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Kyoto Kid
So,

This came up in our group. I tend to play fairly young characters, and was wondering just what the legal adult age in the UCAS & Seattle in the post matrix crash era is. The only reference to "majority age" I have been able to find comes from the TT sourcebook where it mentions about the "Rite of Passage". According to Tir custom/law, an elf who reaches the age of 18 and passes the rite is considered a legal adult.
fistandantilus4.0
IIRC, it's still 18, which really screws orks and trolls, that have almost half a humans life expectancy, and 'mature' around 15.
FrankTrollman
The age of majority doesn't mean the same thing in the post crash era as it does in today's world. Even in 2006, being a minor gives you certain protections - your legal record will eventually be sealed, your parents can bail you out of contracts, and people who attempt to exploit your inexperience for sex face hefty legal penalties. In 2070, you can pretty much forget all that.

Being a minor doesn't mean that you face a more understanding judiciary, nor does it mean that certain products are barred to you. Being an "adult" changes your economic standing in the international corporate arena in essentially no way. All the age of majority does in any country is act as a bureaucratic hoop that people have to leap through before they can take advantage of civil services.

So in 2070 Lonestar doesn't give a crap if you're five or twentyfive. Aztechnology will sell you tequilla whether you can see over the bar or not. But the UCAS will still make you "prove your age" before they will let you vote or benefit from government programs - which is essentially just a way to keep the tuskers down (considering how poorly the government maintains documenation on the ages of Orks and how hard it is to tell an Ork's age just by looking at them).

So if you want to have consensual sex with a 2 year old clone with a persona-fix of Ms. Daviar, go ahead. Lonestar honestly doesn't care.

-Frank
Kremlin KOA
18 in TT and 'respectable' places
In more disreputable areas kids just pay an exttra cover charge
hyzmarca
As much fun as Frank's interperation is, I just don't see it.So-called civilized nations and corporations won't have that kind of attitude simply because of the related problems that it will cause. Today, the most common emotional reaction to people who abuse children is the desire to kill them in the most grusome way possible. That is a survival instinct. People are programed by evolution to protect children simply because it is the best way to ensure the propagation of human genes. That won't change in sixty years.

If governments decide to let people get away with having intercorse with a BTLed two year old then the citizens won't. The result is the number of lynchings in that nation will skyrocket. Unless the government is so libertarian that it also decriminalizes murder, the negative consequences of such an atitude far outweigh the benefits.

Will Lonestar the corporation care about the age of a criminal in Seatle? Probably not. Will a Lonestar beatcop care? Probably so. Will Lonestar fufil its contract according to local law? Of course.

----------

Corporations are going to require that children go to school, at the very least. Megas will certainly have their own schools. Why? Because children are the future. They cannot disobey. Uneducated children are useless to a corp because they crow up into uneducated employees. Unskilled labor can be handeled by robots for far less than the basic human cost of living. In situations that require human decisionmaking a supervisor can give orders to the robots.
Skilled labor will still be very important. You can't just get skillwires and chip it without losing some quality. Technical and social skills will be of the utmost value to a corporation. Since megas want skilled employee they'll certainly make sure that their future employees are educated.

Governments, on the other hand, have it differently. Those with school systems are going to find themselves burdened by them but education is still important for the economy. Educated labor may be lost to other nations or to Megas, but there are still plaenty of businesses that don't have extraterritoriality. Thus, it will be a mixed bag. In the UCAS, the SINless can't expect an education past some instructasofts. The upper class can aford priviate schools. This just leave the middle class for the government to educate. The UCAS may or may not provide free education for them, depending on your interpretation.

---------

In some places today, militias draft children as young as 6 into combat service. The way I see it, if a 6 year old empties a kolashnikov into my squadmate and then procedes to reload, I'll see him or her as an enemy who is reloading first and a child second and I'll kill the kid's hoop dead.

The difference between then and now is that there are places in the UCAS that are practically third world countries unto themselves. In Z Zones one can expect to see children wielding firearms in combat because many have no other choice. Some gangs may recruit young and provide orphaned and discarded children with a safety net in return for their loyality and their gunarms. Other gangs may recruit yound and kill anyone who refuses. In a dog-eat-dog world you either eat or get eating and puppies don't get a free pass. Which is why I say that any johnson who doesn't take a child seriously needs to be shot by an eight-year-old ganger.

---------------------

The age of majority may vary from place to place but there will be one in most places. In may of these places it will have some meaning although that meaning will certainly vary. I can't see the UCAS being much different from the U and Canada today.
Critias
QUOTE
So if you want to have consensual sex with a 2 year old clone with a persona-fix of Ms. Daviar, go ahead. Lonestar honestly doesn't care.

