Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: An odd possibility
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3
James McMurray
With the creation of technomancers and the similarities between the two systems, how long will it be before a mage/shaman manages to project himself into the Matrix?
Azralon
Warning: This is an old discussion that can't lead to a satisfactory conclusion. smile.gif

But to answer your question, I'd personally say it'll never happen. Technomancy and tradition-based magic are entirely mutually exclusive, no matter their metaphysical/game-mechanical similarities and/or "real" origins. Maybe even the tradition-transcending dragons are confused by technomancers since they fall so far outside of the normal metaphysical paradigm. Or maybe they're just nodding their big ol' heads and muttering something about "it had to happen sometime."

That said, ain't nothing stopping an official SR novelist (or private home GM) to suggest that technomagery hybridization can happen in the official timeline. I mean, we've got the novels showing us nuclear bombs affecting astral space and Sam Verner's shamanism accidentally creating a true AI... so all the cards are wild with respect to canonical "cosmic truth."

I'm just waiting to see WTF is going to happen when they send a mage to Mars.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Azralon)
we've got the novels showing us nuclear bombs affecting astral space

That's pretty much what T:WL tells, too - such events create a mana wrap.
mfb
ugh. one more reason to dislike technomancers.
Waltermandias
I think it will really depend on whether the game is going more in the direction of having magic and technology merge, which I personally think is what is going on. Things like Cybermancy and Technomancers (not to mention the "spirit-nuke" from Bug City) look, to me, like the first steps of magic and tech truely becoming one. As such, these themes feature into games I run. Obviously it is still very much up in the air, and I think going in either direction is equally valid.
Rotbart van Dainig
Obviously Magic and Technomancy are mutually exclusive - yet, it is proven by game mechanics that Technomancy isn't Magic:
The quality Magic Resistance is mutually exclusive to Magic, too, but can be chosen for Technomancers.
James McMurray
Mages may not divelop technomancer abilities to control teh Matrix, but if the metaplanes are just "conceptual realities" the matrix is a very likely candidate.

I've wondered this for a while, but up until recently the rules for the two were so disparate that contemplating some sort of crossover was a logistics nightmare. They're still far from transparent, but definitely closer than they've ever been.
Cain
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
Obviously Magic and Technomancy are mutually exclusive - yet, it is proven by game mechanics that Technomancy isn't Magic:
The quality Magic Resistance is mutually exclusive to Magic, too, but can be chosen for Technomancers.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it doesn't matter what the page references are, now, does it? biggrin.gif

QUOTE
I think it will really depend on whether the game is going more in the direction of having magic and technology merge, which I personally think is what is going on. Things like Cybermancy and Technomancers (not to mention the "spirit-nuke" from Bug City) look, to me, like the first steps of magic and tech truely becoming one. As such, these themes feature into games I run. Obviously it is still very much up in the air, and I think going in either direction is equally valid.

That'd be a pity, since the magic/machine duality has been a core theme of Shadowrun from the very beginning. Granted, there are other examples-- Ragnarok's weapon focus nukes come immediately to mind. Personally, I like treating them as yin-yang concepts, that reflect one another but do not ever truly merge.

QUOTE
I mean, we've got the novels showing us nuclear bombs affecting astral space and Sam Verner's shamanism accidentally creating a true AI... so all the cards are wild with respect to canonical "cosmic truth."

Nitpick mode: It wasn't Sam Verner's shamanism that did it, it was Dodger's poking around that formed Morgana.

QUOTE
Mages may not divelop technomancer abilities to control teh Matrix, but if the metaplanes are just "conceptual realities" the matrix is a very likely candidate.

I've wondered this for a while, but up until recently the rules for the two were so disparate that contemplating some sort of crossover was a logistics nightmare. They're still far from transparent, but definitely closer than they've ever been.

i would be *very* careful about introducing this into a game. If a mage developed otaku abilities-- or an otaku developed astral perception-- things would get sticky very quickly. The game could easily overbalance to favor one or the other.

If you want to experiment with this, I suggest that you set up a metaplanar run to a "matrix metaplane", where everything is basically the virtual landscape. Afterwards, there might be hints that what they did had an effect on the real matrix... but nothing conclusive, so they never can know for certain.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain)
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it doesn't matter what the page references are, now, does it?

Truely scientific, indeed, just that wasn't what the post is about.
You might want to read again.
Cain
QUOTE
Truely scientific, indeed, just that wasn't what the post is about.

