What spells would you recommend for a mystic adept with only 2-3 points in adept spellcasting?

I've actually been addressing this problem just now, as I am creating a mystic adept for use in a PbP campaign. The low Force available to such a spellcaster is a problem, so it is a good idea to find spells that are not as dependent on Force to be effective. Combat Spells and others that require net hits don't figure highly in this scheme, because hits are limited by Force. The mystic adept is still an adept, and many spells can perform the function of beefing up his characteristics or personal powers, as do adept powers.

Here is a sample of some spells I think might work (to varying degrees):

SR4:
Increase [Attribute]
Increase Reflexes
Levitate
Combat Sense
Heal
Resist Pain
Stealth
Armor (and variants)
Magic Fingers

SM:
Catfall
Fashion/Makeover/Healthy Glow
Mana Static
Preserve
Reinforce
Stim
Translate
Catalog
Enhance Aim

DG:
Decontamination
Radiation Shield

A problem I typically have with mystic adepts is their lack of distinct niche. What can they do better than anyone else? The only thing I can really think of is the knockout/death-touch/shatter touch adept.

Levitation is an excellent on, although it is problematic, because of the limitation on speed [force * net successes, so a maximum of 9 meters per turn with a force 3 spell, 4 meters per turn for force 2]. If you're just moving yourself, weight is less troublesome, and frankly the spell is useful even at Force 1.

Probably my favorite is Shapechange. Really the only thing successes here count for is resistance to counterspelling. Shapechange is one of the most useful spells in the mage's arsenal - seriously, I can just be a seagull? - and is perfectly useful at low force, where sustaining isn't so difficult against its kind-of-punishing drain.

Can mystic adepts use sustaining foci? I don't see any reason they can't. With a sustaining focus, both Levitation and Shapechange are much more useful. Great roleplaying opportunities, too.

What would be some good forms for Shapechange? And yes, overcast focus-sustained Levitation is awesome, even at force 4 or so ^_^

Also, could someone post a formula for deriving KPH from net hits? I tried, but my math skills suck. Assume 3 seconds to a combat turn, as SR4A defines a combat turn as "about" 3 seconds. Threshold = (kilograms lifted / 200), so if you wanted to get fancy you could make the formula work for total hits instead of net. I haven't done algebra in years, and I feel stupid for not being able to figure it out

How much Magic will be left for you to cast with?

Don't neglect summoning. A Force 3 Spirit is still quite useful, that is if you have Magic 3.

Decrease Attributes (say Willpower or Reaction) are still good at lower Forces, Touch Attack is all you need. Detect Life, Extended, is still good. Assuming F3 and M3 you have a 90m range.

Influence, Control Thoughts, in fact all the mental manipulations are still good at Force 3. You oppose roll against his Will and Counterspelling.

If the MysAd is more of a Recon/Ninja type, Astral Window (SM) is also of benefit. Plenty of good spells at lower Forces.

Edge shenanigans can be especially useful to low magic casters since spending a point of edge unlocks the force limiter on spells. This can also theoretically be used with low force Sustaining Foci. Pixie Mystic Adepts for the adorable win!

Shadowrun 4 [finally!] places a limit on this ultra-powerful spell by only allowing transformation into [non-paranormal] critters with a body within 2 of the mage's. If the mage's Body is 3, that means animals from Body 1 to 5. [A Troll mage with a Body of 10 could transform into an animal with a Body of 12! That includes Great White Sharks. But he's barred from, say, seagulls.] For the average Shadowrunner, the best animals aren't going to be enormous apex predators, but common sprawl animals like rats, crows, seagulls, feral cats, dogs, and so on. Any flying animal gives you enormous range and mobility, and without the public distraction of having a human floating around up there. Bats have ecolocation, as do dolphins [Body 8, unfortunately for our humans].

Shapechange is great for fitting in, for getting somewhere a human couldn't be, but an animal can. It's not carte blanche, though: assensing will still reveal your true nature, although Masking should cover that eventuality.