Is not the same as...
QUOTE
If governments decide to let people get away with having intercorse with a BTLed two year old then the citizens won't.
hyzmarca
I missed the clone part. Of course, clones in SR are just hunks of meat anyway. They have no place in the discussion of how minors are treated.
stevebugge
In Seattle it's probably a combination of US and Canadian Law, meaning that the must be 21 to drink law has probably reverted to 18 years of age. Drivers Lisences probably still are 16. Goverment retirement benefits (Social Security) etc in whatever form they exist probably don't start until one reaches their late 70's. Of course to have any legal protection or benefit from any of this one has to have a valid SIN anyway, so most runners can probably just write the discussion off as academic.

The million Nuyen question is if the ridiculous "No smoking in or within 25 feet of any enterance of any place of business or public building" law survived to 2070 (wouldn't that just give the Star a whole new grounds to harass people at will)
Fedifensor
QUOTE (stevebugge)
In Seattle it's probably a combination of US and Canadian Law, meaning that the must be 21 to drink law has probably reverted to 18 years of age.

In Poison Agendas, the new SR book by Steve Kenson, the main character uses a fake ID to get into a club (she's 19, the card says 22). So I think the drinking age is 21, at least in Seattle.
Zolhex
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
Today, the most common emotional reaction to people who abuse children is the desire to kill them in the most grusome way possible. That is a survival instinct. People are programed by evolution to protect children simply because it is the best way to ensure the propagation of human genes.

Ok first off to everyone let me say this is an observation only so don't go getting all upset with me.

Now then hyzmarca most of your post has good thought however the part I selected has a problem.

that part is this: People are programed by evolution to protect children.

Like I said no offence but history shows (go back say 3 or 4 hundred years) that from as early as 11, 12 years old it was ok to be in a relationship that may have included sex. NOT rape NOT abuse a relationship the main reason people have anything to say today regarding minors vs. sexuall acts or other acts is simply due to the various religions in the world.

Evolution could care less but hey that is just a passing thought I had again no offence just history showing the differences in todays world vs. the past.
Aku
Actually, imo, the sexual conduct with a minor has less to do with religion now as opposed to then (most of the worlds religions have by and large been established for more than 500 years now) but more to do so with health and life expectancy. When they realize that you're average life expectancy barely reaches the 40's, if that, and they realize you cn bare child at around 13, ya better get them working fast.
FrankTrollman
Yes, the whole idea that you weren't allowed to have sex with 12 year olds was a relatively recent one. "Child Pornography" was widely available in Europe in the late 1800s, and was only illegal because all pornography was under harsh religious laws in place at the time.

A preponderance of people have felt that you shouldn't marry and screw little girls only in industrial societies, and only in the last 150 years or so. With the basic collapse of the welfare state, that brief cultural backlash against sleeping with children would fade away again except perhaps in the corporate arcologies themselves. Outside the wealthier districts, in the countryside of benighted countries in Central Asia, Africa, and whatnot, there was never a scruple against marrying off children, and decades of exploitive corporate rule won't have inculcated one.

But while the sexual mores of modern day "developed countries" may hang on in Corporate Enclaves, there's no way that would extend to contract law, or proscribed substances. No corporate extraterritorial is going to invest time and money into not selling goods and services to potential customers of any particular age.

---

Long story short:

If you want to sleep with a 14 year old, do it in the Barrens where noone cares.

If you are a 14 year old and want to buy a bottle of vodka, do it in an Evo Arcology where noone cares.

If you want to rape a 14 year old, there's nowhere on Earth that's going to be particularly happy with you, so you'd better keep it quiet enough that noone finds out. Ever.

-Frank
Kyoto Kid
...whoah. Didn't expect the discussion would go this deep.

First off, Thanks for the responses

I was mainly looking for help on how the age issue related to things like getting into places for meets & buying certain gear, renting a doss etc. This question came to light because the rest of the group I'm involved with apparently sees character age as an issue where it wasn't before.

KK 4.1 (SR4) is 18. Her SR1 - SR3 counterpart started at 15 (basically she was a street kid turned adept). Before she never had trouble getting into meets as long as there were older runners with her. She just wouldn't be served any alcohol (which was fine by her considering her father had a severe drinking problem & she had no desire to follow his footsteps). Now I find out her new incarnation is often barred from meets in clubs & bars which, has caused some player-vs-player & character friction. I was hoping there would be some "official" word that I could use to try and defuse the situation other than redesigning the character.
FrankTrollman
In the corporate controlled future, why would any club voluntarily not sell entrance to anyone unlikely to cause trouble? That just doesn't make financial sense.