I know, which is why I put a smiley next to it. However, the point is that the otaku/magic rules are practically a cut-and-paste from one another. Saying that otaku abilities are just another form of magic isn't terribly far off the mark, now more so than ever. The rules act and feel the same, so James's premise can work thematically in a game... it's just that it could get unbalancing.
Rotbart van Dainig
The problem is not 'unbalancing'.

I saw it happening once, and the result was an otaku awakend nano-enhanced transgender catgirl. dead.gif
Synner
Simple answer here is: Technomancers have Resonance, Magicians have Magic. They are mutually exclusive. If they are different expressions of the same fundamental ability, then they're definitely at opposite ends of that particular spectrum.
Edward
Grose similarities in the rules do not make otaku / technoshamans magical.

In order to work out if technoshamans are in fact magical you have to assense them.

If a mage can determine wether somebody is a technoshaman buy assensing alone (as they can adepts) then it is probably magical.

If a mage can see obvious mana manipulation while a technoshaman is interfacing with the wireless matrix then technoshamans are defiantly magical.

If nether of the above are true then they are probably not magical.

The above experiments (and many more) will certainly have been performed many times buy corporations, universities and curious mages that can track down a cooperative technoshaman it would be nice of fanpro to tell us where the evidence lies.

Edward
Edward
Other usfull experiments.

Point a old tech (no computer) RF detector at a technoshaman. What dose it detect.

Obtain a technoshaman and perform CAT scans, MRI, anything else you can think of, while the technoshaman is awake, asleep and unconscious.

Anybody got any more

Edward
Cain
QUOTE (Synner)
Simple answer here is: Technomancers have Resonance, Magicians have Magic. They are mutually exclusive. If they are different expressions of the same fundamental ability, then they're definitely at opposite ends of that particular spectrum.

Just because ultraviolet and infrared are at the opposite sides of the spectrum doesn't mean they're not both light. And you can have something that emits light at the far ends of the spectrum simultaneously-- your everyday lightbulb shoots out stuff all over the spectrum.

They act so much alike, we can call them the same thing, and have no problem with it thematically. It's only for balance reasons that people can't have both.

QUOTE
I saw it happening once, and the result was an otaku awakend nano-enhanced transgender catgirl  dead.gif

That sounds like a personal problem. If this keeps happening to you, you might like to speak with a professional dating therapist. wink.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 7 2006, 03:15 AM)
Nitpick mode: It wasn't Sam Verner's shamanism that did it, it was Dodger's poking around that formed Morgana.

More accurately, it was theorized as both simultaneously contributing. I omitted Dodger's involvement as superfluous to the discussion at hand.
neko128
QUOTE (Synner)
Simple answer here is: Technomancers have Resonance, Magicians have Magic. They are mutually exclusive. If they are different expressions of the same fundamental ability, then they're definitely at opposite ends of that particular spectrum.

I understand what you're saying here; my personal belief is just that you're wrong. I think that Technomancerism is an expression of the Awakening, just like Magic is. Fine, they're different abilities, but (like someone below said) they're different in the same way infrared and ultraviolet are different: different expressions of the same basic laws.

In 1st-3rd edition (read: before 2065), Shamanism and Hermeticism were quite distinctly different. Now, they're mildly differing expressions of the same thing. The otaku were nifty and could access computers with their minds; now, technomancers use almost exactly the same mindset (don't even get me started on ruleset) as magicians, just with Sprites instead of Spirits, Complex Forms instead of Spells, and the Matrix/Wireless World instead of Astral Space.

Where you see two mutually exclusive things, I see two different but related traditions converging... And converging pretty quickly, at that. And I guarantee you that if my campaign runs long enough for me to work it in, it'll be a major story arc in the future. smile.gif
Azralon
QUOTE (neko128)
QUOTE (Synner @ Apr 7 2006, 03:55 AM)
Simple answer here is: Technomancers have Resonance, Magicians have Magic. They are mutually exclusive. If they are different expressions of the same fundamental ability, then they're definitely at opposite ends of that particular spectrum.

I understand what you're saying here; my personal belief is just that you're wrong. I think that Technomancerism is an expression of the Awakening, just like Magic is. Fine, they're different abilities, but (like someone below said) they're different in the same way infrared and ultraviolet are different: different expressions of the same basic laws.