In Shadowrun, all Speed - car, people, birds, whatever - is in "meters per combat turn," which is 1/3 meter per second. The simple formula is to multiply Speed by 1.2 to get KPH, or 0.75 to get MPH. Levitate with a Force of 3, even with maximum successes, can only propel the user 10.8kph [6.7mph]. On the other hand, at Force 5, maximum successes gets you a Speed of 25, or almost 20 miles per hour. Not bad.

Anyway, the formula is Force * net hits * 1.2.

Thank you SO much. I was thinking of donning a robe which completely concealed my body and sustaining (with focus) a force 3 (to start) Levitation spell. Make him a vampire or nosferatu for extra cool points. Remember that an average human male only walks about 5 kph, and runs about 10. An athlete might average a running speed of 20 kph. 10.8 is nothing to sneeze at, esp. in 3 dimensions!

On a more practical note, speed is much less important for things like getting a group over a fence or a vehicle out of a ditch.

And Levitate gets you (and others) to that balcony without having to climb.

A few more from Street Magic (which I wish I could use) that are a bit situational and may require interpretation: Night Vision and Thermographic Vision seem to require nothing at all to work and saves you from having to spend money/essence/qualities/race for the vision mods. And Element Aura could be seen to change your melee attacks to be resisted with half impact armor even with only a single hit on the spellcasting test.

A really low level bound spirit of man could probably cast one of those vision spells on you if you don't want to sustain it yourself. Course, that goes for most all of these options.

Wait I am a bit confused about something. I was going to make a Mystic Adept at some point in the future and I was under the assumption that the max force a MA could cast wasn't limited by his dice in magic but by his whole magic stat. In other words a MA with magic 6 with lets say an even 3/3 split could cast force 6 spells but could only use 3 dice for them. So why would you need low force spells?

Afraid 'not, else they'd be too good. 5-6 "Power points" and also a Magic of 5-6 for less cost than the Magician quality?



And the example below that illustrates it. A mage has Magic 4, devoting 1 point to Powers, the 3 to "Magic".

Whoops, we have been playing it the wrong way then lol. Actually from someone who has been in a group playing it against RAW they aren't too good. They rarely have the dice pool big enough to make large use of their spellcasting. We have a straight up mage as well and while the MA is pretty good at what it does the mage still beats it in anything magic related because of a larger dice pool and not having to spread it's initiations as much.

And I wasn't saying 5-6 power points AND 5-6 points in magic. I was saying that if he split the points he would have 3 dice for magic, 3 points for powers, but the force of the spell was limited by his combined magic not the 3 dice. So it was 3 points, 3 magic, 6 as the ceiling. Though since it could be broken its more of a glass ceiling, you just cut up on the way through.

Oh an MA can still have high dicepools. Just gotta focus it more though. My Social Chameleon MA can throw roughly 10-12 dice for his most common spells. Granted at Force 3. He can still summon too. And the Adept Powers are useful, like Digital Grimoire's Memory Displacement.

It'll cost a lot of karma but unless you want some sorta combat monster the MA is exceptional. Hence why I stay away from it most of the time... too easy to munchkinize.

Increase Reflexes + Silence + Improved Invisibility + thermal dampening on your armor + knockout (melee stunbolt), death touch (melee manabolt) or shatter (melee powerbolt). +2 to hit people (since you only need to touch them), and drain isn't much of an issue considering the drain values for touch spells. Silence fools ultrasound, t. damp. fools thermal imaging, invisibility fools normal vision.

Of course, you could do that with a magician. But magicians can't take traceless walk, improved ability [infiltration], adept centering, or any of the other adept-only goodies.

But that's true for normal Mages, there are plenty of Kung-Fu Mages out there. And I'm assuming those are all through sustained foci.

