movement and shooting Options

[grendel]

It depends on whether you are walking or running and what you're movement modifier is. For a human, you can walk (quickness)meters per combat turn or run (quickness x 3) meters per combat turn. That movement is broken down by the number of initiative passes per turn.

1 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness) meters or run (quickness x 3) meters
2 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness/2) meters per pass or run (quickness x 3 / 2) meters per pass
3 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness/3) meters per pass or run (quickness) meters per pass

Note that movement is broken down by the total number of initiative passes in the turn, and not the number of passes that the moving character can act in. So if you have a character with an 8 initiative moving in a 3 initiative pass turn, that character will move 1/3rd of his total possible movement (walking or running) each pass.

If a character does not start moving until the last pass of the combat turn, s/he can only move the appropriate increment of his/her total movement. That is, if a character with three total initiative passes in the turn decided to run in the third pass of the turn, s/he would only be able to move (quickness) meters.

Edited for clarity.

[hahnsoo]

Erm, you mean initiative passes instead of combat phases, right?

[James McMurray]

grendel: that doesn't tell how to determine where someone is on a given combat phase. What if my movement involves running out from behind a piece of cover into the open, back behind another piece of cover, back out into the open, then behind a final piece of cover. During what phase am I behind the middle piece of cover.

Reading that last bit confused even me, so I'll try to explain a little better.

Joe Schmoe, average runner, has a quickness of 3 and a running modifier of 3. He starts the turn behind a shed, with a big troll samurai ready to take his head off.

This combat turn has only one combat phase. At the start of the phase Joe starts running. His path takes him out from behind the shed into the open, themn behind a second shed. He keeps going, back into the open, and finally finishes behind a third shed.

On what initiative passes is Joe out in the open, and on what intiative passes is he behind a shed?

[mfb]

unless you're using detailed maps and whatnot, it doesn't matter. for the purposes of the game mechanics, you occupy all points between your starting position and your ending position during the time you're moving. there's no official game mechanic for breaking up movement by phase, though i suppose you could divide the distance being travelled by the number of phases to figure out movement per phase. if you don't want to get that detailed, then you just determine that running behind sheds gives you an average +4 cover (with an additional, what, +2 for target running?).

[James McMurray]

Except that it does matter. If the enemy doesn't go until several passes later, he may be able to delay from his action to the time when the character comes out from behind the second piece of cover. For example:

Phase 1 (init 8): Joe heads out into the open
Phase 2 (init 7): Joe is in the open
Phase 3 (init 5): Joe is behind cover #2
Phase 4 (init 4): Enemy gunner delays, hoping to get a shot at Joe
Phase 5 (init 3): Jimmy, Joe's buddy, kills the enemy gunner
Phase 6 (init 2): Jimmy is out of cover again
Phase 7 (init 1): Jimmy is back behind cover.

Depending on which phases Jimmy is behind cover, the enemy may never be able to take a shot at Joe before being gunned down.

And for the record: we do use a battlemat.

[SuperSpy]

It may just be because I come from a Battletech background, but I've always figured that attacks are resolved with characters at the end point of their declared movement. Thus, in your scenario, Joe would be behind shed 3 when anyone shoots.

[mfb]

*shrug* the base rules aren't really made for using a battlemat. if you use one, you've pretty much got to write your own rules when discrepancies like that come up.

[TeOdio]

In larger battles where it helps clarify things like this, I like using a battlemat myself. Here's how we break it down.
Runner 1 gets a 15 on his initiative. Has a quickness of 5.
Runner 2 gets a 9 on her initiative, has a quickness of 4.
Goons 1 and 2 both go on 8, and have a quickness of 3.
At the start of the round (after the surprise round), goon 1 and 2 are taking partial cover from a crate so that they can fire at the Runners.
Runner 1 is 4 meters from a crate from which he can take cover.
Runner 2 is already fully behind a crate.
The highest number of passes is 2 (runner 1 has 2 actions)
We then divide up the movement rates a character can move in a pass by 2.

On 15, Runner 1 decides to bolt for the crate and take full cover. Since his quickness is a 5, and running is a x3 (he's no Dwarf), his max for the TURN/ROUND would be 15 meters. We divide that by 2 (the number of passes) and get 7.5. Since he is only 4 meters away, he'll reach the crate by the end of his phase. He takes a pot shot at Goon 1 and misses because a. he is running, and b. Goon 1 has partial cover.

On 9, Runner 2 decides to move a meter towards partial cover and fire a gun and then walk back behinds full cover. She can do this because of her quickenss of 4 (divided by 2 ) is 2 meters she can move in this phase. At the end of the phase she will be back behind full cover. She fires and barely hits due to walking and the partial cover of the Goon.

On 8, Goon 1 Takes a shot at Runner 1 (adding in the modifier of the target running, he hasn't gotten to cover yet, and tags him with a moderate wound.

On 7, Goon 2 got shot, and his initiative decreased, fires back at Runner 2, but missies due to her partial cover and his light wound.

On 0, all movement is complete, place the characters where they would have ended up.

Pass 2
Runner 1 has full cover.
Runner 2 has full cover.
Goon 1 has partial cover.
Goon 2 has partial cover.

On 5, Runner 1 decides to ready a grenade and throw it over the crates. He takes the blind fire penalty but he doesn't care. He gets lucky and places it 4 meters from Goon
1.

