Legal Age in the SR world, no minors after 8:00pm... Options

[Kyoto Kid]

So,

This came up in our group. I tend to play fairly young characters, and was wondering just what the legal adult age in the UCAS & Seattle in the post matrix crash era is. The only reference to "majority age" I have been able to find comes from the TT sourcebook where it mentions about the "Rite of Passage". According to Tir custom/law, an elf who reaches the age of 18 and passes the rite is considered a legal adult.

[fistandantilus4....]

IIRC, it's still 18, which really screws orks and trolls, that have almost half a humans life expectancy, and 'mature' around 15.

[FrankTrollman]

The age of majority doesn't mean the same thing in the post crash era as it does in today's world. Even in 2006, being a minor gives you certain protections - your legal record will eventually be sealed, your parents can bail you out of contracts, and people who attempt to exploit your inexperience for sex face hefty legal penalties. In 2070, you can pretty much forget all that.

Being a minor doesn't mean that you face a more understanding judiciary, nor does it mean that certain products are barred to you. Being an "adult" changes your economic standing in the international corporate arena in essentially no way. All the age of majority does in any country is act as a bureaucratic hoop that people have to leap through before they can take advantage of civil services.

So in 2070 Lonestar doesn't give a crap if you're five or twentyfive. Aztechnology will sell you tequilla whether you can see over the bar or not. But the UCAS will still make you "prove your age" before they will let you vote or benefit from government programs - which is essentially just a way to keep the tuskers down (considering how poorly the government maintains documenation on the ages of Orks and how hard it is to tell an Ork's age just by looking at them).

So if you want to have consensual sex with a 2 year old clone with a persona-fix of Ms. Daviar, go ahead. Lonestar honestly doesn't care.

-Frank

[Kremlin KOA]

18 in TT and 'respectable' places
In more disreputable areas kids just pay an exttra cover charge

[hyzmarca]

As much fun as Frank's interperation is, I just don't see it.So-called civilized nations and corporations won't have that kind of attitude simply because of the related problems that it will cause. Today, the most common emotional reaction to people who abuse children is the desire to kill them in the most grusome way possible. That is a survival instinct. People are programed by evolution to protect children simply because it is the best way to ensure the propagation of human genes. That won't change in sixty years.

If governments decide to let people get away with having intercorse with a BTLed two year old then the citizens won't. The result is the number of lynchings in that nation will skyrocket. Unless the government is so libertarian that it also decriminalizes murder, the negative consequences of such an atitude far outweigh the benefits.

Will Lonestar the corporation care about the age of a criminal in Seatle? Probably not. Will a Lonestar beatcop care? Probably so. Will Lonestar fufil its contract according to local law? Of course.

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Corporations are going to require that children go to school, at the very least. Megas will certainly have their own schools. Why? Because children are the future. They cannot disobey. Uneducated children are useless to a corp because they crow up into uneducated employees. Unskilled labor can be handeled by robots for far less than the basic human cost of living. In situations that require human decisionmaking a supervisor can give orders to the robots.
Skilled labor will still be very important. You can't just get skillwires and chip it without losing some quality. Technical and social skills will be of the utmost value to a corporation. Since megas want skilled employee they'll certainly make sure that their future employees are educated.

Governments, on the other hand, have it differently. Those with school systems are going to find themselves burdened by them but education is still important for the economy. Educated labor may be lost to other nations or to Megas, but there are still plaenty of businesses that don't have extraterritoriality. Thus, it will be a mixed bag. In the UCAS, the SINless can't expect an education past some instructasofts. The upper class can aford priviate schools. This just leave the middle class for the government to educate. The UCAS may or may not provide free education for them, depending on your interpretation.

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In some places today, militias draft children as young as 6 into combat service. The way I see it, if a 6 year old empties a kolashnikov into my squadmate and then procedes to reload, I'll see him or her as an enemy who is reloading first and a child second and I'll kill the kid's hoop dead.

The difference between then and now is that there are places in the UCAS that are practically third world countries unto themselves. In Z Zones one can expect to see children wielding firearms in combat because many have no other choice. Some gangs may recruit young and provide orphaned and discarded children with a safety net in return for their loyality and their gunarms. Other gangs may recruit yound and kill anyone who refuses. In a dog-eat-dog world you either eat or get eating and puppies don't get a free pass. Which is why I say that any johnson who doesn't take a child seriously needs to be shot by an eight-year-old ganger.

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The age of majority may vary from place to place but there will be one in most places. In may of these places it will have some meaning although that meaning will certainly vary. I can't see the UCAS being much different from the U and Canada today.

[Critias]

[hyzmarca]

I missed the clone part. Of course, clones in SR are just hunks of meat anyway. They have no place in the discussion of how minors are treated.

[stevebugge]

In Seattle it's probably a combination of US and Canadian Law, meaning that the must be 21 to drink law has probably reverted to 18 years of age. Drivers Lisences probably still are 16. Goverment retirement benefits (Social Security) etc in whatever form they exist probably don't start until one reaches their late 70's. Of course to have any legal protection or benefit from any of this one has to have a valid SIN anyway, so most runners can probably just write the discussion off as academic.

