 No surrender!, What's a GM to do? |
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 Sep 12 2005, 04:13 PM
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#26
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660  |
I think that likely. In addition, the SR setting tends to go out of way to indicate that the Star makes greater use of lethal force for less cause than would be acceptable today. Frankly I doubt many cop killers are taken alive. Thus the wise shadowrunner doesn't kill cops. |
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Sep 12 2005, 04:16 PM
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#27
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
I argue that it doesn't make a difference. Cop-work still attracts the same type of people: either idealists who care more about job fufilment than the bottom line, or crooked cops taking kickbacks from everyone and get off on the power of having a badge. Either type of person would not be kind to a cop-killer. The first would kill him to avenge their buddy and make the world a better place. The second because, damn it, noone messes with the Authority. (Edit) Er, whoops; I read that completely wrong. I guess I'm agreeing with you. :sleepy: :D Pretend that's ShadowDragon8685's post in the quote tags then :) |
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Sep 12 2005, 05:14 PM
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#28
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
So exactly who can a 'runner surrender to again? I have had D&D characters surrender. But i've never had a 'runner taken alive and concious, and the couple taken unconcious were nolonger playable. This is primarily a function of how the 6th World works, as the rules and descriptions are implemented by GMs.
I have seen an occational runner arrested or taken in for questioning. But those rare cases where when it wasn't clear that they were hosed. Well maybe the one of them, but he was a less experienced player and didn't realize that a piece of ware he had was highly illegal. The GM cut him slack and said it wasn't found, even though the odds of it not being were extremely slim. So basically to be taken alive in SR usually means the GM has to break rules to have it make sense to do from an IC POV. Some character builds being the exception. EDIT: Correction. I did have one PC taken unconciously, the whole team was in fact. We were given the "left for dead in the sewers, but we weren't dead because this incredibily skilled foe didn't know how to make sure we were dead" treatment. Ummm, ok. :| |
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Sep 12 2005, 06:47 PM
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#29
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
You had a way too nice GM.
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Sep 12 2005, 06:58 PM
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#30
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Not all SR campaigns are ran with such an approach. Yes some are ran with the concept of life is cheap and failure is final. Some have a more action-adventure favor where James Bond like plot points (such as being captured by the villian so he can brag about his master plan) wouldn't be out of place. The SR books and adventures themselves run throughout that range. The GM and players just have to be on the same page as to what is expected. |
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Sep 12 2005, 07:03 PM
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#31
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That is EXACTLY the attitude that breeds "never surrender". EDIT: Not to say that is a wrong attitude, you just should expect a certain reaction to being in such an environment. And yes Fox1, SR could be run differently by the GM. But it rarely is it would seem. "Life is cheap" as a prevailing attitude in the game world seems to be ingrained pretty damn deep in the core rules books. Widespread, organized organlegging anyone? |
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Sep 12 2005, 07:10 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
Well, if you really want to be evil, keep in mind that you can always take someone alive. That's what the nonlethal weapons and chemicals are for. "Never give up" doesn't work too well when you're convulsing on the floor unconcious.
Yes, I do encourage my players to try to get out of situations alive, or at least with as many people alive as they can. Still, you guys know my character turnover rate. |
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Sep 12 2005, 07:20 PM
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#33
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I've read a number of the books set in the setting, and own all the adventures. Judging form those, it comes across to me as "life is cheap" for no names who end up with the organleggers- but PCs have stock adventures with all the standard frills. In short, the dark no-win face-always-in-the dirt SR world is background favor for cool scenes and outlandish exploits. |
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Sep 12 2005, 07:30 PM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
It is important to remember that there are more alternatives to "wolf-style" than just unconditional surrender. There are, in order of usefulness, tactical retreat, stratigic withdrawl, negotiated ceasefire, negotiated surrender, and unilateral ceasefire.
Even when victory is unlikely due to overwhealming odds, there are these options. I wouldn't recomend unilateral ceasefire unless you were the aggressor and your enemy istn't the vengfull type. Negotiated ceasefire is the best option if you and your enemies have mutually compatible goals. When all else fails, a negoiated surrender could be your best bet. "Hey, guys, you don't want to kill me and I don't want to kill you. More importantly, I don't want you to kill me and you don't want me to kill you. Considering these facts, it might be in our best interests for me to leave you with this trinket that you want so much and for you to not shoot at me anymore" |
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Sep 12 2005, 07:42 PM
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#35
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Hyzmarca, we're dealing with criminals and Lone Star, not organized world powers fighting a war.
