 Err...do Orcs have a point, mechanics-wise? |
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 Sep 7 2005, 06:42 AM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083  |
20 points seems a bit expensive for low-light vision and a starting Body of 3. Now I only got to browse the rules at my friend's house for a few minutes, so I could definitely be missing something here, which is why I'm asking. Do Orcs have any other plus-sides? Humans get +1 edge for zero points....seems like a better deal.
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Sep 7 2005, 06:49 AM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 778 Joined: 6-April 05 Member No.: 7,298 |
Orks have +3 body, +2 strength, -1 charisma, -1 logic. Since the charisma and logic still start at 1 (the max just lowers by one), it's not a horrible deal.
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Sep 7 2005, 06:51 AM
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#3
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Ack, just looked at orks, actuallly a pretty good deal. 3 additional starting body and 2 additional starting strength for one less logic and one less charisma. That works out to 30BP of net stat points for a 20BP cost, plus low-light vision for free. Not bad at all. Admittedly, Human is great, though. I personally perfer being human, so that works out pretty well for me. Though, I might see what happens when I re-build my first character as an ork...
OSUMacbeth |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:52 AM
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#4
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
If you don't plan on maxing logic or charisma, orcs then earn you points. Because of the str and body bonuses are more than the 20 points you spent to become an orc.
Plus, you get to be green :rotfl: So far my opinion is that trolls get the shaft, elves.. are just evil as always. But dwarves and orcs and humans all have their good aspects, and are reasonably costed. Just keep an eye on what your trying to make, the orc face can be made, but you will never be as good as the elf. Which is something I think we are going to hear for a while.... never as good as the elf. |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:57 AM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Do metas still get a karma (or in this case edge)/exp penalty like in SR3? Or has that changed too?
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Sep 7 2005, 06:58 AM
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#6
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Yes, yes, elves are good. Just keep in mind that a +1 agility, while it will affect many tests, will not affect them very much. An additional success once out of every three tests, per skill. And of the 20 or so skills based on agility, how many do you really need on one character? Don't blame the poor elves; blame the devs for making twenty-some odd skills rely on AGI. :dead:
OSUMacbeth |
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 Sep 7 2005, 06:59 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 2-September 05 From: Canada Member No.: 7,672 |
Actually, Orks are among the most cost effective metatypes to take in chargen.
Not only do they get low-light vision, but they get +3 to Body (So a 4 starting Body, not 3) and +2 to Strength (3 starting). They also take a -1 to Charisma and Logic, though this just deducts from the max...both these attributes still start at 1. While Strength isn't all it used to be in previous editions, Body should not be underestimated for keeping you alive. Also, it should be noted that Orks still have a 6 max rating (baring exceptional quality) to two of the more important attributes for combat...Agility and Reaction. Both dwarves and trolls take a hit to these. Also, you can't beat that the Ork is the cheapest metatype at 20 points. And damn, you get to be a tusker? What else could you want? Orxploitation Fo'eva! -Ravennus Edit- Bah, other fine dumpshockers beat me to the punch! |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:59 AM
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#8
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
They never got a "Karma Penalty", in terms of having less "XP" or "Good Karma". They just gained Karma Pool at a slower rate (but started with 2 points of Karma Pool) under default rules. In SR4, Humans get an extra point of Edge (and also have a higher racial Max for Edge), but all races can improve Edge at the same "rate" (which is increased just like any other Attribute). |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:00 AM
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#9
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Target Group: Members Posts: 98 Joined: 26-July 05 Member No.: 7,517 |
Because there is no karma pool, metas don't take a penalty to it. However, the old karma pool is now the edge attribute. Metas don't take a penalty, but humans get a racial +1 min/max. I very much like that humans get a bonus now, and a very good one.
OSUMacbeth |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:06 AM
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#10
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Orks are the master race. You can't afford to maximize your Logic or Charisma as almost any character archetype. The attribute caps are at an average stat value of 3.5 - so Orks paying a premium to take Logic and Charisma past 4 scarcely ever comes up.
