 Area effect spells and line of sight |
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 May 3 2006, 07:30 PM
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#26
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263  |
But where are they looking at that exact moment? And what are you suggesting? That the mage checks his wristwatch (please ignore the SR4 anacronism) or even just blinks and he has to redeclare because he momentarily wasn't looking at his teammates?
Down the path of [adhoc] Facing rules you go. Now start spinning that into 3D, because the world is an awkward place with all its catwalks, trenches, mezzanines, and such.
Methinks you are quite mistaken. There are the skills Hide, Move Silently, Spot, and Listen (though having two different sets of skills handling it makes it awkward at times, i'm not sure if there is anything better in the splatbooks or in the 3.5 books for handling that consistantly). EDIT: My PC actually used his Spot skill in his last combat. Damn teleporting Bone Deamon tried to hijack our moored boat but my rogue made his Spot check and laid low that little demonic pirate wannabe. Got SA damage too because i'd gone into Hiding before we brought down the Wall of Ice the Bone Deamon had put up and had spent the entire battle up until then watching for a good bow shot opportunity. :)
I've found it much better to 'keep it simple and abstract, fight the "realism" reflex, and punt at the first strong whiff of facing rules'. EDIT: But then i'm not a BattleTech player. *shrug* |
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May 3 2006, 07:48 PM
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#27
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Counterspelling facing: if he's sitting in the back of the van, no worries, If he's sitting in the front seat, there's trouble.
3D: Yeah, so? What works in 2D works in 3D, you just use a cone instead of an arc. Hide does not allow you to walk up behind someone without facing, because you have to have cover or concealment to hide. If someone is staring intently at a scroll and you ignore facing altogether, you can't sneak up on them. If you only ignore facing in combat, then they can be staring intently at that same scroll out of combat and be vulnerable, but suddenly all knowing when they switch to a battle grid. |
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May 3 2006, 07:49 PM
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#28
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
LOL! See, facing has it's place, and a usable ruleset for them is possible. :) |
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May 3 2006, 07:56 PM
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#29
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
:rotfl: That's an interesting interpretation. You can't go into a Hide while under observation UNLESS you create a distraction with a Bluff. But after you are in the Hide you are good to go. Certainly in combat is no different than out of combat, other than you are somewhat more certain there are enemies around, there is the noise of battle interfering with your hearing, and time becomes much more critcial so you might risk faster movement rates. |
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May 3 2006, 07:57 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
A sledge hammer is a very useful and usable tool as well. Just not for painting easter eggs. :P |
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May 3 2006, 08:08 PM
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#31
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So you have to get someone's attention, distract them, then sneak past?
You can't get into hide just by having someone looking away from you if you ignore facing altogether.
I'm not talking about moving silently, I'm talking about hiding. You can move silently anywhere and anywhen, but it's not very useful on its own without something to keep them from seeing you. You cannot walk up behind someone on a battle grid in combat just by virtue of them being compeltely distracted by the massive battle going on before them, unless you use some sort of facing (even if that's just the GM saying that he's not looking at you). Sure, you can make a skill check for a bluff, but there are countless situations where you should be able to sneak up on someone without having to take an action to distract him first.
True, but not very useful to the topic. :) |
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May 3 2006, 08:34 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Um, you create the distraction somewhere you AREN'T. So no YOU don't get their attention, something else of your choice gets their attention. But if you are Hidden already no need to do that. Just sneak on by....assuming the guy rolls crap.
What is this "looking away" you speak of, and why does it have the stench of facing rules about it? Yes, if you don't worry about facing rules you don't need facing rules. If you worry about facing rules you need facing rules. That certainly doesn't seem to me to be a very startling revelation. :P
If he doesn't know you are there and doesn't notice you come up? Boom, you got him and can pantz him or whatever. It is like a Surprise in the middle of combat, which can happen. Your misunderstanding seems to stem from the misconcepton that there is something different about combat versus outside combat where someone in combat gets to make all their Spot/Listen rolls automatically.
P&P RPG <-----> Miniature Game. Similar but different. If you want to turn your RPG into a miniatures combat games, hey good on you and break out the facing rules, the tape measure, field of view arc template, and what have you! But miniatures combat games do tend to concentrate on minutiae of the battle and in P&P that result is often seen as "bogging", just as painting with a sledgehammer is often seen as "smashing" (the comedian Gallagher aside). So it would seem quite relavent to the topic. But exactly how did this get sidetracked to D20 again? Oh ya, you worried about facing rules in D&D so you added facing rules. EDIT:
...and next thing you know you're doing geotrig trying to figure how many 1/10's of a m from the catwalk the elf can be and still have the dwarf (who is in just off to the elf's left, leaning over to draw his combat knife from his leg sheath) and the Troll (overhead on the catwalk to the right) in LOS at the same time. |
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May 3 2006, 08:38 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
haha, wow. i'll be right back. forgot my popcorn.
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May 3 2006, 08:44 PM
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#34
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
While you are there could you pick up up one of those "6 hour on the grill" hotdogs? No condiments please, they'll just splatter all over the place when i use it to wack McMurray.
What? You think i'd actually eat those? Nobody eats those, they're just for decoration. :P P.S. Make sure to take your ticket stub with you or bastards won't let you back in. :( |
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May 3 2006, 08:51 PM
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#35
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i just wish they would forget about the direct stuff completly. that way things would not be so messy. that, or allow the person to increase the drain on the power bolt by the number of people he wants to hit with it...
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May 3 2006, 08:59 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
At first blush that seems like a pretty good idea to me. So no more Power Ball. Just a Power Bolt with a drain of F/2 +1 and extra box of drain per extra target. Not even bother with "all must be within X meters of each other" crap. If you see 'em you can zap 'em. It does save the mage learning that extra Spell, and it does make the drain a box lower for only 2 targets. But if you want to cut a 5 mook swath you'll want to save those foci dice for the Drain test because it is going to hurt. |
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May 3 2006, 09:05 PM
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#37
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and beyond x number of targets within y area, your better of rolling out the fireball...
