Spells that are useful at low Force, For mystic adepts who dabble in spellcasting Options

[Screaming Eagle]

Ok... the proposed confusion confuses me...

"a character with STR 5(7) needs a force 8-or-more spell to affect them"
this is precisly what this:
"The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected"
means.

The only other way I can see it being interpreted is if the force of the spell must equal or exceed the FINAL stats value after the spell is cast.

Having a force 3 spell make a str 12 troll (hits, probably 3 due to cap)stronger feels far more broken then having a force 8 spell increase a strenght 7 orc (hits, probably 4-6 due to dice pools being actually contraining) stronger. Mostly because one takes overcasting on most PC's and will most likely do drain and the other is some kind of joke for drain.

That and I have no idea where this alternate interpritation is coming from.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

To put it another way: do you remember the problem with letting reaction enhancers and initiative enhancers stack? There was no reason to buy a reaction stat of more than 3, since you could pretty much count on getting +6 to it fairly cheaply and easily.

Needing a minimum of a force 8 spell to buff a human with a stat of 7 is...odd...because at that point, the character may as well have a stat of 2 or 3 - you'll very likely hit the augmented cap anyway, so why waste the karma?

It really encourages mages to learn the buff spells, pick up a crapload of health sustaining focuses, and turn themselves into an Übermensch. For far less karma, at that.

[Screaming Eagle]

But the alternate doesn't stop that (boosting the low guys stats and saving teh karma) from happening, it just gives grossly added utility to lower force castings. Or am I out of my mind?

Yes the character will be more BP effeciant but anyone leaning too hard on a trick like this is going to faceplant HARD the instant its taken away, and it WILL get taken away at the worst possible moment.

Also last I checked sustaining Foci were expensive as all hell with a rather high avaliablity, if you AGI 1-3 mage has a force 4-6 sustaining focus to make himself a sharp shooter its where he blew a good slice of his cash.

I see your point, I don't really agree with it but I see it and it does make sence in certain contexts (I don't play with Min/maxers so I don't see this kind of thing much), but mostly I'm confused that you presented this as a different way to interperate the rules as they are written, if you don't mind my asking what leads you to this conclusion other then your opinion that this is broken?

[pbangarth]

Needing a minimum of a force 8 spell to buff a human with a stat of 7 is...odd...because at that point, the character may as well have a stat of 2 or 3 - you'll very likely hit the augmented cap anyway, so why waste the karma?

I don't quite see the logic in this. To raise an Attribute from 2 to 9, you would need on average a dice pool of 21, regardless of the Force of the spell. It would be very difficult to achieve such a dice pool. To raise an Attribute from 7 to 9, you would need on average a dice pool of 6. That's much easier to achieve. This would also work for a Troll at Attribute 7, for whom some attributes could go to 15 with a lucky roll if the Force of the spell is 8.

Your argument about karma/BP cost makes some sense. As does the argument that if you already have an Attribute at 7, how much of an improvement is it to raise it a point or two? My intuitive sense of the Force requirement is that there is both a balance/power thing going on, and there is a fluff concept that high Attributes are harder to bump with magic. The adept power Improved Physical Attribute also gets harder at higher values.

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

I'm exagerrating a bit, yeah - I'll cop to that. However, unless the GM is strict with focus addiction or remembers to force you through a ton of wards, you only need to succeed at that roll once. And if you're only aiming to go from a 4 to a 9, a relatively easy 15dp will get you there 50% of the time.

It's just that every time the devs looked at mages and thought "that looks a little overpowered" they come up with a rule that effectively says "so they should cast it at maximum force." See 4A's optional additional-drain-for-combat-spells mechanic. Skill gets you killed, while raw power is safer.

edit: Improved Physical Attribute doesn't get harder, just more expensive, yes?
A fair way to mimic that would be to have something like two-hits-count-for-one-point above the natural maximum (so raising either a 2 to a 6 or a 7 to a 9 would require 4 hits, and thus a minimum force 4 spell.)