And if it doesn't make financial sense, Shadowrun corporations aren't going to do it. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Bar owners fought the age laws tooth and nail, now that they can write their own laws, why would they uphold them?

-Frank
hyzmarca
Specific age of consent is a social construct. One can see that simply by how it varies wildly cfrom one society to another. However, one thig that does not vary is puberty. No society has an age of consent that is likely to come before an individual reaches puberty. The traditional age of consent in English law was ten. Girls experience puberty between 9-12.

The age of consent has steadily increased in industrial societies in so small part due to the social effects of the indistrial revolution. The need for more education combined with more labor saving devices resulted in people spending more and more time in school. It began as an artifical social construct called 'childhood', which justified mandatory government provided schooling. As educational requirement increased newer age classess were invinted so that this mandatory schooling could be extended. Now, with college education being almost necessary for survival a 22 year old is considered a child in some respects.

This juvilialization of industrial societies contributes a great deal to the economy in the long term but, oddly, it goes against the biological realities of industrial citizens. Better enecomy leads to better nutrition. Better nutrition leads to earlier puberty. The mode age at which children begin puberty is slowly but steadily becomming lower, which some rather freekish extremes. Pubecent two-year-olds are rare put not unheard of. The youngest girl every to carry a child to term was five. Obviously, pregency at such a young age carries problems, not the least of which is size. A two-year-old smply isn't large enough to carry a child to term while a five-year-old can't possibly give birth. The latter problem can be solved through surgery which is common in industrial socities. The former cannot. For these reasons, among others, placing an age of consent strictly at puberty may not be a good idea. It doesn't change the fact that pubesent children are constantly being told to have sex by every hormone in their bodies and when law fights biology law usually loses.

The reality of indistrial and post-industrial society is that children who have sex at an early age are statistically less fit to be employees and thus contribute less to the economy. Both potential psycological effects combined with the burden of childrearing make it difficult for those who have sex at an early age, speficially girls, to contribute to the workforce. At the same time, medicine is making it easier to have sex with becomming pregnant. That just leaves that potential phycological complications which are as much a product of society as they are biological reality.

This leaves two potential solutions to sex among juvililes. 1, be open and permissive and hand out birthcontrol like it was candy or 2, be extremely anti-sex and discourage it as best as is possible. History shows that the latter is difficult but this doesn't stop some from trying. The former is far more reliable but it has its own problems, as well.

I can see the age of consent being lowered in the future, possibly as low as 12. With the anarchaic combonation of conservativism and government apathy it is a tossup. Conservatives, be they true to their moniker, would wnt to lower the age of consent or get rid of it all together. Small government and all. However, the conservative ranks tday are dominated by people who are anything but in some ways. They desire to enfoce their own sexual values against society at large. So, the actual age of consent could be very low or very high. It is simply a matter of flavor for your personal game world.
FrankTrollman
QUOTE
No society has an age of consent that is likely to come before an individual reaches puberty.


That's patently false.

ageofconsent.com clearly shows that Burkina Faso, Malta, México, the Netherlands, Paraguay, the Phillipines, and Zimbabwe all allow sex with 12 year olds (at least within the bonds of marriage, or with parental consent). This when in poorer areas of the world (such as Burkina Faso or Zimbabwe), the onset of puberty is often delayed to 14 years of age or older.

In the 19th century it was legal to marry children as young as 10 in the United States. Now that puberty is earlier (girls in the US have their first blood at age 8 with some regularity thanks to good nutrition and exposure to estrogen analogues in endemic pollutants), the age of consent is later.

I would say that after the "purity movements" of the arly 20th century it has become basically unthinkable in the US to seriously entertain the idea of having sex with 10 year olds whether they have regular periods or not. Scroll the clock back a hundred and fifty years, and the general thinking was that it was laudable to start children into a monogomous sexual relationship before conception was even possible to make extra certain that the next generation was within wedlock.

Age of Consent has nothing to do with biological imperatives and everything to do with assignment of resources and the structural importance of marriage in society. And in 2070, the corporate court doesn't give a rat's ass what symbolic attachments you do or do not have, so there's no economic impetus to even have an age of consent. The only reason there'd even be one anywhere is social inertia on the issue (which isn' that much, obviously, considerign how quickly a 10 year approval went to an 18 year minimum) or social pressure from countries that do not recognize the Corporate Court's extraterritoriality like Manchuria.

Since marriage does not have anything to do with divisions of property or inheritance, arbitrary restrictions just aren't going to persist.

