of my umpteen conditional dice pool modifiers applied... or didn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)


As far as enhanced pheromone receptors, it does say "recipients may experience extreme discomfort in crowds due to the overwhelming amount of odors." Now, simply facing a group of guards isn't really being in the middle of a crowd, but on the other hand, they work by letting you react to individuals by scent. Someone using commanding voice isn't doing anything remotely like that. He is simply making a verbal command, with his Magic giving power to his voice - I kind of picture it like the Bene Gesserit voice from Dune.

[Cain]

Someone using commanding voice isn't doing anything remotely like that. He is simply making a verbal command, with his Magic giving power to his voice - I kind of picture it like the Bene Gesserit voice from Dune.

I agree, but the problem is exactly as you said. You could go on for days, like tarantula and I are doing, over which modifiers apply and which don't. But even so, there's a bundle that *do*, and that leads to a game where the social adept overwhelms just about every NPC with his voice.

I wouldn't admit a pornomancer style character to my game, but only by freely admitting that I don't know how to cope with one. I'll tell the player outright that I wouldn't know how to adequately challenge such a character.

[Tarantula]

You\'re not an enemy unless you're antagonistic; and trying to get everyone to stop fighting is, by definition, not antagonistic.

No, I'm pretty sure if they were planning on shooting you, you're an enemy. If they weren't planning on shooting you, theres no need to use commanding voice.

Would adding "Please" change anything? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

No, that'd be asking, not persuading.

You said Unarmed Combat. Most action stars aren't very good at unarmed combat, but can use choreographed martial arts for the modern equivalent of Enthralling Performance.

I'd say they have an unarmed combat with some kind of specialization for what looks good on camera.

So he gets nerfed at any social test where there's people. Gotcha.

Where theres multiple people, yes. One on one, no.

You\'re the one who wanted to get technical. And technically speaking, it is ONLY a leadership test. Commanding Voice just handles the other part.

No, technically speaking, you're using commanding voice. Which is magical. The end.

In other words, the power of Commanding Voice is seriously broken in the hands of a social expert. We're still discussing something in the neighborhood of 50+ dice, despite your attempts to nerf it. Of course the power isn't broken, if you nerf the hell out of it with house rules! But according to RAW, it's hideously broken if used right.

You've thusfar failed to convince me on anything except for the 1 die for vocal range extender. Oh, and managed to get me to find out the pheremone receptors give you a -2 penalty. So you're still 1 die lower than what you were before.

[Edit]Forgot: More on the Art of Distraction.

I don't see how that would give a bonus to your commanding voice leadership test. In fact, they're probably less likely to listen to the naked girl, and more likely to maybe want to protect her from the "bad" runners she with.

I agree, but the problem is exactly as you said. You could go on for days, like tarantula and I are doing, over which modifiers apply and which don't. But even so, there's a bundle that *do*, and that leads to a game where the social adept overwhelms just about every NPC with his voice.

No, you couldn't. You could argue, and your GM would make a call. That'd take oh, what, about 10 seconds?

I wouldn't admit a pornomancer style character to my game, but only by freely admitting that I don't know how to cope with one. I'll tell the player outright that I wouldn't know how to adequately challenge such a character.

Your loss. They really aren't that overpowered. And no matter how social you are, it is still not mind control.

[Cain]

If they weren't planning on shooting you, theres no need to use commanding voice.

You said it yourself: Commanding Voice is faster. You could just make a plain social test to get them to surrender, Commanding Voice just makes it quicker.

I'd say they have an unarmed combat with some kind of specialization for what looks good on camera.

Weren't you the one demanding that we stick to the book specializations? "Chambara" and "Wuxia" aren't in the BBB. OTOH, Artisian (Kata) would be perfectly valid.

Where theres multiple people, yes. One on one, no.

I see. So there's more than one person present, he gets nerfed. Right.

Unless you're being metaphorical, three is not "a crowd".

Your loss. They really aren't that overpowered. And no matter how social you are, it is still not mind control.