To get all that you'll need serious funds and Karma to bind. Then the other part of the "combat monster" is of course the shooting and/or the thwacking. Still more points. I'm not saying MAs can't be deadly combatants, they're Magician and Adepts, but since they have so much to spend on it becomes harder to progress.

the face in my group is a MA with 3 points in adept and 2 in magic. she runs shapechange, influence, and petrify, and runs these very well.

Petrify? That seems like an odd choice. Potentially fun and/or funny, but odd.

insta-restraints/gag

Ahh.

let me comment on the varying degrees

Increase [Attribute]: No attribute higher than Force may be increased.
Increase Reflexes: Contrary to the adept power and 'ware this only improves Initiative score and passes. The others Increase REA! Also at force 3 the fourth IP is impossible to get, barring the Edge "exploit".
Levitate: works, but isn't as fast as a pure mage.
Combat Sense: You get the sustaining penalty, and its effectiveness is a lot more variable than the adept power's
Heal: No more than 3 Boxes may be healed at F3, unless you use Edge.
Resist Pain: No more than a -1 can be negated.
Stealth: Should work against humans, but technology would be a problem. No more than OR 3 could be fooled.
Armor (and variants): Woohoo now you got the big "shoot me first, I'm a mage"-Sign without being a real mage.
Magic Fingers: Effective AGI and STR of 1 isn't that great.

Catfall
Fashion/Makeover/Healthy Glow
Mana Static
Preserve
Reinforce
Stim
Translate
Catalog
Enhance Aim
I don't see any problems with those.

Actually, it's: "The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected. The attribute is increased by an amount equal to the hits scored."

Which tends to start a lot of arguments...did they mean a force 3 spell can raise anyone's strength by up to 3 points, or did they mean that a character with STR 5(7) needs a force 8-or-more spell to affect them?

Last I heard, the consensus leaned toward the former - which, at least has the benefit of keeping the spell cast at a low cap - the second case would frequently see huge swings in the result.

To me it is obviously the latter meaning. The augmented attribute is the 7 in parentheses of 5(7). a) this would make even a force 1 spell very powerful if it can affect an attribute of 5(7) b)this diverges from the rules of earlier editions.

Which huge swings are you referring to? The spell's effect is still subject to the attribute caps and even if it is cast at great force only the hits augment the attribute.

Yes, only the hits augment the attribute - a force 3 spell is capped at a total of 3 hits, but a force 8 spell is capped at 8...which can turn a troll weakling into a troll god.

Somebody getting one or two extra dice doesn't bother me - somebody tripling their attribute does. The 2nd interpretation almost demands going that route.

Ok... the proposed confusion confuses me...

"a character with STR 5(7) needs a force 8-or-more spell to affect them"
this is precisly what this:
"The Force of the spell must equal or exceed the (augmented) value of the attribute being affected"
means.

The only other way I can see it being interpreted is if the force of the spell must equal or exceed the FINAL stats value after the spell is cast.

Having a force 3 spell make a str 12 troll (hits, probably 3 due to cap)stronger feels far more broken then having a force 8 spell increase a strenght 7 orc (hits, probably 4-6 due to dice pools being actually contraining) stronger. Mostly because one takes overcasting on most PC's and will most likely do drain and the other is some kind of joke for drain.

That and I have no idea where this alternate interpritation is coming from.

To put it another way: do you remember the problem with letting reaction enhancers and initiative enhancers stack? There was no reason to buy a reaction stat of more than 3, since you could pretty much count on getting +6 to it fairly cheaply and easily.

Needing a minimum of a force 8 spell to buff a human with a stat of 7 is...odd...because at that point, the character may as well have a stat of 2 or 3 - you'll very likely hit the augmented cap anyway, so why waste the karma?

It really encourages mages to learn the buff spells, pick up a crapload of health sustaining focuses, and turn themselves into an Übermensch. For far less karma, at that.

But the alternate doesn't stop that (boosting the low guys stats and saving teh karma) from happening, it just gives grossly added utility to lower force castings. Or am I out of my mind?

Yes the character will be more BP effeciant but anyone leaning too hard on a trick like this is going to faceplant HARD the instant its taken away, and it WILL get taken away at the worst possible moment.