-Frank
hobgoblin
when it comes to sex, things have allways been more about feelings then about logics. before WW1 paris had prostitution under legal control, regual checkups and police protection. then comes the war and the generals start to worry about the moral of the troops. presto, prostitution is baned...

if there is one thing thats permanent, its change...
this covers all areas, only the change can happen at diffrent speeds.

legal drinking age? i would say it varies wildely. some person selling moonshine (optionaly with syntetic flavor added) out of a old basement in the barrens would not care less as long as he gets his money. the expensive and currently hip place to be downtown would be careful about their rep. but if some big-shot from a A level or higher corp shows up with his kids and their "friends", who is going to refuse him?
September
Random observation; does an ork or troll, even one with a SIN and good standing, really stand a chance of living long enough to collect pension, social security, and the like?
FrankTrollman
QUOTE (September)
Random observation; does an ork or troll, even one with a SIN and good standing, really stand a chance of living long enough to collect pension, social security, and the like?

Since Methuselah Syndrome doesn't affect all orks, the answer is "yes". The chance is there.

-Frank
Brahm
I have to largely agree with FrankTrollman. Even in within first tier industrial countries age of consent drops quite low. Even in less populated areas areas of North America the defacto age lowers because either there aren't as many people of the similar age that aren't related. Coupling with a blood relative being a taboo that is much more respected because of well known, serious offspring conciquences. But even then in some very small, remote locations such as Newfoundland outport villages very difficult to avoid because of past relative mingling and very small populations.

Where people sit is usually in close proximity to where they stand. Laws imposed that do not fit with the practical needs and desires of a large portion of the population die a quick death. If not officially, then unoffically. The later being to the overall determent of the society. That was the biggest lesson of the US Prohibition, which was also one of the purity movements FrankTrollman is talking about.
hyzmarca
Serves me right for making such a blanket statement without including the correct caveats. It should read "No society that I am aware of has an age of consent that is come before it is possible for an individual to have reached puberty."

Drinking age is another matter. Some corps will keep it simply to keep their employees and customers happy. Joe Wageslave doesn't want his 10 year old daughter to come home high and drunk after a giant orgy in the backroom of a popular bar. However, the drinking age will almost certainly be lowered to 18 at the most. The only reason that the drinking age is 21 in the States is that some idiot thought that it would help prevent drunk driving. After that law was declared unconstitutional Congress decided that it wouldn't give any road construction funds to states that had a drinking age lower than 21. Personally, I would have written a law that took effect they day before the checks were sent out and sunsetted the day after, but most state legislatures are lazy.
At any rate, with the invention of autonav there is no reason for that. It won't reduce drunk driving because drunk driving isn't a problem. Your car will just take over for you.


Actually Brahm, scientific studies have shown otherwise. Being first cousins increases the chance of making a baby that has birth defects to a smaller degree than being a smoker does. If people who smoke are alow to get married then people who are related should be too, if all you're basing it on is genetics. It takes habitual milti-generational incest to really start piling on the genetic problems.


I can see there being a double standard in many corporate enclaves when it comes to age of consent. Citizens would have a realitivly high age of consent, on par with modren industrial nations while the age of consent for those without corporate SINs would effectivly be zero. I would imagine that some corporations send recruiters out into z-zones to pick up some potentially talented young prostitutes to cater to employees with unusual tastes. For such children it could either be a one and only chance at a great life or a horrific nightmare, depending on how the corporation played it. The former is far more likely than the latter, all things considered and I can see some parents happily handing their children over to such a life simply because it would be better than existance in a z-zone.
jervinator
Odd thought. I remember the Gnomes (Dwarf-variant common in parts of Europe) had a child-like stature/physique. If combined with the Human Looking edge....

How would this all affect a 25 year old runner than looked like they were 12?
Brahm
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 26 2006, 07:11 PM)
Actually Brahm, scientific studies have shown otherwise. Being first cousins increases the chance of making a baby that has birth defects to a smaller degree than being a smoker does.  If people who smoke are alow to get married then people who are related should be too, if all you're basing it on is genetics.  It takes habitual milti-generational incest to really start piling on the genetic problems.

You can, in theory, stop smoking during pregnacy. You also can start smoking after you get married. You can't stop being a cousin.

Further the first time cousins get jiggy the risk is low. But the risk goes up dramatically when it occurs repeatedly over generations as the genetic potential for problems become exposed with the narrrowing of the gene pool.

