20 points seems a bit expensive for low-light vision and a starting Body of 3. Now I only got to browse the rules at my friend's house for a few minutes, so I could definitely be missing something here, which is why I'm asking. Do Orcs have any other plus-sides? Humans get +1 edge for zero points....seems like a better deal.

Orks have +3 body, +2 strength, -1 charisma, -1 logic. Since the charisma and logic still start at 1 (the max just lowers by one), it's not a horrible deal.

Ack, just looked at orks, actuallly a pretty good deal. 3 additional starting body and 2 additional starting strength for one less logic and one less charisma. That works out to 30BP of net stat points for a 20BP cost, plus low-light vision for free. Not bad at all. Admittedly, Human is great, though. I personally perfer being human, so that works out pretty well for me. Though, I might see what happens when I re-build my first character as an ork...

OSUMacbeth

If you don't plan on maxing logic or charisma, orcs then earn you points. Because of the str and body bonuses are more than the 20 points you spent to become an orc.

Plus, you get to be green

So far my opinion is that trolls get the shaft, elves.. are just evil as always. But dwarves and orcs and humans all have their good aspects, and are reasonably costed. Just keep an eye on what your trying to make, the orc face can be made, but you will never be as good as the elf. Which is something I think we are going to hear for a while.... never as good as the elf.

Do metas still get a karma (or in this case edge)/exp penalty like in SR3? Or has that changed too?

Yes, yes, elves are good. Just keep in mind that a +1 agility, while it will affect many tests, will not affect them very much. An additional success once out of every three tests, per skill. And of the 20 or so skills based on agility, how many do you really need on one character? Don't blame the poor elves; blame the devs for making twenty-some odd skills rely on AGI.

OSUMacbeth

Actually, Orks are among the most cost effective metatypes to take in chargen.

Not only do they get low-light vision, but they get +3 to Body (So a 4 starting Body, not 3) and +2 to Strength (3 starting). They also take a -1 to Charisma and Logic, though this just deducts from the max...both these attributes still start at 1.

While Strength isn't all it used to be in previous editions, Body should not be underestimated for keeping you alive. Also, it should be noted that Orks still have a 6 max rating (baring exceptional quality) to two of the more important attributes for combat...Agility and Reaction. Both dwarves and trolls take a hit to these.

Also, you can't beat that the Ork is the cheapest metatype at 20 points.

And damn, you get to be a tusker? What else could you want? Orxploitation Fo'eva!

-Ravennus

Edit- Bah, other fine dumpshockers beat me to the punch!

Because there is no karma pool, metas don't take a penalty to it. However, the old karma pool is now the edge attribute. Metas don't take a penalty, but humans get a racial +1 min/max. I very much like that humans get a bonus now, and a very good one.

OSUMacbeth

Orks are the master race. You can't afford to maximize your Logic or Charisma as almost any character archetype. The attribute caps are at an average stat value of 3.5 - so Orks paying a premium to take Logic and Charisma past 4 scarcely ever comes up.

So for 20 build points, an Edge, and the "drawback" that Logic and Charisma have their maximums dropped from one number you can't afford to another number that you also can't afford: you get Low Light Vision, and 50 points worth of free attributes.

OK, maybe that wasn't said loudly enough: You MAKE 20 character points just by writing "Ork" on your character sheet!

Even if you don't even intend to be a strength or body focused character, even if you plan to be a multi-purpose hacker/face, the act of writing "Ork" on your character sheet takes actual character points and hands them to you. It effectively raises the attribute expenditure caps to 250, and the first 50 points are free. And it only costs 30 points that don't apply to the cap.

Being an Ork is about space accountants giving you build points in exchange for you having bigger teeth and looking that much more awesome.

-Frank

See, I had originally assumed that the life expectancy thing was just due to the poverty and violence that Orks were exposed to, but I remember hearing on this forum years ago that there was a novel that established that they age at a hyper rate. Not sure if that is canon, though.

Think it was Nosferatu (first SR novel I read, oddly enough) that showed a hyper-aged ork.

Another example of orks getting a leg up from SR3 is that they can play a spellcaster with relative ease. Since they only take a hit on logic, not intuition, playing a shaman is pretty viable. Much better than the -Int/Cha that kept them down in the spellcasting division. Not much cause to be a hermetic mage, but that's alright in my book.

