Full Version: An odd possibility
Hehe
| QUOTE (Witness) |
| I can't help but notice that everybody seems to think they understand the realm of magic, and they accept (without question) theories such as the Gaeacentric view of the manasphere and the Mayan Long Count / Ebb-and-flow-of-mana interpretation of the cycle of magic. |
I'm pretty sure that the Mayan Long Count interpretation is supposed to be established fact, considering that Ehran the Scribe states it as such. For those of you too lazy to click the link, here's what Ehran has to say about the Mayan calendar:
| QUOTE |
| The Mayan calendar is the most amazing [ancient calendar], as it contains a complete description of the magic cycles, including this current crossing of the Threshold. The Mayans described the cycles as “worlds”, and stated that only certain life forms made the transition from one world to the next. The calendar, written over 5,000 years ago, predicted the exact day the Threshold Level would be passed. Converting the Mayan dates to the current Christian calendar, it correctly states that the Threshold would be passed on December 24, 2011. On that day, the first Great Dragon was seen in Japan. The precision is amazing. When I advised The Pharaoh in creating the Egyptian calendar, I thought I had been as precise as possible, yet my calendar missed the Threshold date by over two years. |
Ehran the Scribe- that icon of modesty!
I'm not sure if Ehran knows everything that there is to know about magic (much as he might like us to believe to the contrary), nor that he is above spreading misleading information if it suits him (and he does like kicking those archaeologists when they're down). But *shrug*, who knows?
I do know that the Big D was slightly less starstruck by the Mayan Long Count:
I'm not sure if Ehran knows everything that there is to know about magic (much as he might like us to believe to the contrary), nor that he is above spreading misleading information if it suits him (and he does like kicking those archaeologists when they're down). But *shrug*, who knows?
I do know that the Big D was slightly less starstruck by the Mayan Long Count:
| QUOTE ("The Big D") |
| It's more accurate than most. |
I'm likely reading too much into this, but everytime I read that speech I can't help but think that Ehran is buttering up his audience with "Elven Secrets." The part about not letting the oo-mans know, but telling a huge group of elves at a dinner seems a little disingenuous. Besides, the YET is Ehran's pet organization, I suspect he is just playing to his audience and getting his Elven Nationalism on.
All these years of the great Otaku mystery (now repackaged as the TM mystery) remind me of the decades of speculation as to Wolverine's origins.
In the beginning, Wolverine's original creator secretly conceptualized him as a little feisty kid who wore gloves with built-in knives. Then another author took over and decided that nah, he's actually a short adult with cyberclaws. Then other authors along the way decided that his mysterious background took him through Japan, a World War, a pirate haven, high-level black ops, yadda yadda yadda.
The whole time we the readers never even knew his full name. We weren't sure who he was, where he originally came from, if Sabretooth was supposed to be his father, and all sorts of little subplots designed to tantalize rather than resolve.
In truth the authors knew better than to actually resolve Wolverine's mysterious past. Instead, multiple authors with their own little ideas all contributed to the intrigue because it helped sell comic books.
And then one day a Marvel author decided the mystery had gone on long enough. Wolverine's name is James.
....
Er, thanks, Marvel.
~~~~~
So likewise all this technomancer stuff would actually get less "cool" if we explicitly knew how it really worked. It's one thing to have years of wondrously speculative and circular discussions over the true nature of the SR universe, and it's another to read one day -- in canonical black and white -- that "Resonance is a form of ancient Martian magic."
I'd be like, "Oh. Okay. Well, that settles that. Sorta damages my continuity, but, uhm. Thanks for the memo.... I guess?"
I mean, imagine if the first episode of John Doe told us everything about him. Or if we found out what the real deal is on Lost. It just wouldn't spark our imaginations as much as the present mystery.
In the beginning, Wolverine's original creator secretly conceptualized him as a little feisty kid who wore gloves with built-in knives. Then another author took over and decided that nah, he's actually a short adult with cyberclaws. Then other authors along the way decided that his mysterious background took him through Japan, a World War, a pirate haven, high-level black ops, yadda yadda yadda.
The whole time we the readers never even knew his full name. We weren't sure who he was, where he originally came from, if Sabretooth was supposed to be his father, and all sorts of little subplots designed to tantalize rather than resolve.
In truth the authors knew better than to actually resolve Wolverine's mysterious past. Instead, multiple authors with their own little ideas all contributed to the intrigue because it helped sell comic books.