Have you ever had anyone in your games with a 25+ dice pool? Not only can they buy 6 successes when they need it, they can overwhelm anyone who has a more normal dice pool. In the case of the pornomancer, with 51 dice that all apply, there's no social challenge that can match them. The only answer is to de-emphasize social interactions, which is not only a major loss of roleplay, but a serious blow to the player's spotlight time.

Besides which, have you read the Critical Success rules? If you score a crit, it is mind control if the player wants it to be. The player chooses the flourish, and the GM can't override them.

[Tarantula]

You said it yourself: Commanding Voice is faster. You could just make a plain social test to get them to surrender, Commanding Voice just makes it quicker.

You could try to, but they'd likely just shoot you on the spot. Commanding voice forces them to listen or at least think about listening for one turn. It does not make them surrender for the rest of the fight, even with 300 successes.

Weren't you the one demanding that we stick to the book specializations? "Chambara" and "Wuxia" aren't in the BBB. OTOH, Artisian (Kata) would be perfectly valid.

Kata's don't look very good on camera. If you wanted me to really force it, I'd say its covered under con (acting).

I see. So there's more than one person present, he gets nerfed. Right.

Unless you're being metaphorical, three is not "a crowd".

6 guards is though.

Have you ever had anyone in your games with a 25+ dice pool? Not only can they buy 6 successes when they need it, they can overwhelm anyone who has a more normal dice pool. In the case of the pornomancer, with 51 dice that all apply, there's no social challenge that can match them. The only answer is to de-emphasize social interactions, which is not only a major loss of roleplay, but a serious blow to the player's spotlight time.

They can not buy 6 hits when needed. They can buy it when failing isn't a consequence. So your pornomancer wants to go out and pick some person up for the night? Sure, you got 6 hits, you get your choice of people at the bar who were looking.

You want to convince the shadowrun team that you're not the one who took an extra share of cash out of the pot? Roll that con skill.

Besides which, have you read the Critical Success rules? If you score a crit, it is mind control if the player wants it to be. The player chooses the flourish, and the GM can't override them.

Yes, I have. And no, it is not. The commanding voice rules explicitly give control of the effect to the GM. The character is free to add a flourish such as something like, one of the guards saluting him or something. Maybe even one of them dropping his gun. Not "they all do exactly what i want for the rest of my life." or similar nonsense.

[Cain]

Kata's don't look very good on camera. If you wanted me to really force it, I'd say its covered under con (acting).

You haven't seen many katas, have you? Most live demonstrations are nothing but a kata that's been choreographed to include more people. In a very real way, martial arts acting is nothing more than katas with extra people and objects.

Commanding voice forces them to listen or at least think about listening for one turn. It does not make them surrender for the rest of the fight, even with 300 successes.

Why not? When faced by a clearly superior foe, surrender can seem like a nice option. Grunts shouldn't be fighting to the death.

6 guards is though.

6 guards = Crowd of 600 in an enclosed space. Right.

Yes, I have. And no, it is not. The commanding voice rules explicitly give control of the effect to the GM. The character is free to add a flourish such as something like, one of the guards saluting him or something. Maybe even one of them dropping his gun.

Or saying "The guards instantly bow to my mind controlling voice". That's a flourish as well.

[Tarantula]

You haven't seen many katas, have you? Most live demonstrations are nothing but a kata that's been choreographed to include more people. In a very real way, martial arts acting is nothing more than katas with extra people and objects.

Demonstrations yes. On camera, no. I did martial arts for 9 years. One of my close friends did a lot of work as an extra in martial arts movies. The guys the main guy kicks the shit out of. One thing he told me about it that I still remember, was that they have to learn to throw very weak hooked punches, because thats what looks good on camera. A nice straight punch looks like crap most of the time.

Why not? When faced by a clearly superior foe, surrender can seem like a nice option. Grunts shouldn't be fighting to the death.

Sure, so they'd do a tactical retreat while calling in the HTRT.

6 guards = Crowd of 600 in an enclosed space. Right.

Does it say crowd of 600 in an enclosed space? No, just says crowds.

Or saying "The guards instantly bow to my mind controlling voice". That's a flourish as well.

No, that isn't. Thats explicitly given to the GM to decide whether the guards listen, or pause. You've still not convinced me on the vast majority of the modifiers, which still leaves you short of a critical success anyway.