Of course it isn't a problem if there are no potential genetic problems in the gene pool to start with. But right now we aren't at the stage where we can filter all that out.
Space Ghost
i think the real problem, in regards to the original post, is that any place that a Johnson would want to meet shadowrunners in would probably be the type of place that doesn't want kids hanging around. The guy at the door can deny you entrance based on how you look or what you wear, so he can definetely keep the kiddies out regardless of legal age. As for selling things to kids, i think it's better for retail. A corporation will recognize that selling a bottle of vodka to kids = money. A bar owner will realize that letting kids come in and drink might mean that he brings all his friends. After all, kids don't want to hang out with a bunch of old guys, right? Now your bar becomes the place to be for all the 14 year old to get drunk. That can be profitable if the kids have a big allowance, but your older costomers (the ones who have jobs and can afford to really drink) will dissappear.

i believe that the places that would let kids in will cater to kids. If you see a 33 year old go in there, he's a creep, a drug dealer or someone's dad.
Brahm
QUOTE (Brahm @ Jan 26 2006, 07:24 PM)
Of course it isn't a problem if there are no potential genetic problems in the gene pool to start with.  But right now we aren't at the stage where we can filter all that out.

The corollary of this is that perhaps we will reach the stage where marrying that hot, hot cousin, because she looks so much like Mom, will be legal in our society much as it was in some that our society comes from. Such as England less than 200 years ago.

Interestingly people in the Baltics have long tracked several generations, going out to 7th cousin removed before you are allowed to marry. Much stricter than North American society.


EDIT I should add that a ban on cousin marriage is not universal in all jurisdictions in North America. Some US states allow first cousins, adopted cousins, and half cousins to marry. Some of those however require either proof that the couple is unable to have children or that they be of an older age than normally required for marriage.
Brahm
Question that just occured to me.


How can you have an age law for the SINless? They have, by definition, no legal identification for proof of age.
stevebugge
QUOTE (FrankTrollman)
In the corporate controlled future, why would any club voluntarily not sell entrance to anyone unlikely to cause trouble? That just doesn't make financial sense.

And if it doesn't make financial sense, Shadowrun corporations aren't going to do it. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Bar owners fought the age laws tooth and nail, now that they can write their own laws, why would they uphold them?

-Frank

In areas where the corporation is the law they have the ability to set these standards, no question. However outside their etxraterritorial enclaves the local goverment has this authority. And while the corps have a lot of influence, politicals won't due anything politically suicidal, like propose and push legislation that offends the sensibilities of the voting majority. The institurional inertia of the Political Process is immense, even law changes that make sense to everyone take a long time to actually happen. So for the City of Seattle it just doesn't seem likely that a city that has passed increasingly restrictive age laws in the name of protecting children (example in Seattle dance clubs can be open to either 20 and under or 21 and over, all ages clubs aren't legal) 65 years of increasing corporate influence isn't going to change this, especially if corporate extraterritoriality gives them a marketing advantage (like come party at the All Ages club in the Renraku Arcology Mall) in fact large corps may even push more restrictive laws outside their territory, to reduce the competition from smaller corps who don't have extraterritoriality.

Nanny State public health laws run amok in Seattle, it's part of the city culture along with out of control Political Correctness, a poltical culture that his held quite firmly by the cities elite, who while not as powerful as the megacorps are still politically powerful.
FrankTrollman
Interesting note on marrying cousins:

A friend of mine is fully intent on marrying his 1st cousin. All of our friends teased him about it of course, and many still feel that is breaking a taboo even after they've been engaged for some months. And we still tease him about incest and will probably continue to do so for years.

But... medically speaking there's nothing actually wrong with doing that. And when I talked to some of my friends in England about it, none of them even had a problem with it. A cousin is only 12.5% related to you, after all, and that's only barely noticably different from a random person you met on the street. Now, his children will be 15.625% related to their first cousins (and so on), so if cousin marrying became a habit, eventually we'd have to intervene.

Often you find more exotic exogany rules in places where people are more inherently related (like islands and valleys). A cynical evolutionary biologist might say that societies in such circumstances that didn't have exciting exogany rules simply don't exist any more - but I honestly believe that rules against incest snap up when people notice screwy results from incestuous pairings, and smaller (more related) societies are going to notice such results with more distant branches of the family tree than genetically diverse populations are.

-Frank
September
Now, if your cousin has Goblinized or SURGEd, would that change your response? Would it matter?
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Brahm)
Question that just occured to me.


How can you have an age law for the SINless?  They have, by definition, no legal identification for proof of age.

...good point.

