Thanks
There's more. But I'll have to wait till my current game progresses a little further before I post some tantalising documents from the 2050s and 2060s for you guys to argue over!

blakkie: nobody ever said they were identical that I can see. In fact, the thread started because they are similar, not because they are identical.

Ok, so ignoring the complex forms thing, what do you think would be the rules and social ramifications of someone managing to project himself to the metaplane of the matrix, or somehow learn "AR Sight" instead of "Astral Perception?"

I'm not exactly sure what that means. I didn't realize I was trying to "defeat" anyone, just soliciting an opinion.

So then your stance is that it can't happen: why?

Glad to see you've got an open mind about these things.

Reasons why:

1) metaplanes are conceptual realities (theoretically)
2) the matrix is a conceptual reality
3) it is possible that the matrix is a manmade metaplane
4) initiates can project themselves into metaplanes
5) if 3 is true, then it is theoretically possible for a mage to project himself into the matrix

Possible rules ramifications:

1) would mages be able to manipulate the matrix (i.e. hack) or just visit it? In my game they wouldn't, because they're already good enough without being able to steal the thunger from the technodudes

2) Could IC or Agents attack a mage who was using his AR Sight? I'd say sure, but you wouldn't be present on the astral because you aren't projecting, so you'd be safe from attacks on that front

3) Can you put a ward on a computer and prevent a mage from entering its nodes?

Possible social ramifications:
1) antimagic groups have more to throw on the fire, because the average man won't know or won't believe it when the magical types tell them they can't use their newfound ability to Hack

2) several companies start up putting wards on computers to prevent mages from entering those nodes

3) Richard Villiers, aka Cyberzombie the Horror Dragon gets ticked off because now his plot to dominate the world by inserting agents into all the coffee makers is now in danger. And he'd have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling kids and their dog!

For your question: I don't know, as I don't follow SR canon history religiously, but I can think of lots of things a great dragon horror may want to do if he found himself in control of shaping how the matrix were made. For instance:

- he may want to strengthen its ties to another metaplane (the one that the horror is from) and use it to somehow open a portal for an assault force to move into Earth's reality.
- he may want to work it so that he can dowload his personality directly into the matrix, thereby becoming supreme god of all that is (or at least a facsimile thereof)
- he may want to use his power and wealth to get laid by sexy other horrors
- he may want to take the "why can't we all just get along" route and leave his hatemongering horror days behind him

As for rules ramifications, I can't really think of any, other than a verification that horrors are around and a need to stat a few up. Probably a "Horrors" sourcebook would be in order, giving new ways to create, summon, and combat them.

forgot reason why #6:

6) It could be fun

Well, I suppose there's only so far you can try to maintain a logical conversation with someone before they lose their mind. Nice talking to ya!

If you get some medication or something and want to try again, I'll be here.

i hate to say it, but i agree with blakkie. you're putting together this string of improbables, impossibles, and what-ifs, and then trying to explore the possible ramifiactions. the problem is, every link in your chain is variable, with its own different possible ramifications depending how exactly it works. the end result of all those possible branching ramifications is impossible to do more than speculate wildly on.

here is a mathematical representation of your question:

a+b+c+d=e
solve for e

If there were dogs on pluto their society would probably be much like dogs here (otherwise they wouldn't really be dogs). I assume they'd have to make some changes to account for the living conditions on pluto.

So what you're saying then is that the question opens up tons of possible repercussions, deepnding on the exact makeup of a, b, c, and d? Great! Care to list a few?

blakkie: Thanks again, but you're still not being very helpful. And as I said, I'm not really looking for canon SR here.

Let's say that all that back history didn't exist. Let's then say that someone manages to project themselves to the matrix (currently nobody knows how they do it any more than people know how technomancers do their thing).

What would happen?

I understand it's a difficult concept for you, especially given your apparent confusion when faced with something as simple as algebra, but I'd love to see you try and answer the question without throwing up the "it doesn't work that way" walls.

rescinded

Alternative question:

Let's say I want to introduce something that can enter the matrix, perhaps an awakened accountant monkey or soemthing similar. Now let's assume that the monkey has magical abilities (innate spells and so forth). What sorts of things would I have to look out for, and what possibilities exist for what the monkey could do while in the matrix?