Also last I checked sustaining Foci were expensive as all hell with a rather high avaliablity, if you AGI 1-3 mage has a force 4-6 sustaining focus to make himself a sharp shooter its where he blew a good slice of his cash.

I see your point, I don't really agree with it but I see it and it does make sence in certain contexts (I don't play with Min/maxers so I don't see this kind of thing much), but mostly I'm confused that you presented this as a different way to interperate the rules as they are written, if you don't mind my asking what leads you to this conclusion other then your opinion that this is broken?

I don't quite see the logic in this. To raise an Attribute from 2 to 9, you would need on average a dice pool of 21, regardless of the Force of the spell. It would be very difficult to achieve such a dice pool. To raise an Attribute from 7 to 9, you would need on average a dice pool of 6. That's much easier to achieve. This would also work for a Troll at Attribute 7, for whom some attributes could go to 15 with a lucky roll if the Force of the spell is 8.

Your argument about karma/BP cost makes some sense. As does the argument that if you already have an Attribute at 7, how much of an improvement is it to raise it a point or two? My intuitive sense of the Force requirement is that there is both a balance/power thing going on, and there is a fluff concept that high Attributes are harder to bump with magic. The adept power Improved Physical Attribute also gets harder at higher values.

I'm exagerrating a bit, yeah - I'll cop to that. However, unless the GM is strict with focus addiction or remembers to force you through a ton of wards, you only need to succeed at that roll once. And if you're only aiming to go from a 4 to a 9, a relatively easy 15dp will get you there 50% of the time.

It's just that every time the devs looked at mages and thought "that looks a little overpowered" they come up with a rule that effectively says "so they should cast it at maximum force." See 4A's optional additional-drain-for-combat-spells mechanic. Skill gets you killed, while raw power is safer.

edit: Improved Physical Attribute doesn't get harder, just more expensive, yes?
A fair way to mimic that would be to have something like two-hits-count-for-one-point above the natural maximum (so raising either a 2 to a 6 or a 7 to a 9 would require 4 hits, and thus a minimum force 4 spell.)

For mystic adepts, I'd like to point out that the Attribute Boost power is actually better than it looks. I don't mean Improved Physical Attribute power, or even the improved attribute spell. Lets take a look at how it works:

Cost: .25 per level, must be bought per physical stat.
Use: Make a Magic+(attribute boost) test as a Simple Action. Each hit increases that attribute by one, but not past the augmented maximum, for twice the hits in Combat Turns.
Drain: When it ends, you resist Drain equal to the attribute boost rating in stun using body+will.
Stacking: Does not stack with spells or implants, except Improved Physical Attribute.

Okay, so only one level of Attribute boost for Body costs almost nothing, and you're an adept with, say, 5 points in adept powers and the rest reserved for casting. You drop, say, six dice for the attribute boost test. Its not a spell, so you don't have to Sustain it. Factor in some dice luck and you can have one(buying hits) to 4 extra stats for eight turns, and you've probably got one or two extra passes per turn. When it ends, its only ony one drain and you can buy hits for that easy.
Factor in Edge for attribute boost: Body. Being able to shoot your body up to or even close to the augmented max makes a huge difference in soaking damage - especially since its a rare stat to increase through augmentation. Its a simple action, though, so you can trigger the boost for Reaction at the same time, too, all for the price of one level of combat sense or mystic armor.

I agree that Attribute Boost is one of the best adept powers. It should be noted that a mystic adept will be able to use only that aspect of his Magic Attribute devoted to adept powers. So, if he has a split of 2 spellcaster / 3 adept, his dice pool would be 3 + Attribute Boost Level.