Really, is Lone Star going to accept a negotiated ceasefire, negotiated surrender, or a unilaterial ceasefire? No, they won't accept anything other than "Hands behind your head! Assume the position!" And once you're in Lone Star's system, it's up the creek for you. Nine for ten, Shadowrunners are very wealthy, very SINLess people. That means Lone Star can "oops" lose then in the paperwork, and get a large supply of organs to leg, and used bio and cyber. Where, exactly, do bootleg organs wind up, anyway? |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:07 PM
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#36
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Yep. You're thinking police again. Think "gang with badges". ~J |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:31 PM
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#37
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
I always try to give the PCs a chance to avoid a fight or the possiblity to flee. I never bring PCs in a situation where they are without chance to escape/ stay alive. |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:33 PM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
I'm partial to "Put down your gun and don't even look like you're thinking about calling for backup." myself, but your way works too. :P |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:35 PM
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#39
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Nothing I've read in SR indicates that this is the general case. Corp employee with badges... yes. Ganger? No. |
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Sep 12 2005, 08:55 PM
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#40
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I suppose it depends on whether you are playing a Prime Runner with a full Author's Beloved safety net. A lot of the characters that those metaplots turn on are far, far above the station of starting runners. Also it isn't just killing outright. A 'runner doesn't even need to die if the The Man takes her for her life to effectively end. If they rip all the super expensive 'ware from out of her body how many would want to entertain the concept of life back down on the farm after getting use to the thrill of MBW3? What about the practicalities of actually being able to survive, 'runners tend to build enemy lists over time. The ones that do want to live down on the farm, and for whom it is a feasible option, are already naturally weeded from the 'runner population since they have the option to have the stuff pulled and sold. |
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Sep 12 2005, 09:25 PM
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#41
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
They're underpaid, not-so-well-educated and (most of 'em) are willing to accept a bribe or run their or criminal business. The cop is not per se your friend in the 6th world. Don't think of them like the guys in "NYPD Blue" think more of "The Shield". |
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Sep 12 2005, 10:27 PM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
That's just not true. Many of the characters are shown at the start of their careers, others aren't runners and note themselves that they aren't in the same league as such 'professionals'. I sense a great deal of personal vision of Shadowrun that while valid, is just that- a personal vision. |
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Sep 12 2005, 10:32 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I disagree. As I noted elsewhere, they may well not be underpaided at all. Nor do they seem significantly less trained than many city level police dept. today. They are corp employees which means they answer more to a bottom line than the Law. As a result they also lack the strong traditions of today's law enforcement and live in a culture that splits people into SIN and SINless, this makes them more brutal in general and far less idealistic. It doesn't make them fools. |
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Sep 12 2005, 10:49 PM
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#44
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There are many different groups that PCs can find themselves running against. These incude, but are not limited to, private security firms, organized criminals, unorganzied criminals, honest to gosh police officers, megacorps, minor corporations, mom&pop businesses, world-spanning conspiracies, AIs, other shadowrunners, minor independant initiatory groups, major independant inititory groups, cults, BUGS, THE ENEMY, independant vampires, vampire groups, Free Spirits, berserkers, cyberzombies, drug addicts, blood mages, toxics, twisteds, petros, serial killers, rapists, child molesters, extortionists, incompetent bafoons, professionals, people who just want to get paid and go home at the end of the day, mindless ghouls, ghouls with INT 9, CHA 9 and WIL 10, and the matre'd who gave your vindictive partner a bad table. Some of these are more open to negoiation than others. For example, there is a nice run in Super Tuesday that has a group of Mantids conspiring to invest a VP canidate so that they can get out of the Chicago Comtainment Area. Now, these Mantids would certainly be willing to let you go if you help to proivde them with their target and esorted her (with a female Mantis in her skin) to safety. Also, as Grinder said, cops are not unbribable. Sometimes flashing bills and saying "Golly officer, I want to go with you be President Dunkelzhan here says that I should be on my way" actually works. |
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Sep 12 2005, 11:45 PM
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#45
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I sense that the novels are something different than the rules. ;) What i was getting at is that they are a different medium, which tends to (for various reasons) have a different tone. Stories where losts of the main people keep dieing off, including a rotating seat for the role of protagonist, are pretty rare in general. Stuff that novel characters tend to be made of scream 'munchkin' to many gamers. The odds can line up for them at the right times, so they can skirt much closer to danger and pull it out. Or because of advanced knowledge via the author they can have plans in place that make sense. Once a true die comes into play it is much, much tougher. Especially in an unforgiving environment like the SR rules, less so in for example D&D. I think it no small coincidence that the Dragon Lance novels were created from running under a heroic game system like D&D. SR isn't a heroic type system.