And then one day a Marvel author decided the mystery had gone on long enough. Wolverine's name is James.
....
Er, thanks, Marvel.
~~~~~
So likewise all this technomancer stuff would actually get less "cool" if we explicitly knew how it really worked. It's one thing to have years of wondrously speculative and circular discussions over the true nature of the SR universe, and it's another to read one day -- in canonical black and white -- that "Resonance is a form of ancient Martian magic."
I'd be like, "Oh. Okay. Well, that settles that. Sorta damages my continuity, but, uhm. Thanks for the memo.... I guess?"
I mean, imagine if the first episode of John Doe told us everything about him. Or if we found out what the real deal is on Lost. It just wouldn't spark our imaginations as much as the present mystery.
waltermandias: yeah that's more or less my reading of it too.
azralon: you're right of course, and one of the best aspects of SR's 'fluff' is the amount of liberty you have as a GM, even when it comes to interpreting 'canon'. I've spent a lot of time and done a lot of reading to come up with my SR 'theory of everything' and it's been fun. Chatting about it: no less so.
azralon: you're right of course, and one of the best aspects of SR's 'fluff' is the amount of liberty you have as a GM, even when it comes to interpreting 'canon'. I've spent a lot of time and done a lot of reading to come up with my SR 'theory of everything' and it's been fun. Chatting about it: no less so.
Actually though Az, thinking about it long and hard...
One could argue that part of the problem with the Wolvie arc was that so many mysteries were introduced that there could never be a satisfactory resolution. Same goes for Lost, etc.
Sure, a game like this positively thrives on GM and player interpretation, but that, perhaps, is a trick that only works for a while (look how fed up some people have evidently become with Lost: same thing can surely happen with SR- it just takes longer because there're such long gaps between 'episodes'.)
So I guess what I'm saying is... if, ultimately, you feel you've been strung along and the designers of your favourite fantasy had no great coherent picture in mind when they started it... sooner or later that's going to bite.
On the other hand, I do believe that- even with a 'history' as convoluted as SR, it is possible to construct a perfectly valid 'solution' that fits the available evidence, while at the same time opening up new questions and new mysteries. That- actually- is the wonder of science, as far as I'm concerned!
Sorry James McMurray, BTW, for perhaps distracting from your point. For what it's worth, I'll reiterate that I believe that the Great Pattern was a form of early Matrix, therefore the magical happenings that occur in the Matrix occur as a result of a resonance between the Matrix and the Great Pattern.
I do believe that a magical entity could, with the right portal, enter the Matrix, but I also entertain the possibility that a Matrix entity could, with the right portal, enter the magical realm (which interests me rather more what with the parallels between AIs and Passions)
Furthermore the Matrix 2.0 might have been engineered (by someone- I'm not saying who) to better reflect the Great Pattern and therefore to draw the two networks closer together.
Let me also say that I believe metaplanes to be the Great Pattern equivalent of Reality Filters, and that the materialization of Spirits in the physical realm might resemble a sort of ancient hologram/sologram technology that is now fundamentally built in to the Earth and its life-forms.
I also believe that the Gaeacentric view of the manasphere is false (holding as evidence the fact that Foveae have life but apparently not 'mana'), and that 'raw mana' is in fact present throughout the universe (to the delight of horoi), with Earth being perhaps the only exception on account of the Great Pattern acting as a sort of Firewall + Operating System of threaded mana that thereby limits Horoi abilities.
I furthermore maintain that the cycle of magic is not a predictable clockwork mechanism (compare your time-scales folks!) but rather a case of the Great Pattern 'rebooting' now and then.
To actually answer your question, I'm much more worried about AIs finding a way to turn themselves into spirits than spirits/mages finding a way to turn themselves into AIs. But then I believe that Deus is the re-emergence of Dis and Mirage is the re-emergence of Mynbruje.
Still, I think it's all pretty much inevitable and lays the way for a pretty interesting Epoch Seven, about which I may post some other time. And if you read through all of that, here, have a banana!
By-the-way, I am the Grand High Poobah of the Secestry of El, and may therefore not constitute a credible witness.
One could argue that part of the problem with the Wolvie arc was that so many mysteries were introduced that there could never be a satisfactory resolution. Same goes for Lost, etc.