Having a fake SIN listing the character's age at 22 - 23 for example should work for runner hangouts other than those (like maybe Matchsticks) which have a rep to protect. Even then, having that Con (Fast Talk) & a reasonable Etiquette skill doesn't hurt (KK does have both) Furthermore if the character is able to successfully spoof his or her way in to the same joint several times, ID checks may be waved since the character is becoming a regular patron (provided someone else doesn't blow their cover).

Of course having that Bartender/Club Owner/Bouncer contact is also very useful. Just gotta convince the Johnson you have a safer place to meet.
hyzmarca
It is interesting that although incest is an almost universal taboo it is common in mythology for gods to engage in incest themselves. Zeus married his sister. Adam and Eve's kids got it on with each other and Adam was Eve's biological father to begin with Bramha married his daughter. Ra married his daughter. Jesus, as both the son of God and God incarnate commited the penultimate act of incest by being his own father (The ultimate act of incest, being both one's own father and mother, has thus far only been accomplished in a Robert Heinlein novel).

Thus, one must ask, if gods can do it why can't people? In some ways incest in an act of arrogance that attempts to place oneself on equal footing with the gods. It is more an afront to social order than to a biological imperative, something one could only get away with if one were a divine god-king or queen.

Personally, I would think that exogany rules are tied to economics as much as to biologoly and society. Those marriage between distinct groups increases resource pools giving both groups better odds of long term survival.
Cold-Dragon
I suspect incest became taboo more along the time that they finally figured out how many mutations you got from it if you were persistant. Then there's the fact that even if you stopped, your gene pool 'corrupts' for a few more generations due to the inbreeding already related to you...


or something like that. I'm not a geneologist, lol. THe practical aspects of the issues is what I use to say "mmmm, Sorry Mom, you're just not my type."

It's mainly because you keep sorting out the various genes in the gene pool that the subtle incest you would commit with any person not 'related' to you that it doesn't matter - as long as you quit swapping the same things over and over again, mutations stay at a relative low.

...and again, I'm not a geneologist, so I may have just said complete and utter balogna. nyahnyah.gif

Not every day you talk about incest on a game board though - it was fun!
Brahm
Adam, Eve, and their children, along with Noah's family, were prisoners of their situation of not having any other dance partner options.

Jesus and the Holy Trinity I think can be explained as more a metaphorical expression, or at least not falling into the same catagory as mortal labels. Also immaculate conception would seem to niftily skirt around the issue of incest. biggrin.gif

The Greek gods on the other hand lived in a manner that would put the blush in any after primetime hours soap opera. Likewise incest occurs in other mythos.

The real people of the Egyptian ruling class dabbled heavily in close relative marriage. At least the females did. There is some question about how prevalent it was with the males. They were not the only ruling class in history to do so.


Screening Out The Problems

When I said we aren't at the stage of filtering out potential genetic problems, I left out some exceptions. There is a narrowed gene pool with specific problems, and arguably benefits as well which can happen. They are beginning to address some of the problems with DNA assisted family planning.
hyzmarca
Incest doesn't cause mutations; ionizing radiation does. Mutations are normal, natural, good and quite impossible to avoid since ionizing radiation is literally everywhere all the time.

It isn't that incest corrupts the genepool it is that incest increases the probability of receiving two matching recessive genes. Oftentimes, these recessive genes are harmful when expressed.

For example, red hair is a recessive trait. One of my uncles had red hair so there is a chance that I have one copy of the gene, although not entirely certain. Assuming that I do, if I make a baby a women who also has a copy of the gene there is a 25% chance that the baby will have two copies of the gene and thus will express red hair. If I mate with a woman who has red hair then there is a 75% chance that the child will have red hair. If I myself had red hair and the woman also did then there is a 100% chance that the child would have red hair. However, If I don't have the gene then there is a 0% chance that the child will have red hair.

If I married a sister then the probability that she has the red hair gene is as good as mine. If she does and our children marry the chances that they would both have a copy of the red hair gene is even greater.

Let us assume for the sake of simplicity that we have 4 children who are hermaphrodites. One has red hair, two have the gene, one does not.
The probability that they will have children who express red hair is (1/3)(3/4) + (1/6)(1/4) + (3/6)0 or 7/24, slightly more than a quarter. The chance of a child having the gene is (1/2)1 + (1/6)(1/2) + (1/3)(1/4) or 2/3, more than half.

Eventually, every person in the family will have red hair, given enough time.

Consider that instead of red hair the gene in question is for tay sachs. Now, tay sachs wouldn't have the same probability model since the people who express it won't live long enough to reproduce. Still, it has a pretty good probability model.