I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't see Synner's and Neko's statements as incompatible.
James McMurray
I'm not overly concerned with giving mages the abilities of technomancers, as the required skillsets and reqource expenditures would be astronomical, and that would come out far in the future of the actual discovery that the matrix is a metaplane. I'm more interested in the ramifications it would have on the world just to have it known.
neko128
QUOTE (Azralon)
I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't see Synner's and Neko's statements as incompatible.

Within the quote (of mine) you extracted, they aren't. His point was, you can have one or the other, but not both; my point was, having one means you ALREADY have both, and it's just expressing differently... But that won't always be true.
sandchigger
I thought Deckers were already in effect 'projecting themselves' into the Matrix. Even in earlier editions, the parallels were there.
mfb
the way the technology is described as working, deckers are not projecting themselves anywhere, any more than you're projecting somewhere when you put on a set of VR goggles today. their normal sensorium is suppressed and replaced with ASIST signals generated by their deck, based on information their deck sends and receives. even when a decker gets into a UV host, they're not projecting anywhere. sometimes, some of the novelists get kinda confused about that, but it doesn't change how things work.
Moon-Hawk
QUOTE (Azralon)
QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 7 2006, 03:15 AM)
Nitpick mode: It wasn't Sam Verner's shamanism that did it, it was Dodger's poking around that formed Morgana.

More accurately, it was theorized as both simultaneously contributing. I omitted Dodger's involvement as superfluous to the discussion at hand.

If we're going to be in nitpick mode, the AI in question's name was Morgan, not Morgana.
hyzmarca
There is at least one canon example of a magically active otaku (or an otakular magician depending on your point of view). I don't know what he's doing post crash but he may be a technomancer now.
Azralon
QUOTE (neko128 @ Apr 7 2006, 11:54 AM)
His point was, you can have one or the other, but not both; my point was, having one means you ALREADY have both, and it's just expressing differently...  But that won't always be true.

Like Obi-Wan told Luke, it's all about point of view.

Analogy: Dawn and dusk are two different states of the sky. They resemble each other quite a bit, but you can't have both in the same spot at the same time so they're two different things. However, depending on your point of view, they're both still the sky.

It'd be less misleading to say that magic and technomancy are probably both aspects of the same thing rather than suggesting that they are the same thing.

Semantics, yeah, but tricky wording can make people accidentally think they're disagreeing with each other.
mfb
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There is at least one canon example of a magically active otaku (or an otakular magician depending on your point of view). I don't know what he's doing post crash but he may be a technomancer now.

i thought Leo's deck did all that. he himself isn't, as i understand it, an otaku; he just built a deck that works like an otaku brain. except a million times better.
Synner
QUOTE (neko128 @ Apr 7 2006, 03:54 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 7 2006, 09:45 AM)
I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't see Synner's and Neko's statements as incompatible.

Within the quote (of mine) you extracted, they aren't. His point was, you can have one or the other, but not both[...]

Actually no, my point was, you can be one or the other, but not both. I believe they are at two different ends of the spectrum post-human development and like ultraviolent and infrared they are the essentially the same phenomenon yet their properties and wavelengths are entirely different and unique.

QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There is at least one canon example of a magically active otaku (or an otakular magician depending on your point of view). I don't know what he's doing post crash but he may be a technomancer now.

If you're referring to who I think you're referring to (not Leo), he resurfaced a few months before the Crash 2.0 and Shadows of Asia provides clues as to what he might be up to in the Seventies.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (mfb)
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
There is at least one canon example of a magically active otaku (or an otakular magician depending on your point of view). I don't know what he's doing post crash but he may be a technomancer now.

i thought Leo's deck did all that. he himself isn't, as i understand it, an otaku; he just built a deck that works like an otaku brain. except a million times better.

Leo's deck and tech were onlysupposed tobe able to show their full power in the hands of an otaku

and synner: advertising on the boards again? nyahnyah.gif
neko128
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (neko128 @ Apr 7 2006, 03:54 PM)
QUOTE (Azralon @ Apr 7 2006, 09:45 AM)
I might be misunderstanding here, but I don't see Synner's and Neko's statements as incompatible.

Within the quote (of mine) you extracted, they aren't. His point was, you can have one or the other, but not both[...]

Actually no, my point was, you can be one or the other, but not both. I believe they are at two different ends of the spectrum post-human development and like ultraviolent and infrared they are the essentially the same phenomenon yet their properties and wavelengths are entirely different and unique.

You're just splitting hairs; the difference between the statements "having technomancer or magical abilities but not both" and "being a technomancer or magician but not both" is effectively nonexistent.