Yes, it is entirely up to the GM. But it is a vision that the rules strongly encourage. No, i'm not going to go quote by quote but the wide spread tendancy for widespread short brutal lives in SR games (both PC and NPC) is somewhat a testimate to that. Please note that i'm saying tendancy, not suggesting something without exception. |
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Sep 13 2005, 12:32 AM
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#46
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 530 Joined: 11-June 05 Member No.: 7,441 |
Actually, yes, I do think they will. The Star is a corp. Corps exist to make a profit. If you can show a reason why it is profitable (or less expensive) to let you go than to pursue the matter, then I don't see why LoneStar wouldn't negotiate a ceasefire/surrender/etc. And I mean this at every single level of LoneStar -- from the CEO down to the guy in the patrol car. Now, there may be idealists here and there, but as a whole, you have to remember you're dealing with a corp. Corps don't care about law and order for the sake of law and order. Corps don't care about honor or doing the right thing for their own sake. They only care about these things in so far as they impact the bottom line. The rule is to negotiate before you make it impossible for them to do so. If you kill someone's employee or buddy, they're less likely to be cooperative whether it's to prevent damage to morale or because they really liked the guy. |
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Sep 13 2005, 01:17 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I'm sensing that the modules published give me the same impressions as the books. Heck, I have old D&D modules that were more death dealing than SR. SR is no more inherently dangerous to PCs than any other RPG setting judging from all its background materal and suggestions provided for GMing there in. GMs who fall in love with the concept of "PCs should die instantly if they lose a single enounter" are just putting their own vision of what they feel 'should be' over the game, the same way that players who think opening up with a GL in A zone are. Nor do I believe that different mediums have to have different tones, rather they only need different methods. |
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Sep 13 2005, 02:38 AM
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#48
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
The arguments about the Star here actually closely resemble the ones in the Lone Star sourcebook (eerily, in some cases). While Lone Star IS a Corp, it is a Corp that benefits from an image, and in fact, their main revenue comes from selling that image. This is more important in cities where Lone Star has an exclusive contract than where they are competing with other corps (Megas, KE, other security contractors, whatever). The way a typical Star will behave is highly dependent on the region and even particular city.
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Sep 13 2005, 02:55 AM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 12-April 04 From: Lacey, Washington Member No.: 6,237 |
I'd say that runners are better off surrenduring to Lone Star than fighting them. A bribe doesn't require the cop to do any paperwork or risk his life. If he turns out to be the virtuous type, well, it's not like you aren't committing half a dozen more serious crimes with the 'ware you've got installed or the spells you know. Of course, you can't do this where the Lone Star guy might be caught out for taking the bribe. Thus, you can't expect to HMG a Stuffer Shack and then walk away like nothing happened.
As for Corps, I'd say you could surrender to any of them except Aztechnology. Sure, they can torture you and put a bullet in your head. But you can always offer them something more profitable in return. I'd think you could negotiate, too. The CorpSec guys might let you get out the front door if you promise not to hurt the hostages or blow up their special prototype. Not that they won't double cross you, but that's the fun part :grinbig: Really, the only humans you have to fight to the death are in organized crime. They've got a reputation on the street to uphold. Unlike the corp or the cops, if they show weakness by accepting disrespect they know it will be open season on all their operations. |
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Sep 13 2005, 02:57 AM
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#50
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, and MCT, on occasion. They have that "Zero Zone" thing going, where they pride themselves on 100% fatalities. You are more likely to run into facility defenses than sec-guards there, though. |
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