 An odd possibility, given the new similarities... |
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 Apr 6 2006, 08:58 PM
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#1
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
With the creation of technomancers and the similarities between the two systems, how long will it be before a mage/shaman manages to project himself into the Matrix?
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Apr 6 2006, 09:11 PM
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#2
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Warning: This is an old discussion that can't lead to a satisfactory conclusion. :)
But to answer your question, I'd personally say it'll never happen. Technomancy and tradition-based magic are entirely mutually exclusive, no matter their metaphysical/game-mechanical similarities and/or "real" origins. Maybe even the tradition-transcending dragons are confused by technomancers since they fall so far outside of the normal metaphysical paradigm. Or maybe they're just nodding their big ol' heads and muttering something about "it had to happen sometime." That said, ain't nothing stopping an official SR novelist (or private home GM) to suggest that technomagery hybridization can happen in the official timeline. I mean, we've got the novels showing us nuclear bombs affecting astral space and Sam Verner's shamanism accidentally creating a true AI... so all the cards are wild with respect to canonical "cosmic truth." I'm just waiting to see WTF is going to happen when they send a mage to Mars. |
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Apr 6 2006, 09:27 PM
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#3
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's pretty much what T:WL tells, too - such events create a mana wrap. |
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Apr 6 2006, 09:44 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ugh. one more reason to dislike technomancers.
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Apr 6 2006, 09:49 PM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 137 Joined: 21-February 06 From: Lenexa, Kansas (Yes Kansas, we ain't all hicks y'all.) Member No.: 8,291 |
I think it will really depend on whether the game is going more in the direction of having magic and technology merge, which I personally think is what is going on. Things like Cybermancy and Technomancers (not to mention the "spirit-nuke" from Bug City) look, to me, like the first steps of magic and tech truely becoming one. As such, these themes feature into games I run. Obviously it is still very much up in the air, and I think going in either direction is equally valid.
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Apr 7 2006, 04:54 AM
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#6
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Obviously Magic and Technomancy are mutually exclusive - yet, it is proven by game mechanics that Technomancy isn't Magic:
The quality Magic Resistance is mutually exclusive to Magic, too, but can be chosen for Technomancers. |
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Apr 7 2006, 06:43 AM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Mages may not divelop technomancer abilities to control teh Matrix, but if the metaplanes are just "conceptual realities" the matrix is a very likely candidate.
I've wondered this for a while, but up until recently the rules for the two were so disparate that contemplating some sort of crossover was a logistics nightmare. They're still far from transparent, but definitely closer than they've ever been. |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:15 AM
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#8
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it doesn't matter what the page references are, now, does it? :D
That'd be a pity, since the magic/machine duality has been a core theme of Shadowrun from the very beginning. Granted, there are other examples-- Ragnarok's weapon focus nukes come immediately to mind. Personally, I like treating them as yin-yang concepts, that reflect one another but do not ever truly merge.
Nitpick mode: It wasn't Sam Verner's shamanism that did it, it was Dodger's poking around that formed Morgana.
i would be *very* careful about introducing this into a game. If a mage developed otaku abilities-- or an otaku developed astral perception-- things would get sticky very quickly. The game could easily overbalance to favor one or the other. If you want to experiment with this, I suggest that you set up a metaplanar run to a "matrix metaplane", where everything is basically the virtual landscape. Afterwards, there might be hints that what they did had an effect on the real matrix... but nothing conclusive, so they never can know for certain. |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:24 AM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Truely scientific, indeed, just that wasn't what the post is about. You might want to read again. |
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Apr 7 2006, 07:35 AM
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#10
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
I know, which is why I put a smiley next to it. However, the point is that the otaku/magic rules are practically a cut-and-paste from one another. Saying that otaku abilities are just another form of magic isn't terribly far off the mark, now more so than ever. The rules act and feel the same, so James's premise can work thematically in a game... it's just that it could get unbalancing. |
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Apr 7 2006, 08:34 AM
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#11
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The problem is not 'unbalancing'.
I saw it happening once, and the result was an otaku awakend nano-enhanced transgender catgirl. :dead: |
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Apr 7 2006, 08:55 AM
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#12
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Simple answer here is: Technomancers have Resonance, Magicians have Magic. They are mutually exclusive. If they are different expressions of the same fundamental ability, then they're definitely at opposite ends of that particular spectrum.
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Apr 7 2006, 09:03 AM
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#13
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Grose similarities in the rules do not make otaku / technoshamans magical.