Sure, a game like this positively thrives on GM and player interpretation, but that, perhaps, is a trick that only works for a while (look how fed up some people have evidently become with Lost: same thing can surely happen with SR- it just takes longer because there're such long gaps between 'episodes'.)
So I guess what I'm saying is... if, ultimately, you feel you've been strung along and the designers of your favourite fantasy had no great coherent picture in mind when they started it... sooner or later that's going to bite.
On the other hand, I do believe that- even with a 'history' as convoluted as SR, it is possible to construct a perfectly valid 'solution' that fits the available evidence, while at the same time opening up new questions and new mysteries. That- actually- is the wonder of science, as far as I'm concerned!
Sorry James McMurray, BTW, for perhaps distracting from your point. For what it's worth, I'll reiterate that I believe that the Great Pattern was a form of early Matrix, therefore the magical happenings that occur in the Matrix occur as a result of a resonance between the Matrix and the Great Pattern.
I do believe that a magical entity could, with the right portal, enter the Matrix, but I also entertain the possibility that a Matrix entity could, with the right portal, enter the magical realm (which interests me rather more what with the parallels between AIs and Passions)
Furthermore the Matrix 2.0 might have been engineered (by someone- I'm not saying who) to better reflect the Great Pattern and therefore to draw the two networks closer together.
Let me also say that I believe metaplanes to be the Great Pattern equivalent of Reality Filters, and that the materialization of Spirits in the physical realm might resemble a sort of ancient hologram/sologram technology that is now fundamentally built in to the Earth and its life-forms.
I also believe that the Gaeacentric view of the manasphere is false (holding as evidence the fact that Foveae have life but apparently not 'mana'), and that 'raw mana' is in fact present throughout the universe (to the delight of horoi), with Earth being perhaps the only exception on account of the Great Pattern acting as a sort of Firewall + Operating System of threaded mana that thereby limits Horoi abilities.
I furthermore maintain that the cycle of magic is not a predictable clockwork mechanism (compare your time-scales folks!) but rather a case of the Great Pattern 'rebooting' now and then.
To actually answer your question, I'm much more worried about AIs finding a way to turn themselves into spirits than spirits/mages finding a way to turn themselves into AIs. But then I believe that Deus is the re-emergence of Dis and Mirage is the re-emergence of Mynbruje.
Still, I think it's all pretty much inevitable and lays the way for a pretty interesting Epoch Seven, about which I may post some other time. And if you read through all of that, here, have a banana!
By-the-way, I am the Grand High Poobah of the Secestry of El, and may therefore not constitute a credible witness.
Hey, if I was the type to get upset at a thread being derailed every now and then I wouldn't start it on an internet forum. 
Thanks for the input. It definitely got my mind rolling around new crevices.
Thanks for the input. It definitely got my mind rolling around new crevices.
| QUOTE |
| I leave 500,000 nuyen to the American Association for the Advancement of Thaumaturgy, to educate the public about the nature of magic. Magic and science are equal parts of humanity’s heritage, and there need be no quarrel between them. --Big D's Will (emphasis mine) |
This is another tidbit that could mean nothing or could mean everything.
| QUOTE (Synner) |
| Since I know fistandantilus loves a treasure hunt, the next clue is: what do Venice, Orissa and the Great Work have in common? Note that when I originally mentioned people overlooking the Orissa reference above, I intended it as a separate reference to hyzmarca's "magical otaku" (though as it turns out there might be a link ). What I meant with the Orissa network is that ED buffs might notice the wink at an obscure Fourth World reference. |
Well , off the top of my head:
Venice and The Great Work are both things that Leo is interested in. Exactly what the Great Work is, is still debatable. There is the 4th world version where they are trying to make a perfect worl (or whatnot) by making the living world jsut like the land of the dead (or Lands of the West, or what not) , and as such, build the great monuments (pyramids, obelisks, etc). Leo is trying to recreate the G.W. and follows "Isis" (wonder if he's a fan of ISIS-9?) in the 6th world, and was chilling in Iran, after making a stop and leaving some clues in Venice (since he used to be a fan of the place) , cleansing the canals, and moving on.
Orissa:
The India of the fourth world Indris (sp?) was protected by another method of protection from the horrors. All the Therans knew about it was that there were 45 (I think that's the right number) people that basically sat around in meditation somehow protecting the people from the horrors. I always figured something having to do with some kick-@ss yogis and good karma-vibes-ness. Perhaps they were sustaining the Orissa network, and it made a metaphysical/astral wall? Kind of a a metaphysical kaer?