If two people have one copy of the gene then the chances of passing one copy on to a child are 50% while the chances of passing two on are 25%. A child with two copies will die.

Let us assume for the sake of simplicity that we have 4 children who are hermaphrodites. Two have a copy of the gene, one doesn't, and one is dead.

Out of three possible incestuous combinations that are two that have a 25% chance of passing on the gene and one that has a 50% chance. Therefore, the chances of these children passing on the gene are in total (1/2)(1/3) + (2/3)(1/4) or 1/3 while the chances of passing on two copies are (1/4)(1/3) + 0 or 1/12.

Now, let us assume an incestuous orgy in which they have three children. Zero express tay sachs and one has a copy of the gene. The chances that they will pass on two copies through incest are zero.


These two separate probability models show the dangers and the benefits of incest. With habitual incest genetic traits that kill in childhood die off quite quickly according to the numbers. However, those recessive traits that do not effect fertility eventually reach complete saturation. This is an incomplete model, of course. It doesn't take into account many factors but the basic premise is there.

Catastrophic genetic diseases from multigenerational incest are unlikely. However, minor defects and quirks will add up over time.


Edit: Religious nitpick here, Jesus was not an immacuate conception. Mary was. Every human being inherited the Original Sin from Adam and Eve. However, when Mary's parents were getting it on God was there and who told heaven's estate lawyer to jip her out of her share. Thus, Mary was the only mortal human who is not a sinner and the only mortal human who doesn't need to believe in Jesus to get into heaven.

Jesus was the virgin birth, meaning that Mary never had intercourse. This, of course, is not that spectacular today. All you need to achieve a virgin birth is a turkey baster.

And yes, Egyption royalty didpractice incest but they were living gods.
Crusher Bob
For example, note the common occurance of hemophilia among many of the royal families of Europe.
Ophis
Look its simple, if you are either a God or Royalty incest is fine, possibely even mandatory.
Just look at the british royal family for an idea of what happens over time...

Actually it mostly seems to badly affect the men, who tend towards idiocy, the women seem fine. Strange.
Taki
QUOTE (Brahm)
Question that just occured to me.


How can you have an age law for the SINless? They have, by definition, no legal identification for proof of age.

Depending on the gravity of the crime, the amount of biological information entered in the SIN, will be either very small (picture, voice recording, fingerprint and so on), or a lot bigger with DNA, tooth print, and acurate aging.

Finding the age (accuracy roughly one year) of someone below 20 is easy just by watching his bones density and calcification (using a scanner for exemple). At a (small) cost.
ThatSzechuan
QUOTE (Crusher Bob)
For example, note the common occurance of hemophilia among many of the royal families of Europe.

In 12th grade Biology I traced back the big ears of the british royal family to something like 1000AD.
Kremlin KOA
QUOTE (Space Ghost)
i think the real problem, in regards to the original post, is that any place that a Johnson would want to meet shadowrunners in would probably be the type of place that doesn't want kids hanging around. The guy at the door can deny you entrance based on how you look or what you wear, so he can definetely keep the kiddies out regardless of legal age. As for selling things to kids, i think it's better for retail. A corporation will recognize that selling a bottle of vodka to kids = money. A bar owner will realize that letting kids come in and drink might mean that he brings all his friends. After all, kids don't want to hang out with a bunch of old guys, right? Now your bar becomes the place to be for all the 14 year old to get drunk. That can be profitable if the kids have a big allowance, but your older costomers (the ones who have jobs and can afford to really drink) will dissappear.

i believe that the places that would let kids in will cater to kids. If you see a 33 year old go in there, he's a creep, a drug dealer or someone's dad.

You know, in Perth there is a Nightclub that is Infamous for letting 13 year old girls in

It gets shut down every fe wmonths by the cops, the manager loses his licence, and someone else gets the licence and rents out the property for a club with a new name... but the place is always the same

funny you get a lot of adult men there, and many adult women... it is very financially successful

it wouldn't be the ame for all clubs, but there would be a few like that. they make money from catering to the Pedo community
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Ophis @ Jan 27 2006, 05:26 AM)
Look its simple, if you are either a God or Royalty incest is fine, possibely even mandatory.
Just look at the british royal family for an idea of what happens over time...

Actually it mostly seems to badly affect the men, who tend towards idiocy, the women seem fine. Strange.

Not really strange. Certain traits can be linked to the Y chromosome, which women do not have.
Ophis
I was thinking on that line my self, but idiocy seems to me a more than singel gene problem, so I suspect it has to do with more than one chromosone. Then again since anne is the only one of the royal I have time for mayb there is something in it.
Brahm
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Upbringing in the environment of distortion, passed on from generations, of the family's position in society certainly is at play in the British Royal family.