On 0, Runner 2 (with a higher reaction than goon 1 or 2, decides to run towards Runner 1's position. She can move 6 meters in this phase.

On 0, Goon 1 wants to move away from the grenade, but it detonates on 0 as well. He can move a total of 4.5 meters if he survives the blast.

On 0, Goon 2 doesn't move a bit.

Place all characters where they would have ended up.

If you want to take cover after firing but still be able get that full cover bonus, just drop prone. Of course this only works if you have cover that isn't taller than about shoulder high. Your enemies can do the same and you have a very realistic shootout
where you can't hit a damn thing (damn +8 and Barrier reduction). This negates being able to do any complex actions as you have to expend a simple to get up and shoot. someone eventually will want to move to a position where they can get a clear shot, and thus open themselves up for attack.

:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:

[RedmondLarry]

If a character simply takes cover in my game I use the simple Cover rules. +4 penalty to getting shot, no penalty to shooting.

If a character wants to duck in and out of cover to shoot or cast spells, I use the Advanced rules for Cover Modifiers (Cannon Companion page 97'). Using these rules provided by the game developers works for me.

[grendel]

[James McMurray]

Yeah, when the shooter is capable of delaying it won't really matter. The only times it would matter is when someone is going to kill the shooter before the runner comes out of cover again.

But I'm starting to think its just too much to track and I should be looking for simpler methods. I don't think I can break my group of the battlemat, and I don't really want to because it means a heck of a lot more stuff I have to keep track of in my head or on little scraps of paper. And since my head is like asieve some days, and I can blink and lose a sheet of paper, the battlemat is basically the only way I can function as a GM some days. :)

[mfb]

when someone starts their move, just place them halfway between their starting point and their endpoint, assign them a flat amount of cover basec on the terrain between the startpoint and endpoint, and leave it at that. when that character's next turn comes up, place their piece at the endpoint.

[RedmondLarry]

There is a simple way. The Advanced Cover rules on page 97 of Cannon Companion.

[The White Dwarf]

It doesnt matter when he is behind what shed, even with a battlemat.

If the shed is big enough to take up a square/hex/unit on the map, it allows you to determine a LoS from minature to minature at the time of the shot. If the shot is a held action, the shooter can just declare to shoot whenever the target is in an open area as it moves down the mat. If not, itll be apparent where the cover is using the models.

If the shed doesnt take up a square or likewise be marked on the mat, then its not big enough to provide total cover, leaving the same cover modifier youre left with anyhow.

It sounds like youre trying to find a rule that prevents people from using the 'move isnt an action' thing to cheese out by staying totally hidden when its not their turn. The way SR is written, thats an impossibility; there is no specific rule. Due to the generalized nature of the combat and the much more reactive delaying rules, it virtually cannot happen.

In any example of "whats to stop me from moving, shooting, and moving" the answer is "the opposition held an action until youre visible". Thats all there is to it. Youre in total cover behind a wall, I aim my gun there, you at some point have to move out to shoot, I take my shot first. Thats how it goes.

In the event of the attacker being able to act before the defender (thus creating a situation where the defender cannot have a delayed action), the defender loses. Thats the penalty for surprise in a world with guns or hp. Moral of the story: have high Perception, wear armor, and stay frosty.

[James McMurray]

Right, I get that now. That part of my original question was because I misunderstood the movement rules.

However, the second part is still not answered by your post. There will be times when movement does matter, such as when someone delays but they get killed before the runner comes out from cover. In that situation its the delayer that loses. Others have given good ways to figure out where someone is on a given combat phase.

Thanks for the input everyone!

[Method]

[James McMurray]

It looks like a simple and workable mechanic to me.

I assume movement would be declared in initiative order and only be set up to the midpoint (i.e. you could change directions if you've come under heavy fire).

I'll chat with my group this weekend. We'll definitely have to implement something to handle the fact that moving doesn't all occur on your combat phase. This might be one option that we try out.

[Method]

Right. You'd declare your intent to move at the same time as your actions. I think if you decide at the time of your action to stop movement (for example, you drop prone when you see the security force swinging a heavy machine gun at you) it doesn't really upset the flow of the action.

I would still apply a TN mod for running/walking if the character decided to stop, but I would also allow them to spend a simple action similar to "Take Aim" but instead of a -1 it would negate thier movement modifier. Note this is only if they decided to stop moving at the midpoint.

This would also adress the situation described in the QA about a runner that runs foreward, screams to a halt and then fires with no movement penaltys...

Also, because cover is somewhat more effective many will decide not to move. Because they can't pop out/fire/pop in they would very often fire from cover. I'm think of introducing a +2 modifier for "Firing from Cover" to balance this, and to reflect the restricted LOS, movement, etc....

[James McMurray]

If you use the alternate cover rules in CC the penalty for firing from cover is 1/2 the cover you receive. I don't think this is entirely realistic, as sometimes you'll have cover because you're laying prone behind a short will with a sniper rifle on a tripod.

[Bigity]

Then don't apply to those kind of situations.

Apply to CQB where you are leaning out from a wall, or standing up briefly behind a dumpster and firing a short range firearm.

[Method]

I'll have to take another look at those rules... I think some mod should apply.

[TeOdio]

[Method]

Thats a pretty characterful house rule... I kinda like it...