The million Nuyen question is if the ridiculous "No smoking in or within 25 feet of any enterance of any place of business or public building" law survived to 2070 (wouldn't that just give the Star a whole new grounds to harass people at will)

[Fedifensor]

[Zolhex]

[Aku]

Actually, imo, the sexual conduct with a minor has less to do with religion now as opposed to then (most of the worlds religions have by and large been established for more than 500 years now) but more to do so with health and life expectancy. When they realize that you're average life expectancy barely reaches the 40's, if that, and they realize you cn bare child at around 13, ya better get them working fast.

[FrankTrollman]

Yes, the whole idea that you weren't allowed to have sex with 12 year olds was a relatively recent one. "Child Pornography" was widely available in Europe in the late 1800s, and was only illegal because all pornography was under harsh religious laws in place at the time.

A preponderance of people have felt that you shouldn't marry and screw little girls only in industrial societies, and only in the last 150 years or so. With the basic collapse of the welfare state, that brief cultural backlash against sleeping with children would fade away again except perhaps in the corporate arcologies themselves. Outside the wealthier districts, in the countryside of benighted countries in Central Asia, Africa, and whatnot, there was never a scruple against marrying off children, and decades of exploitive corporate rule won't have inculcated one.

But while the sexual mores of modern day "developed countries" may hang on in Corporate Enclaves, there's no way that would extend to contract law, or proscribed substances. No corporate extraterritorial is going to invest time and money into not selling goods and services to potential customers of any particular age.

---

Long story short:

If you want to sleep with a 14 year old, do it in the Barrens where noone cares.

If you are a 14 year old and want to buy a bottle of vodka, do it in an Evo Arcology where noone cares.

If you want to rape a 14 year old, there's nowhere on Earth that's going to be particularly happy with you, so you'd better keep it quiet enough that noone finds out. Ever.

-Frank

[Kyoto Kid]

...whoah. Didn't expect the discussion would go this deep.

First off, Thanks for the responses

I was mainly looking for help on how the age issue related to things like getting into places for meets & buying certain gear, renting a doss etc. This question came to light because the rest of the group I'm involved with apparently sees character age as an issue where it wasn't before.

KK 4.1 (SR4) is 18. Her SR1 - SR3 counterpart started at 15 (basically she was a street kid turned adept). Before she never had trouble getting into meets as long as there were older runners with her. She just wouldn't be served any alcohol (which was fine by her considering her father had a severe drinking problem & she had no desire to follow his footsteps). Now I find out her new incarnation is often barred from meets in clubs & bars which, has caused some player-vs-player & character friction. I was hoping there would be some "official" word that I could use to try and defuse the situation other than redesigning the character.

[FrankTrollman]

In the corporate controlled future, why would any club voluntarily not sell entrance to anyone unlikely to cause trouble? That just doesn't make financial sense.

And if it doesn't make financial sense, Shadowrun corporations aren't going to do it. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Bar owners fought the age laws tooth and nail, now that they can write their own laws, why would they uphold them?

-Frank

[hyzmarca]

Specific age of consent is a social construct. One can see that simply by how it varies wildly cfrom one society to another. However, one thig that does not vary is puberty. No society has an age of consent that is likely to come before an individual reaches puberty. The traditional age of consent in English law was ten. Girls experience puberty between 9-12.

The age of consent has steadily increased in industrial societies in so small part due to the social effects of the indistrial revolution. The need for more education combined with more labor saving devices resulted in people spending more and more time in school. It began as an artifical social construct called 'childhood', which justified mandatory government provided schooling. As educational requirement increased newer age classess were invinted so that this mandatory schooling could be extended. Now, with college education being almost necessary for survival a 22 year old is considered a child in some respects.

This juvilialization of industrial societies contributes a great deal to the economy in the long term but, oddly, it goes against the biological realities of industrial citizens. Better enecomy leads to better nutrition. Better nutrition leads to earlier puberty. The mode age at which children begin puberty is slowly but steadily becomming lower, which some rather freekish extremes. Pubecent two-year-olds are rare put not unheard of. The youngest girl every to carry a child to term was five. Obviously, pregency at such a young age carries problems, not the least of which is size. A two-year-old smply isn't large enough to carry a child to term while a five-year-old can't possibly give birth. The latter problem can be solved through surgery which is common in industrial socities. The former cannot. For these reasons, among others, placing an age of consent strictly at puberty may not be a good idea. It doesn't change the fact that pubesent children are constantly being told to have sex by every hormone in their bodies and when law fights biology law usually loses.

The reality of indistrial and post-industrial society is that children who have sex at an early age are statistically less fit to be employees and thus contribute less to the economy. Both potential psycological effects combined with the burden of childrearing make it difficult for those who have sex at an early age, speficially girls, to contribute to the workforce. At the same time, medicine is making it easier to have sex with becomming pregnant. That just leaves that potential phycological complications which are as much a product of society as they are biological reality.