[Udoshi]

For mystic adepts, I'd like to point out that the Attribute Boost power is actually better than it looks. I don't mean Improved Physical Attribute power, or even the improved attribute spell. Lets take a look at how it works:

Cost: .25 per level, must be bought per physical stat.
Use: Make a Magic+(attribute boost) test as a Simple Action. Each hit increases that attribute by one, but not past the augmented maximum, for twice the hits in Combat Turns.
Drain: When it ends, you resist Drain equal to the attribute boost rating in stun using body+will.
Stacking: Does not stack with spells or implants, except Improved Physical Attribute.

Okay, so only one level of Attribute boost for Body costs almost nothing, and you're an adept with, say, 5 points in adept powers and the rest reserved for casting. You drop, say, six dice for the attribute boost test. Its not a spell, so you don't have to Sustain it. Factor in some dice luck and you can have one(buying hits) to 4 extra stats for eight turns, and you've probably got one or two extra passes per turn. When it ends, its only ony one drain and you can buy hits for that easy.
Factor in Edge for attribute boost: Body. Being able to shoot your body up to or even close to the augmented max makes a huge difference in soaking damage - especially since its a rare stat to increase through augmentation. Its a simple action, though, so you can trigger the boost for Reaction at the same time, too, all for the price of one level of combat sense or mystic armor.

[pbangarth]

I agree that Attribute Boost is one of the best adept powers. It should be noted that a mystic adept will be able to use only that aspect of his Magic Attribute devoted to adept powers. So, if he has a split of 2 spellcaster / 3 adept, his dice pool would be 3 + Attribute Boost Level.

[Axl]

"A MA with magic 6 with lets say an even 3/3 split could cast force 6 spells but could only use 3 dice for them. So why would you need low force spells?" - WyldKnight


"Afraid 'not, else they'd be too good. 5-6 "Power points" and also a Magic of 5-6 for less cost than the Magician quality?" - Marwynn

A mystic adept with 6 Magic and a 3/3 split can indeed cast Force 6 spells. However this is overcasting and the drain is physical. Depending on the spell's drain code and the MA's drain resist dicepool, this might be a viable option.

[Screaming Eagle]

A mystic adept with 6 Magic and a 3/3 split can indeed cast Force 6 spells. However this is overcasting and the drain is physical. Depending on the spell's drain code and the MA's drain resist dicepool, this might be a viable option.

Death Touch - at force 6 the drain is a joke
Mask/ Invisability - even in and around force 3-5 (depending on you die pool - you aren't going to cast much higher then you can reliably roll) the drain is quite light and few people reliably get more then 2 successes on such tests - even if you flub the drain test a box or 2 of physical drain to be able to get away from a FUBAR situation can be priceless
Various "restricted target" spells get a new lease on life if you plan on overcasting ALOT and really don't want any drain - Spirit Bolt/touch (everyone complains they are overpowered so blow then to chunks for negative drain), moded for "self only" spells target spells (mask/ invisablity/ heal come to the top of my mind quick, shapeshift, levitate took a bit of thought and I'm sure there are tons of others if you have a book in front of you)

[Dakka Dakka]

Death Touch - at force 6 the drain is a joke

A spell that identifies you as caster but does not incapacitate the target isn't that great either.

Mask/ Invisability - even in and around force 3-5 (depending on you die pool - you aren't going to cast much higher then you can reliably roll) the drain is quite light and few people reliably get more then 2 successes on such tests - even if you flub the drain test a box or 2 of physical drain to be able to get away from a FUBAR situation can be priceless

Well if such people employ cameras you got a problem.

Various "restricted target" spells get a new lease on life if you plan on overcasting ALOT and really don't want any drain - Spirit Bolt/touch (everyone complains they are overpowered so blow then to chunks for negative drain), moded for "self only" spells target spells (mask/ invisablity/ heal come to the top of my mind quick, shapeshift, levitate took a bit of thought and I'm sure there are tons of others if you have a book in front of you)

That is a nice idea for reducing drain but you will probably overpay in karma if you want to have the unrestricted version as well.