"A MA with magic 6 with lets say an even 3/3 split could cast force 6 spells but could only use 3 dice for them. So why would you need low force spells?" - WyldKnight


"Afraid 'not, else they'd be too good. 5-6 "Power points" and also a Magic of 5-6 for less cost than the Magician quality?" - Marwynn

A mystic adept with 6 Magic and a 3/3 split can indeed cast Force 6 spells. However this is overcasting and the drain is physical. Depending on the spell's drain code and the MA's drain resist dicepool, this might be a viable option.

Death Touch - at force 6 the drain is a joke
Mask/ Invisability - even in and around force 3-5 (depending on you die pool - you aren't going to cast much higher then you can reliably roll) the drain is quite light and few people reliably get more then 2 successes on such tests - even if you flub the drain test a box or 2 of physical drain to be able to get away from a FUBAR situation can be priceless
Various "restricted target" spells get a new lease on life if you plan on overcasting ALOT and really don't want any drain - Spirit Bolt/touch (everyone complains they are overpowered so blow then to chunks for negative drain), moded for "self only" spells target spells (mask/ invisablity/ heal come to the top of my mind quick, shapeshift, levitate took a bit of thought and I'm sure there are tons of others if you have a book in front of you)

A spell that identifies you as caster but does not incapacitate the target isn't that great either.
Well if such people employ cameras you got a problem.
That is a nice idea for reducing drain but you will probably overpay in karma if you want to have the unrestricted version as well.

I'm more thinking "not getting shot at (as much) after things have gone south" more then the more classic uses of the "improved" versions of the spell - A mystic adept is unlikely to get the hits to overcome electronic detection with the "improved" versions anyway (depending on which OR you deside is right)

And I agree the specific target versions are less usefull and you will most likely over-pay in the long run, but it might just make it more likely for you to HAVE a long run. "Slaughter Insect Spirits" was well worth the Karma for the redused drain when it came up... Stupid Bug City.

I'm still not sure what would happen if the guards used headcameras and image links with minimal delay. Would they be affected by normal invisibility?

Use the Stunball instead. the Insect spirits go back to whence they came just as fast, the drain is the same and it also works on all other living creatures.

Lol... ok so "Stun ball Insect Spirits" if you prefer them "disrupted" rather then "slurry" - I happen to hope Slaugther HURTS more and makes them think twice about coming back ina hurry. (edit - the choise to take the target specific version was on a full mage - it was my first combat spell with the character and the only one for a while after, he was not a very violent person and was gernarlly careful with leaving astral sigs around but insect spirirts are just *shudder*)
It not about matching the full mages deadliness at spell slinging, its about having a place in the group - if that place is captain weird ass spell with no drain who also happens to have some adept powers, good job.

And I have rarely given thought to invisablity being defeated by guards that have cameras on their heads feeding to their AR display, imagelink, smart link etc - based on many (logical) interpritations regular invis is USELESS since the advent of AR/ image link and the improved version (which makes no real sence logically) has to overcome OR 3-5 nearly all the time. I don't run it that way and even then its not ment to defeat everything by a long shot, that doesn't mean its not useful. Don't you ever need to just run from gangers or avoid an angry mob?

Increase attribute:

Force should be as high or higher than the augmented attribute value. The spell has a drain code of -2. For a human that means force 9 casting only has a mere drain of 3. It's great spell for full mages, lousy spell for mystic adepts.



Attribute boost:
great power for Mystic adepts... especially if you're using a power focus. Normal adepts can't get bonus dice this way as they can't bind these foci. If building out of chargen, consider heavily going for a rating 4 power focus right out of chargen.

Though once again, muscle toner or other bioware is probably a better pick than the adept power.

The second quote would seem to contradict the first.

Hmm... did they change that in SR4a... I thought I remembered something about about pure adepts only being able to bond and use weapon foci. But it must be flawed recall on that one, as I don't have access to the old books at the moment and don't see it in the new edition.

But looks like they can bond anything... they just can't use anything. (and 8x karma and the cost of a power focus is pretty prohibitive for an adept who'll only use it on a few marginal powers.).

Which is why, from simply a cost perspective, it is best to get one at character creation. This is true for all magicians, not just adepts.