So yes, I know what you meant. I just don't agree. smile.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)
and synner: advertising on the boards again? nyahnyah.gif

Pretty much, yeah wink.gif - it's one of those obscure canon references that I like to draw upon and this one just went over most people's heads... then again it's no biggie most people didn't get the Orissa reference either.
fistandantilus4.0
If you guys are referring to Quicksilver, didn't he die? ... again?

spoiler tags just in case...
[ Spoiler ]
Synner
As far as I know Quicksilver was "only" a decker and magician not an otaku, so no I was referring to someone else. Clue: Not Leo.
hobgoblin
hmm, dodger? its only a wild guess nyahnyah.gif

QUOTE
If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it doesn't matter what the page references are, now, does it? biggrin.gif

to quote the best discovery program in ages:
quack, damn you!
Azralon
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Apr 8 2006, 03:50 PM)
to quote the best discovery program in ages:
quack, damn you!

Jaime from Mythbusters. Good stuff.

Adam's "I reject your reality and substitute my own" is also quite the quotable in Shadowrun and WoD Mage circles. smile.gif
fistandantilus4.0
QUOTE (Synner)
As far as I know Quicksilver was "only" a decker and magician not an otaku, so no I was referring to someone else. Clue: Not Leo.

ok, I wqas wondering about that, since I was under the impression that Qs was, as you said, ' "only" a decker and magician "'. So apparently I have some digging to do. At least I have something to do with my time at work tonight! biggrin.gif

IIRC, Dodger is a decker too. Although I never did finish reading through the trilogy. Never found the second book actually.

Synner, don't suppose you're feeling generous enough for another clue? smile.gif
Ophis
*quietly looks back a page*
It's Orissa isn't it?
Who in Heck is Orissa? I do remember the name from Shadows of Asia now its mentioned. Some one get me ancient history.
hobgoblin
no decker/hacker named orissa in SOA that i can find...

only orissa i can find is a whole lot about some magical network...
fistandantilus4.0
the Orissa stones are the network in India. I think he's referring to the little spat between Renraku and Yamatetsu. They're both trying to get the last stone in a dig in Mongolia. I didn't catch it in the text, but it's spelled out pretty plainly in the Game Information section. Of course, I tend to miss a lot of things, so he could be talking about something else entirely.

Either way, I'm sitting here with my SoA book while I'm waiting for my shift to end, hoping that Synner will pop on some time and at least suggest a section to read for it. I've gone through the whole book a few times and really enjoy it. But reading the whole thing again to pick out one reference that I missed all the other times is a little frustrating. If only I could bribe him with karma.....
Grinder
You can rad SR books and post on DS during your shift? I want that too!
fistandantilus4.0
the beauty of working tech support in a call center on a grave yard shift.
But now it's 6:30 am, so I am going home. Well, getting milk and garbage bags on the way because I have a 18 month old that drinks a ton of friggin milk, then fills up his diapers in case you wanted the particulars. Then I will sleep. Then I will run a game, because we play on Sundays. Then I will sleep some more. THen I have Monday off. Then I come back in on Tuesday at 10pm so that I can show off the fact that I can read SR book and post on DS at work. Seriously, you guys are the best part of my day. I'd go nuts here w/o DS. At least it gives me lots of time to practice drawing.
Synner
Since I know fistandantilus loves a treasure hunt, the next clue is: what do Venice, Orissa and the Great Work have in common?

Note that when I originally mentioned people overlooking the Orissa reference above, I intended it as a separate reference to hyzmarca's "magical otaku" (though as it turns out there might be a link wink.gif ). What I meant with the Orissa network is that ED buffs might notice the wink at an obscure Fourth World reference.
neko128
QUOTE (Synner)
Since I know fistandantilus loves a treasure hunt, the next clue is: what do Venice, Orissa and Leo have in common?

Bad hair?
hobgoblin
hmm, im not up to speed on leo so im going to give this a pass i think...
blakkie
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 6 2006, 02:58 PM)
With the creation of technomancers and the similarities between the two systems, how long will it be before a mage/shaman manages to project himself into the Matrix?

This forum has been down this silly road before.

Technomancer and mage mechanics are vaguely similar, but they are NOT the same. They are different enough that most people mistakenly equate Complex Forms to Spells when in fact they are closer to being Skills. I suspect that is because Complex Forms don't really have a magical equivalent.