This leaves two potential solutions to sex among juvililes. 1, be open and permissive and hand out birthcontrol like it was candy or 2, be extremely anti-sex and discourage it as best as is possible. History shows that the latter is difficult but this doesn't stop some from trying. The former is far more reliable but it has its own problems, as well.

I can see the age of consent being lowered in the future, possibly as low as 12. With the anarchaic combonation of conservativism and government apathy it is a tossup. Conservatives, be they true to their moniker, would wnt to lower the age of consent or get rid of it all together. Small government and all. However, the conservative ranks tday are dominated by people who are anything but in some ways. They desire to enfoce their own sexual values against society at large. So, the actual age of consent could be very low or very high. It is simply a matter of flavor for your personal game world.

[FrankTrollman]

[hobgoblin]

when it comes to sex, things have allways been more about feelings then about logics. before WW1 paris had prostitution under legal control, regual checkups and police protection. then comes the war and the generals start to worry about the moral of the troops. presto, prostitution is baned...

if there is one thing thats permanent, its change...
this covers all areas, only the change can happen at diffrent speeds.

legal drinking age? i would say it varies wildely. some person selling moonshine (optionaly with syntetic flavor added) out of a old basement in the barrens would not care less as long as he gets his money. the expensive and currently hip place to be downtown would be careful about their rep. but if some big-shot from a A level or higher corp shows up with his kids and their "friends", who is going to refuse him?

[September]

Random observation; does an ork or troll, even one with a SIN and good standing, really stand a chance of living long enough to collect pension, social security, and the like?

[FrankTrollman]

[Brahm]

I have to largely agree with FrankTrollman. Even in within first tier industrial countries age of consent drops quite low. Even in less populated areas areas of North America the defacto age lowers because either there aren't as many people of the similar age that aren't related. Coupling with a blood relative being a taboo that is much more respected because of well known, serious offspring conciquences. But even then in some very small, remote locations such as Newfoundland outport villages very difficult to avoid because of past relative mingling and very small populations.

Where people sit is usually in close proximity to where they stand. Laws imposed that do not fit with the practical needs and desires of a large portion of the population die a quick death. If not officially, then unoffically. The later being to the overall determent of the society. That was the biggest lesson of the US Prohibition, which was also one of the purity movements FrankTrollman is talking about.

[hyzmarca]

Serves me right for making such a blanket statement without including the correct caveats. It should read "No society that I am aware of has an age of consent that is come before it is possible for an individual to have reached puberty."

Drinking age is another matter. Some corps will keep it simply to keep their employees and customers happy. Joe Wageslave doesn't want his 10 year old daughter to come home high and drunk after a giant orgy in the backroom of a popular bar. However, the drinking age will almost certainly be lowered to 18 at the most. The only reason that the drinking age is 21 in the States is that some idiot thought that it would help prevent drunk driving. After that law was declared unconstitutional Congress decided that it wouldn't give any road construction funds to states that had a drinking age lower than 21. Personally, I would have written a law that took effect they day before the checks were sent out and sunsetted the day after, but most state legislatures are lazy.
At any rate, with the invention of autonav there is no reason for that. It won't reduce drunk driving because drunk driving isn't a problem. Your car will just take over for you.


Actually Brahm, scientific studies have shown otherwise. Being first cousins increases the chance of making a baby that has birth defects to a smaller degree than being a smoker does. If people who smoke are alow to get married then people who are related should be too, if all you're basing it on is genetics. It takes habitual milti-generational incest to really start piling on the genetic problems.


I can see there being a double standard in many corporate enclaves when it comes to age of consent. Citizens would have a realitivly high age of consent, on par with modren industrial nations while the age of consent for those without corporate SINs would effectivly be zero. I would imagine that some corporations send recruiters out into z-zones to pick up some potentially talented young prostitutes to cater to employees with unusual tastes. For such children it could either be a one and only chance at a great life or a horrific nightmare, depending on how the corporation played it. The former is far more likely than the latter, all things considered and I can see some parents happily handing their children over to such a life simply because it would be better than existance in a z-zone.

[jervinator]

Odd thought. I remember the Gnomes (Dwarf-variant common in parts of Europe) had a child-like stature/physique. If combined with the Human Looking edge....

How would this all affect a 25 year old runner than looked like they were 12?

[Brahm]

[Space Ghost]

i think the real problem, in regards to the original post, is that any place that a Johnson would want to meet shadowrunners in would probably be the type of place that doesn't want kids hanging around. The guy at the door can deny you entrance based on how you look or what you wear, so he can definetely keep the kiddies out regardless of legal age. As for selling things to kids, i think it's better for retail. A corporation will recognize that selling a bottle of vodka to kids = money. A bar owner will realize that letting kids come in and drink might mean that he brings all his friends. After all, kids don't want to hang out with a bunch of old guys, right? Now your bar becomes the place to be for all the 14 year old to get drunk. That can be profitable if the kids have a big allowance, but your older costomers (the ones who have jobs and can afford to really drink) will dissappear.

i believe that the places that would let kids in will cater to kids. If you see a 33 year old go in there, he's a creep, a drug dealer or someone's dad.

[Brahm]