In order to work out if technoshamans are in fact magical you have to assense them. If a mage can determine wether somebody is a technoshaman buy assensing alone (as they can adepts) then it is probably magical. If a mage can see obvious mana manipulation while a technoshaman is interfacing with the wireless matrix then technoshamans are defiantly magical. If nether of the above are true then they are probably not magical. The above experiments (and many more) will certainly have been performed many times buy corporations, universities and curious mages that can track down a cooperative technoshaman it would be nice of fanpro to tell us where the evidence lies. Edward |
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Apr 7 2006, 09:10 AM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,073 Joined: 23-August 04 Member No.: 6,587 |
Other usfull experiments.
Point a old tech (no computer) RF detector at a technoshaman. What dose it detect. Obtain a technoshaman and perform CAT scans, MRI, anything else you can think of, while the technoshaman is awake, asleep and unconscious. Anybody got any more Edward |
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Apr 7 2006, 10:21 AM
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#15
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Just because ultraviolet and infrared are at the opposite sides of the spectrum doesn't mean they're not both light. And you can have something that emits light at the far ends of the spectrum simultaneously-- your everyday lightbulb shoots out stuff all over the spectrum. They act so much alike, we can call them the same thing, and have no problem with it thematically. It's only for balance reasons that people can't have both.
That sounds like a personal problem. If this keeps happening to you, you might like to speak with a professional dating therapist. ;) |
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Apr 7 2006, 02:00 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
More accurately, it was theorized as both simultaneously contributing. I omitted Dodger's involvement as superfluous to the discussion at hand. |
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Apr 7 2006, 02:36 PM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I understand what you're saying here; my personal belief is just that you're wrong. I think that Technomancerism is an expression of the Awakening, just like Magic is. Fine, they're different abilities, but (like someone below said) they're different in the same way infrared and ultraviolet are different: different expressions of the same basic laws. In 1st-3rd edition (read: before 2065), Shamanism and Hermeticism were quite distinctly different. Now, they're mildly differing expressions of the same thing. The otaku were nifty and could access computers with their minds; now, technomancers use almost exactly the same mindset (don't even get me started on ruleset) as magicians, just with Sprites instead of Spirits, Complex Forms instead of Spells, and the Matrix/Wireless World instead of Astral Space. Where you see two mutually exclusive things, I see two different but related traditions converging... And converging pretty quickly, at that. And I guarantee you that if my campaign runs long enough for me to work it in, it'll be a major story arc in the future. :) |
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Apr 7 2006, 02:45 PM
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#18
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't see Synner's and Neko's statements as incompatible. |
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Apr 7 2006, 03:54 PM
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#19
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm not overly concerned with giving mages the abilities of technomancers, as the required skillsets and reqource expenditures would be astronomical, and that would come out far in the future of the actual discovery that the matrix is a metaplane. I'm more interested in the ramifications it would have on the world just to have it known.
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Apr 7 2006, 03:54 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Within the quote (of mine) you extracted, they aren't. His point was, you can have one or the other, but not both; my point was, having one means you ALREADY have both, and it's just expressing differently... But that won't always be true. |
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Apr 7 2006, 04:40 PM
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#21
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Target Group: Members Posts: 31 Joined: 2-April 06 Member No.: 8,425 |
I thought Deckers were already in effect 'projecting themselves' into the Matrix. Even in earlier editions, the parallels were there.
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Apr 7 2006, 04:51 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the way the technology is described as working, deckers are not projecting themselves anywhere, any more than you're projecting somewhere when you put on a set of VR goggles today. their normal sensorium is suppressed and replaced with ASIST signals generated by their deck, based on information their deck sends and receives. even when a decker gets into a UV host, they're not projecting anywhere. sometimes, some of the novelists get kinda confused about that, but it doesn't change how things work.
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Apr 7 2006, 05:07 PM
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#23
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
If we're going to be in nitpick mode, the AI in question's name was Morgan, not Morgana. |
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Apr 7 2006, 06:10 PM
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#24
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
There is at least one canon example of a magically active otaku (or an otakular magician depending on your point of view). I don't know what he's doing post crash but he may be a technomancer now.
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Apr 7 2006, 06:19 PM
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#25
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Like Obi-Wan told Luke, it's all about point of view. Analogy: Dawn and dusk are two different states of the sky. They resemble each other quite a bit, but you can't have both in the same spot at the same time so they're two different things. However, depending on your point of view, they're both still the sky. It'd be less misleading to say that magic and technomancy are probably both aspects of the same thing rather than suggesting that they are the same thing. Semantics, yeah, but tricky wording can make people accidentally think they're disagreeing with each other. |
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