Techonmancer != Mage.
neko128
QUOTE (blakkie)
QUOTE (James McMurray @ Apr 6 2006, 02:58 PM)
With the creation of technomancers and the similarities between the two systems, how long will it be before a mage/shaman manages to project himself into the Matrix?

This forum has been down this silly road before.

Technomancer and mage mechanics are vaguely similar, but they are NOT the same. They are different enough that most people mistakenly equate Complex Forms to Spells when in fact they are closer to being Skills. I suspect that is because Complex Forms don't really have a magical equivalent.

Techonmancer != Mage.

Calling it a "silly road" is insulting and non-constructive. Would you care to give a reason or support for any of your comments, or are you just trying to annoy people?

Obviously technomancer and mage mechanics aren't exactly the same. However, they're far closer to each other than anything else. Then again, mage and shaman mechanics aren't exactly the same, either; it's a degree of difference.

Complex Forms, at least from what I can see, are MUCH closer to spells than skills, and I have no idea why you say this. Would you care to explain?

Technomancers, obviously, are not magicians. Neither are physical adepts, or spellcasting adepts. However, the latter three all gain their powers from magic, so that isn't an entirely useful statement.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (neko128)
Then again, mage and shaman mechanics aren't exactly the same, either; it's a degree of difference.

In SR4, hermetic and shaman mechanics are exactly the same.

QUOTE (neko128)
Complex Forms, at least from what I can see, are MUCH closer to spells than skills, and I have no idea why you say this.

Because they are bought and used in a similar manner?

QUOTE (neko128)
Technomancers, obviously, are not magicians.

They are obviously not classed as awakend, either.
neko128
QUOTE
QUOTE (neko128)
Then again, mage and shaman mechanics aren't exactly the same, either; it's a degree of difference.

In SR4, hermetic and shaman mechanics are exactly the same.


Mages and shamans use different attributes for drain, and have different limitations on spirits they're able to summon. Small difference, perhaps, but definitely a difference.

QUOTE
QUOTE (neko128)
Complex Forms, at least from what I can see, are MUCH closer to spells than skills, and I have no idea why you say this.

Because they are bought and used in a similar manner?


They're learned more similarly to spells, though (you have to actually check to learn them). And beyond that, they also take the place of both weapons and armor in the matrix; there's no skill that's the equivalent of Armor, for example.

QUOTE
QUOTE (neko128)
Technomancers, obviously, are not magicians.

They are obviously not classed as awakend, either.


No, it's not that obvious, or at least not to all of us. How else would you describe a supernatural ability to interact with computer networks, in the context of Shadowrun?
James McMurray
Who said Technomancers and Mages were the same? What I said is that the rules are similar (note, not identical, but similar).

Also, I've wondered this since 1st edition when I first read about metaplanes. If metaplanes are just a different conceptual reality, then it's quite possible that the matrix may one day find itself being just another metaplane, given that every day corps are writing more and more tiny little chunks of conceptual reality for it.

Also, hermetic and shamanic magics aren't exactly the same. They use different stats, and shamans have a shamanic mask. They're almost completely identical, but they have slight differences (not that it really matters to the discussion, since it's about the matrix, not shamans and mages).
Witness
Personally I like to think that the truth may be somewhat the other way around. What if, long ago, ancients wove mana (and life) on Earth into a network (the Tapestry or the Great Pattern) which was a lot like a magical Matrix (Dragonspeech = machine code, True Name = commcode, Magic users = 'technomancers', Spirits = agents/sprites, Horoi = extradimensional hackers?).

Then along came the Matrix, a technological reinvention of the same basic principles. The dragons, of course, are fascinated by the parallels. And now and then it seems as if the technological Matrix so closely reflects its magical predecessor that the two resonate. Then along comes a new Matrix, even more similar to the Tapestry. The resonance becomes more powerful.

As the Matrix continues to evolve, I see the two networks merging. But maybe that's something to look forwards to in the Seventh or Eighth World.

Of course I'm probably just mad. Or deeply troubled. wink.gif
Grinder
QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0)
the beauty of working tech support in a call center on a grave yard shift.
[...] Seriously, you guys are the best part of my day. I'd go nuts here w/o DS. At least it gives me lots of time to practice drawing.

Maybe some day I'll have a similar job too. biggrin.gif But right now I'm working with mental handicaped people (no need to tell me about diapers) and stuyding.

@Witness: that's a cool idea smile.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012