[Screaming Eagle]

Well if such people employ cameras you got a problem.

I'm more thinking "not getting shot at (as much) after things have gone south" more then the more classic uses of the "improved" versions of the spell - A mystic adept is unlikely to get the hits to overcome electronic detection with the "improved" versions anyway (depending on which OR you deside is right)

And I agree the specific target versions are less usefull and you will most likely over-pay in the long run, but it might just make it more likely for you to HAVE a long run. "Slaughter Insect Spirits" was well worth the Karma for the redused drain when it came up... Stupid Bug City.

[Dakka Dakka]

I'm more thinking "not getting shot at (as much) after things have gone south" more then the more classic uses of the "improved" versions of the spell - A mystic adept is unlikely to get the hits to overcome electronic detection with the "improved" versions anyway (depending on which OR you deside is right)

I'm still not sure what would happen if the guards used headcameras and image links with minimal delay. Would they be affected by normal invisibility?

And I agree the specific target versions are less usefull and you will most likely over-pay in the long run, but it might just make it more likely for you to HAVE a long run. "Slaughter Insect Spirits" was well worth the Karma for the redused drain when it came up... Stupid Bug City.

Use the Stunball instead. the Insect spirits go back to whence they came just as fast, the drain is the same and it also works on all other living creatures.

[Screaming Eagle]

Lol... ok so "Stun ball Insect Spirits" if you prefer them "disrupted" rather then "slurry" - I happen to hope Slaugther HURTS more and makes them think twice about coming back ina hurry. (edit - the choise to take the target specific version was on a full mage - it was my first combat spell with the character and the only one for a while after, he was not a very violent person and was gernarlly careful with leaving astral sigs around but insect spirirts are just *shudder*)
It not about matching the full mages deadliness at spell slinging, its about having a place in the group - if that place is captain weird ass spell with no drain who also happens to have some adept powers, good job.

And I have rarely given thought to invisablity being defeated by guards that have cameras on their heads feeding to their AR display, imagelink, smart link etc - based on many (logical) interpritations regular invis is USELESS since the advent of AR/ image link and the improved version (which makes no real sence logically) has to overcome OR 3-5 nearly all the time. I don't run it that way and even then its not ment to defeat everything by a long shot, that doesn't mean its not useful. Don't you ever need to just run from gangers or avoid an angry mob?

[Falconer]

Increase attribute:

Force should be as high or higher than the augmented attribute value. The spell has a drain code of -2. For a human that means force 9 casting only has a mere drain of 3. It's great spell for full mages, lousy spell for mystic adepts.



Attribute boost:
great power for Mystic adepts... especially if you're using a power focus. Normal adepts can't get bonus dice this way as they can't bind these foci. If building out of chargen, consider heavily going for a rating 4 power focus right out of chargen.

Though once again, muscle toner or other bioware is probably a better pick than the adept power.

[pbangarth]

Attribute boost:
great power for Mystic adepts... especially if you're using a power focus. Normal adepts can't get bonus dice this way as they can't bind these foci.

Yes, an adept can bind and use a power focus; it's the older and more general form of "magician" as "all Awakened characters - full magicians, adepts, mystic adepts, etc." The focus still only adds its Force to the character's Magic for tests, like Attribute Boost.

The second quote would seem to contradict the first.

[Falconer]

Hmm... did they change that in SR4a... I thought I remembered something about about pure adepts only being able to bond and use weapon foci. But it must be flawed recall on that one, as I don't have access to the old books at the moment and don't see it in the new edition.

But looks like they can bond anything... they just can't use anything. (and 8x karma and the cost of a power focus is pretty prohibitive for an adept who'll only use it on a few marginal powers.).

[pbangarth]

But looks like they can bond anything... they just can't use anything. (and 8x karma and the cost of a power focus is pretty prohibitive for an adept who'll only use it on a few marginal powers.).

Which is why, from simply a cost perspective, it is best to get one at character creation. This is true for all magicians, not just adepts.