Also, there's the Ganges and the SURGE that hit through it in '61. Only tie-in there I can think of is Venice and the canals and the Nile river. Not having anything on the Nile though, I don't know really where to go with that tangent. There's also those pools in India that are supposed to grant enlightenment, but I think that's a reach.
Liek I said, this is just throwing out ideas off the top of my head I 'll do some reading a bit later and see if I can come up with anything better. How am I doing so far? Hopefull,y if I'm way off base, I'm at least throwing off some interesting ideas.
The Orissa idea BTW, I never really hit on before, becuase it's way off from the three suggested uses in the game info section.I thought the akashic memory idea was cool though. I had read up on that on my own and then started seeing it pop up in SR (in Egyptm and then the reference in the back of SoA) and thought it was really neat. No tie in to Venice though, that I've seen.
You might have to dig out Black Madonna to piece the bits together, but the final clues are "Little Devil" and "Etherlux".
damn, I knew that you were going to bring that book up. Not that I have a problem with it, but it happens to be sitting on the shelf at my house while I have SoA and SoE right here next to me at work. I'll see what I can dig up and get back to you on BM. Meanwhile, I'll see if my google-fu can pull up anything and dive on in to SoA .
I can't help but wonder also if it had something to do with that damn kid...
Oh, and Synner, thanks for giving me somethign to do at work.
I can't help but wonder also if it had something to do with that damn kid...
Oh, and Synner, thanks for giving me somethign to do at work.
"think I got it.
Etherlux, the company w/ access to the shrines
Owned by a kid in his mid twenties. Came up in the late fifties from a Renraku black bag account. A "prodigy" , "hailing from Iran of all places".
So the guy you're referring to is Leo's little androgynous sidekick form Black Madonna. The one that apparently relocated to India.
Blackbag account from Renraku- The whole project w/ Leo
Iran- Leo's little base for his Great Work was based out of Iran (recent reference from Blood in the Board room)
Mid-50's- the Black Maddona incident, was IIRC 55. I'll double check that.
I'll check the book because I don't recall him being magically active OR a decker, much less an otaku, but it has been a while since I read it
(pg63 SoA -IndiaSubcontinent by Peter Taylor) sneaky Synner
Etherlux, the company w/ access to the shrines
Owned by a kid in his mid twenties. Came up in the late fifties from a Renraku black bag account. A "prodigy" , "hailing from Iran of all places".
So the guy you're referring to is Leo's little androgynous sidekick form Black Madonna. The one that apparently relocated to India.
Blackbag account from Renraku- The whole project w/ Leo
Iran- Leo's little base for his Great Work was based out of Iran (recent reference from Blood in the Board room)
Mid-50's- the Black Maddona incident, was IIRC 55. I'll double check that.
I'll check the book because I don't recall him being magically active OR a decker, much less an otaku, but it has been a while since I read it
(pg63 SoA -IndiaSubcontinent by Peter Taylor) sneaky Synner
| QUOTE (FanGirl @ Apr 13 2006, 12:15 AM) |
| This is another tidbit that could mean nothing or could mean everything. |
A wonderfully constructed phrase.
| QUOTE (fistandantilus3.0 @ Apr 13 2006, 08:30 AM) |
| (pg63 SoA -India Subcontinent by Peter Taylor) sneaky Synner |
Aim to please. Like many of the current crop of authors, I tend to sprinkle this type of hidden references in the stuff I write (see the "Leo on ice" hint in DotSW or the hinted Black Lodge/Vigilia connection in Loose Alliances). I do it mostly for fun, but also because I know quite a few hardcore fans love to comb through the books for this sort of thing. Wait till someone digs up the Ordo reference in India ...
damn... something else to look up.
I've been wondering also if that reference at the end of System Failure about the genius elf everyone is trying to extract from S-K is Leo. Normally I wouldn't look at it twice, except that it mentions that Scale is guarding him. That makes it pretty significant.
Oh, and I like sprinkles.
I've been wondering also if that reference at the end of System Failure about the genius elf everyone is trying to extract from S-K is Leo. Normally I wouldn't look at it twice, except that it mentions that Scale is guarding him. That makes it pretty significant.
Oh, and I like sprinkles.
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