As an infant and toddler Charles had so little contact that he barely knew his mother, and the old bat gave similarily cold instructions for raising him. As much as an airhead as Diana was, at least she was a mother and one that imparted some sense of humility, compasion, and humanity to temper that infamous stiff upper lip mentality.
Kyoto Kid
Yoikes...!

How a simple question ends up as a debate on sexual mores and heredity.

As Mr. Spock would say...

"Fascinating"
Space Ghost
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

You know, in Perth there is a Nightclub that is Infamous for letting 13 year old girls in

It gets shut down every fe wmonths by the cops, the manager loses his licence, and someone else gets the licence and rents out the property for a club with a new name... but the place is always the same

funny you get a lot of adult men there, and many adult women... it is very financially successful

it wouldn't be the ame for all clubs, but there would be a few like that. they make money from catering to the Pedo community

But would a Johnson want to do the deal at a place like that?
stevebugge
QUOTE (Kremlin KOA)

You know, in Perth there is a Nightclub that is Infamous for letting 13 year old girls in

It gets shut down every fe wmonths by the cops, the manager loses his licence, and someone else gets the licence and rents out the property for a club with a new name... but the place is always the same

funny you get a lot of adult men there, and many adult women... it is very financially successful

it wouldn't be the ame for all clubs, but there would be a few like that. they make money from catering to the Pedo community


But would a Johnson want to do the deal at a place like that?

It would certainly make me question who the Johnson was and what they were up to. Johnsons tend to try to set up meets in friendly locations that they are comfortable in, if this fit their criteria......
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Kyoto Kid)
Yoikes...!

How a simple question ends up as a debate on sexual mores and heredity.

As Mr. Spock would say...

"Fascinating"

On the internet, any discussion about age has to turn toward age of consent. It is in an international treaty somewhere.

stevebugge, johnsons will choose locations for anonymity and discression most of all. Such a club would probably give it.

It is far better for the club regulars to look at him and think "that guy is here to pick up teenagers again" than it is for club regulars to look at him and think "Bill Stevens is meeting with Shadowrunners again".
Space Ghost
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 27 2006, 03:42 PM)
It is far better for the club regulars to look at him and think "that guy is here to pick up teenagers again" than it is for club regulars to look at him and think "Bill Stevens is meeting with Shadowrunners again".

Except he'll be the only guy in the place who's surrounded by (presumably adult) shadowrunners instead of teenage girls. Not to mention any thugs he brings with him for protection.

Now, if the shadowrunners he was hiring were teenage girls to begin with, then that would be inconspicuous.
stevebugge
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
stevebugge, johnsons will choose locations for anonymity and discression most of all. Such a club would probably give it.

True of a high paid corp Johnson who does it as a profession, but not of all Johnsons. There are a lot of times where you will be dealing with someone who is not a full-time contractor of deniable assets, and where those people choose to meet will tell you something about the employer.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Space Ghost)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 27 2006, 03:42 PM)
It is far better for the club regulars to look at him and think "that guy is here to pick up teenagers again" than it is for club regulars to look at him and think "Bill Stevens is meeting with Shadowrunners again".

Except he'll be the only guy in the place who's surrounded by (presumably adult) shadowrunners instead of teenage girls. Not to mention any thugs he brings with him for protection.

Now, if the shadowrunners he was hiring were teenage girls to begin with, then that would be inconspicuous.

Well yes, but if he offers random teenagers 50 nuyen to orally pleasure his "friends" and they all take someone into the backroom after the meeting it will be much less conspicuous. Mixing business with pleasure is bad but they don't have to enjoy it if it is just a cover.
nick012000
QUOTE (hyzmarca)
QUOTE (Space Ghost @ Jan 27 2006, 06:28 PM)
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Jan 27 2006, 03:42 PM)
It is far better for the club regulars to look at him and think "that guy is here to pick up teenagers again" than it is for club regulars to look at him and think "Bill Stevens is meeting with Shadowrunners again".

Except he'll be the only guy in the place who's surrounded by (presumably adult) shadowrunners instead of teenage girls. Not to mention any thugs he brings with him for protection.

Now, if the shadowrunners he was hiring were teenage girls to begin with, then that would be inconspicuous.

Well yes, but if he offers random teenagers 50 nuyen to orally pleasure his "friends" and they all take someone into the backroom after the meeting it will be much less conspicuous. Mixing business with pleasure is bad but they don't have to enjoy it if it is just a cover.

Well, this is one occasion where the otaku fits right in socially...
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