And the introduction of Intuition as a stat makes me feel that orks aren't quite as dim as the used to be. Less booksmart, yes, but not idiotic or oblivious. Same with trolls, really. A -1 to both Logic and Intuition isn't quite as limiting as the old -2 to Int.

Er, Shaman use Cha to resist drain. Not Int. Although there is the option of custom Traditions that use Intuition to resist drain, if it'll fly with the GM.

Very much is written about the orkish ways, as they tend to "embrace life to the fullest" (as they dont have much time to do so).

And they surely give short fuse a fully new meaning...

Edit: Hm, I guess I should type quicker :-/

I hope your gahad is not triggered by that...don't try anything stupid or I'll give you buunda.... ^^

I remember it saying that Kham's father didn't die young - most likely from being goblinized. I do not, however, remember the book making any such claim for the entire ork race. Is it possible that your blame of SR4 might be jumping the gun, a bit?

OSUMacbeth

Well in this case I am glad I am using a printed version, as my black marker is just an inch away

You can get a statline that looks like:

BOD 4
AGL 3
REA 5
STR 3
CHA 4
INT 5
LOG 4
WIL 5

for 220 points, including the cost of being an ork. You can trade off a few points for AGL 5 if you want it.


The troll statline of:

BOD 5
AGL 4
REA 5
STR 5
CHA 3
INT 4
LOG 4
WIL 5

For 230 points (including the cost of being a troll) is not too shabby either. And you can get another point of body or strength if you really want one.

Since many people seem to have overlooked it in the other thread:

Ork Rapid Aging is something that happens to many Orks (goblinized or not), and as of 2065 it was pathologized and described - and people were working on a cure. In 2050 it was called "sometimes Orks just fall over dead from old age for no damned reason", and in 2065 it was called "Methuselah Syndrome" and had specific described symptoms. Advances in medicine are fighting Methuselah Syndrome, and many more (especially rich) Orks are going to live to a full human age.

This is the best of both worlds from a storytelling standpoint, and fits the available backstory flawlessly. In the case of the Ork family in the underground, the family had some members who had Methuselah Syndrome and some who did not - and lacking any access to cutting edge medical research they came up with a reasonable hypothesis as to why it had happened in that pattern and were wrong. Remember, these guys aren't doctors, they just have a relatively small sample size and are straight up guessing.

From a storytelling standpoint, if you want a "live-fast, die young" character as a PC or NPC, have them get a gray hair and a Methuselah Diagnosis. If you want an Orkish character who lives to a ripe old age far past the confines of the game - just have them be one of the guys who got passed over. The late SR3 resolution to the Ork lifespan debate essentially allows any player or game master to use the best aspects of both long and short Orkish lifespans in the story - and SR4 has embraced that whole heartedly.

If you don't want your Orkish character to die young, just don't have them die young. If you want them to die young, they have a perfect built-in excuse for borrowed time.

-Frank

Note that there is only one reference to Methuselah syndrome (with no reference to what kind of disease it is other than "genetic", whether it is dominant/recessive, multifactorial, or metagene, no description of the constellation that makes up the syndrome, and how one would test for it) (Shadows of Asia, p133):

AIDS was also called GRID at one point. Gay Related Immune Deficancy.

Bet that one isn´t in the school books.

Yeah, the association with homosexual males actually set-back AIDS research by a good year or so, as med experts pursued that particular red herring. We're all only human, and sometimes we jump to the wrong conclusions. To put it another way, while doctors were busy quarantining homosexual male patients, AIDS was running rampant in other populations (heterosexual, hemophiliacs, etc.). This is in addition to the inter-lab bickering and competition, and that whole HTLV-3 thing that turned out to be a bust.

the idea of there being a "cure" for rapid ork aging is FANTASTIC. What a perfect holy grail. Imagine what an ork would do for the promise of a "normal" lifespan.

Calling it Methuselah Syndrome seems a bit cruel and ironic to me.

Don´t know why that is and don´t care to look it up. Anybody care to explain?

That is certainly a bit cruel, but not as ironic as Meth syndrome.

Rabies causes a great difficulty in swallowing, and the actual death is usually caused by dehydration. Early medicine associated the patient's constant distress and "refusal" to drink as being adversarial to water.

So the terminology was "hydrophobia" - fear of water. For people who were dying of thirst from swelling and loss of muscular control.

That's irony.

-Frank

That explanation does point to the irony of it. Conspicuously