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May 3 2006, 09:15 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 524 Joined: 12-April 06 Member No.: 8,455 |
Personally, I'd like to see all AOE spells work like D&D fireball.
Pick a point in LOS. Then all effects are based upon LOS/cover from that point. Also, with counterspelling, I prefer the idea that as long as you *could* see a counterspelling target by turning your head (you can draw LOS to them, regardless of facing or arc), you have them "locked in" and counterspelling works. But, at this point, I'm rather confused about RAW. Heck, are indirect AOEs limited by the caster LOS conditions stated on 173 or not? I'm a little frustrated that there are so many things in RAW that are causing so much confusion and arguement. It's almost like we're debating THAC0. |
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May 3 2006, 09:18 PM
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#39
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
that is exactly how indirect AOE combat spells work now. its only the direct AOE ones that have this wierd LOS demand. problem is that if you remove it, why have indirect AOE?
or as this thread is pointing out, why have indirect combat spells at all? outside of the classical fireballs? |
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May 3 2006, 09:20 PM
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#40
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you know what i'd do, if i could block out certain targets and thereby miss them with AOE spells? i'd get some AR glasses and give everyone in my crew IFF transponders. the AR glasses would automatically block out my friends when i cast a spell. it'd block out me, too, of course. i'd need a program to handle the blocking, but if the Edit program can generate believable trideo on the fly, i'm pretty sure it could handle this.
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May 3 2006, 09:21 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Which still leaves you the problem of not being able to sneak up on someone without somehow interacting witht heir environment first, because you have to do something to get taht bluff check.
So people in your games have eyes all the way around their heads? Interesting idea, but I wouldn't use it. Of course, I already said that what works for you is fine for you. :) Let me lay out a scenario. The party is in a fight with a monster in the middle of a large field. Because this monster is much more powerful than them, all of their attention is focused on fighting it. Despite that, you cannot stroll up casually behind them and say hello, because even while being intent on one thing they are still completely aware of their environment. A step further: someone gets hit with Hold Person. Do they still get to see anything and everything around them despite being unable to move their eyes? I'm not saying ignoring facing is a bad thing. I even said it works within D&D because that's what the system was based around. It's what my group does when we play d20. All I'm saying is that ignoring facing has it's own problems. You have apparently handwaved those problems away by giving everyone eyes all over their head. I'm glad that works for you.
Ah, perhaps a less vague analogy would have helped it squeeze past my thick skull. :)
Nope, because we don't measure distances in tenths of meters. but even if we did there's be no need for something that close. The battlemat is an abstraction. Move the mini somewhere that looks feasible, say that's what's happening, and then move on with the turn. And please leave your homosexual tendencies at the door. You;re not my type when I'm looking for a good wacking.
And then contemplate the damage a single terrorist suicide bomber mage could do from atop a tall building on a clear day. EEK!
Most (all?) of the indirect AOE spells are elemental in nature, and so would have environmental side effects that a power ball wouldn't. For some that would be enough reason. |
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May 3 2006, 09:22 PM
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#42
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
It certainly isn't only you that is confused. This is one of those debates that, from it's home in a dank sub-basement mechincal room, has long powered the posting aparatus of DSF. :)
This certainly is one area that i really wish SR4 would have cleaned up better. They did cut a lot of deadweight out, but i think they came short in taking it apart enough to put it back together in an easy to grok and implement form. Hobgoblin's suggestion is a great example of opportunity lost. :( |
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May 3 2006, 09:22 PM
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#43
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That sounds like a good idea. Give it a try. Be careful trying it in my game though, because it wouldn't give you a free pass... :) I wouldn't let it block yourself from LOS, but that's just my personal opinion on the LOS-to-self rules, and an entirely different debate altogether. :) |
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May 3 2006, 09:23 PM
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#44
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
explain to me how it's not a free pass. use logic.
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May 3 2006, 09:24 PM
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#45
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I've never had a THAC0 debate. How did those go? ;) note: please don't answer, this is just a flippant remark about threads side tracking to D&D. :) |
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May 3 2006, 09:40 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
In my games people have heads that are connected to the rest of their body with a flexible material called "flesh" and a string of hard objects called vertabrae which are loosely fashioned to each other in a manner that allows them some range of pivoting. The flesh has this motor capability that allows it to control the yawn, pitch, and roll to the head. Then their eyes also have some motor control that allows them a measure of up and down and side to side control movement. All this allows the characters to see anywhere around themselves in a more or less full sphere, and in a surprisingly short period of time. This is abstracted to just a full sphere. Why? To avoid trying to track where everyone is looking at each moment in time, and because a combat phase represents an actual length of time. Oh, and also because there is already enough shit going on in the combat mechanics without stacking another festering wad of detrital hubris on top of the pile. You numbnuts. <---- This one is going out to all my fans, but especially for you Azralon. :) |
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May 3 2006, 09:47 PM
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#47
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If you want to assume for simplicity's sake that everyone is constantly panning their heads back and forth and looking over their shoulders, good for you.
If my group has no problems adding facing to the game, good for us. |
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May 3 2006, 09:50 PM
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#48
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
You certainly seem to have problems actually understanding the D&D rules to begin with, and a lot of other things like what exactly constitutes a "free pass". So please excuse my enormous doubt about the quality of your judgement. :please: |
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May 3 2006, 09:52 PM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
That's ok, I think you're a moron too. :)
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May 3 2006, 09:53 PM
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#50
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
The difference being that you've actually managed to prove that you are a moron. :P
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