Note, again, I couldn't care less if there are no matrix capable monkeys in canon SR. I also couldn't care less if there are references to monkeys and the matrix being incompatible, although I'd like to know the references, as at some point it'll have to be decided how the monkey got that way.

mfb: You apparently missed the "blakkie" tag. The crack was being made at blakkie, who has had no qualms about being insulting himself. The portion fo the post directed at you ended after "Care to list a few?"

okay. you've done that kind of thing before, so i've learned to expect it.

i, personally, despise the idea of otaku (yes, OTAKU!) being magical in nature. moreover, i'm not very happy with what my preciousss otaku have been turned into. so pontificating on the specific possibilities of the technomancer-as-magician concept doesn't really interest me.

I don't start the insults, and so far you've kept things civil.

If it doesn't interest you, why participate in a thread about it?

Tried to warn me about what? Vague "the board has gone there" stuff isn't a warning, it's a Cassandra Complex waiting to happen. Heck, you didn't even supply a link, just an off the cuff comment about this being a silly path.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. By "canon" I meant historical canon, not the rules themselves. Obviously some rules interactions will be necessary.

And again, if you don't want to help (note, I'm not looking for ahuge chunk of knowledge beamed to my head, but a few posts on what might happen) then why do you bother posting in a thread about it? I think it's obvious by now that you telling me "it ain't so" has not nor will change the fact that I'm curious.

Your "help" consisted of "we've already been there," "what if D-O-G spelled "cat?," and "go read every SR book ever written." Thanks again for your help!

FIN

Ok, first off, let me disclaim myself by saying that I do not buy the idea the idea that the Matrix is a Metaplane or that Technos are Mages, ect...

But, assuming for a moment that the next Manaspike causes the matrix to ascend into a True Metaplane, then I think the following Insanities would follow.

(1) Astral Space would get much, much more cluttered, as Wireless Transmissions, ect gained Astral Sigs much like spells.

(2) Magic becomes more difficult, as strong wireless fields equates into background counts.

(3) Technomacers and Mages would cease to exist, instead becoming Techo-Mages.

(4) The Matrix would no longer be safe or perhaps not even usable at all by Mundanes.

(5a) Magic now becomes possible in Space, as Wireless Tranmissions becomes the new 'Mana Field' instead of the Giasphere.

OR

(5b) Wireless Transmissions and computers start to break up and become useless outside the Giasphere.

The Matrix wouldn't be astral space, so anything happening in it shouldn't affect astral space any more than whatever strange occurrences happen in the other metpalanes make magic harder. Perhaps some leakage could occur in particularly strong (or weak) spots. Maybe every time the Azzies drop some major blood magic their network goes down.

"Hey! You got your power bolt in my IC!"

"You got your IC in my power bolt!"

I disagree, because even as a Metaplane the Matrix is still being generated by devices that exist on the Physical Plane, and we know that bleed-through does exist between the Physical and the Astral, so I believe that special rules would apply in this case. *winks*

True. Thanks for the food for thought and the lack of pointless flames!

Bending the matrix to my will

So you're saying that if the matrix were a metaplane somehow Russian kampgrounds in America would take over?

oh good UT weenies getting 'magic' powers
"Stop CAMPING my BEDROOM!"

My god! I get it now. It has been staring me in the face ever since SR4 came out but I just got it.

Neo is a technomancer!! That is how he was able to see stop the machines with his mind and how he was able to see them even when he was blind. It all makes perfect since now.

Thank you, Fanpro. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I understand now.

Do not try to hack the drone, simply realize that there is no drone.

I can't help but notice that everybody seems to think they understand the realm of magic, and they accept (without question) theories such as the Gaeacentric view of the manasphere and the Mayan Long Count / Ebb-and-flow-of-mana interpretation of the cycle of magic.
Surely the Matrix and its rules are something rather more concrete. Yet in this discussion (which personally I enjoy when it gets constructive), people would rather make the Matrix conform to their theories of magic than the other way around.
I blame Niels Bohr.

That's because to anyone who knows the slightest thing about computers or computer networking "it's magic" has always been the only explination for the matrix that makes even the tinniest bit of sense.