So for 20 build points, an Edge, and the "drawback" that Logic and Charisma have their maximums dropped from one number you can't afford to another number that you also can't afford: you get Low Light Vision, and 50 points worth of free attributes. OK, maybe that wasn't said loudly enough: You MAKE 20 character points just by writing "Ork" on your character sheet! Even if you don't even intend to be a strength or body focused character, even if you plan to be a multi-purpose hacker/face, the act of writing "Ork" on your character sheet takes actual character points and hands them to you. It effectively raises the attribute expenditure caps to 250, and the first 50 points are free. And it only costs 30 points that don't apply to the cap. Being an Ork is about space accountants giving you build points in exchange for you having bigger teeth and looking that much more awesome. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:16 AM
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#11
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Target Group: Members Posts: 85 Joined: 26-May 02 Member No.: 2,769 |
That 1 die, applies to virtually ALL real world tests. So in a single case, yes 1 die means nothing. But over a gaming session, when 50 tests are called for and 30 of them use agility as the base stat... well that 1 agil, just bought you 10 more hits. Which is more than worth it. And we might not have all 20 some agil based skills, but there is not a shadowrunner without at least 1-2, and many runners will have the majority of their skills based on agility. Just like muscle toner rating 4 is now 10 times more broken than 3rd edition enhanced articulation, which was just so wrong. *bonk dev's on the head* and i like blaming the leaf eaters, its fun :) |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:43 AM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
Ah, okay. Like I said, I hadn't read the book that extensively (still waiting for the thing to show up at my game store), so I missed the extra strength, and I honestly didn't know how the stat negatives worked in this game. But of course, there is the drawback of the Ork's short lifespan, and (assumed) rapid aging. By the time you're 25, you're already going bald. :D |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:47 AM
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#13
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
That is one way to to interpret the somewhat lower Orc life expectancy data. |
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Sep 7 2005, 07:51 AM
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#14
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,241 Joined: 10-August 02 Member No.: 3,083 |
See, I had originally assumed that the life expectancy thing was just due to the poverty and violence that Orks were exposed to, but I remember hearing on this forum years ago that there was a novel that established that they age at a hyper rate. Not sure if that is canon, though.
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Sep 7 2005, 08:32 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 153 Joined: 7-November 04 Member No.: 6,811 |
Think it was Nosferatu (first SR novel I read, oddly enough) that showed a hyper-aged ork.
[ Spoiler ]
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Sep 7 2005, 08:34 AM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
I believe that particular item discussed later on in that thread i linked. |
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Sep 7 2005, 08:37 AM
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#17
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Erm, depending on your genes, you may be going bald at 25 anyway, Ork or not. Male Pattern Baldness does affect some people as early as their 20s. I've known a couple of folks who already lost most of their hair on top, and they weren't even out of undergrad yet. :) |
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Sep 7 2005, 08:41 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 129 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 400 |
Another example of orks getting a leg up from SR3 is that they can play a spellcaster with relative ease. Since they only take a hit on logic, not intuition, playing a shaman is pretty viable. Much better than the -Int/Cha that kept them down in the spellcasting division. Not much cause to be a hermetic mage, but that's alright in my book.
And the introduction of Intuition as a stat makes me feel that orks aren't quite as dim as the used to be. Less booksmart, yes, but not idiotic or oblivious. Same with trolls, really. A -1 to both Logic and Intuition isn't quite as limiting as the old -2 to Int. |
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Sep 7 2005, 08:48 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Er, Shaman use Cha to resist drain. Not Int. Although there is the option of custom Traditions that use Intuition to resist drain, if it'll fly with the GM.
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Sep 7 2005, 08:51 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
And orks have no "hit" on charisma. Just the maximum attribute value is reduced. |
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Sep 7 2005, 08:57 AM
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#21
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well ya, none of them have a hit per-say in SR4. But it does make it a bit more costly if you are going to raise it to 5, and you are always one die short at your maximum. |
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Sep 7 2005, 09:15 AM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 52 Joined: 16-August 05 From: Stuttgart, Germany Member No.: 7,559 |
That cost increase is only at CharGen, the text about raising attributes (page 264) doesn't state any additional increase at the cap. Yes your a die shy, but you could still get an Exceptional Attribute with the saved points from Body / Strength :-) |
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Sep 7 2005, 09:58 AM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,718 Joined: 14-September 02 Member No.: 3,263 |
Well, ya. That was implied. You want to have a Sample Character gimp with Cha(4), or do you want a REAL shaman? 8)
That puppy would be headed straight over to Will in my way of thinking. [EDIT: If not bumping up the prime drain stat already.] Ok, so everyone could use a little more Body. But WTF does this shaman want with Str? REAL shamans don't worry about how much they can benchpress. ;) |
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Sep 7 2005, 09:58 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Never Trust An Elf* (by Bob Charette, one of the original SR designers!) had the protagonist meet his grandfather and his mother, all three of them orks. The grandfather was in his sixties - but as explained he was originally a human who goblinized into an ork resulting in normal human life expectancy and aging. His daughter (Kham's mother) on the other hand was born an ork - senile and seemingly ages old at in fact not even forty years... And one of the sourcebooks (maybe "Year of the Comet") had an ork comment along the lines of "by the age we are allowed to drink alcohol we are almost dead". The fire that burns twice as hot only burns half as long. I've always belonged to the "low life expectancy due to rapid aging" faction. There are numerous references to orks reaching physical maturity at an age where other metahumans hit puberty. From this perspective their high reproduction rate makes sense, too. * The same book also gave comments about elves and dwarfs: Elves mature like humans at first but somewhen in their 20s seemingly stop to age. Dwarfs look old at a quite young age but then stay that way until their death. Can anybody who knows Earthdawn tell us how those things are there? |
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Sep 7 2005, 10:06 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 934 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Earth - Europe - AGS - Norddeutscher Bund - Hannover Member No.: 7,624 |
The same. But I don't think dwarves really look old early. Many orks in ED live after a "live fast die young" codex. They try to get everything possible out of their limited lifespan. Possibly that explains their fondness for hurlg... :grinbig: |
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