 Over the top Force, Spirits, Concealment, and Mana Bolt |
  |
 Jun 16 2006, 01:38 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Target  Group: Members Posts: 23 Joined: 16-February 06 Member No.: 8,272  |
I think the problem really is that you've been too lax with the spirits.
Yes, spirits are powerful, but as a GM, it's your job to keep things in check to make the campaign challenging. Here's what I'd do: You roleplay the spirit, not the player. The player can request what spell is cast by the spirit. The player cannot/should not request the spirit to overcast spells unless the circumstances make sense. For example, the player rolled extremely well on binding test, so that the spirit LOVES him. By the same token, some spirits should dislike the player. In fact, as stated in the books, spirits hate being in the service of mages with magic rating lower than their force as they see them as beneath them. When such a spirit is forced into service of a player, you can feel free to make the spirit be as difficult to deal with as possible. Think dealing with an evil genie who would love nothing more than to burst you into flames but is forced to grant you 3 wishes. Make the player word his wishes (tasks) carefully! Always have magical support for the NPC if your mage is dominating the actions. In my experience when that happens, it's the mundanes that determine the outcome of the fight, not the mages. Any astral beings will be able to spot the concealed people easily. Have some hellhounds/cocktrices as security pets. Or just plain old mages that spot intrusion and mark them up on other mundane security's AR. Use more technology. Motion sensors, drones, ultrasounds.... I'd rule that concealment needs to beat technological devices' object resistance test to affect them as well. |
 |
 
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 01:43 PM
Post
#52
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Yeah, you're right. I have been a little lax. As for the Object resistance, concealment doesn't require a roll to initiate. It just is. Should I treat it like a spellcasting test? The mentions nothing of the sort, or am I missing something. I've made some house-rules to deal with these problems already, it's just I thought I might not have had to... |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 03:36 PM
Post
#53
|
|||||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
You know, when I read page 185 it says
Maybe we have different editions or something? To me, that includes attempts to push through a barrier, which is an attempt to break through. That same page also points out that the GM is well within his rights to impose a penalty on a spirit trying to sustain concealment or movement on runners who have passed to the other side of the barrier. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:07 PM
Post
#54
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Oh. I was interpreting "Any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator" to mean that any attack on a mana barrier or attempt to break through is immediately felt by the creator. Silly me. Okay, yeah, I'm being snarky, sorry. What I'm saying is that yes, you can say that page 185 says "break through" and 186 says "pass through," and so the pass-through attempt does not alert the creator. However, I'd like to make two points against that argument:
That's where I'm coming from for that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:10 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
A lot of this is just re-stating what's already been said, but:
Concealment might make it harder for guards to notice the runners, but alarms will still go off when they have to open doors, step on pressure plates, etc. Any building with decent security is going to have wards around it's secure entrances. So just stick cheap force 1 wards all over the place (at choke points, entrances, in between floors in elevator shafts...) My guards are fond of non-lethal attacks that don't require aiming or much skill, and don't cause a lot of collateral damage. Stun grenades, thermal smoke, gas attacks, sonic blasts, flash packs, electric shock defenses attached to doornobs, etc. Anything that obscures physical vision also obscures astral perception (partial cover, smoke, fog, tinted glass, etc.) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:11 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
If neither method (Passing through nor Taking it down) is stealthy then there is absolutely no method to avoid detection other than forcing the Mage to let you through?
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:14 PM
Post
#57
|
|||
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
Of course there is. Send your spirit back to the Spirit Waiting Room, and deactivate all your spells and foci. Then waltz right in. The ward can't block or detect anything that isn't on the astral plane. Your mileage may vary on the calling a spirit from the metaplanes to the astral plane while within a ward; some say that the metaplanes touch every part of the astral plane, and so it's okay, some say the ward blocks it. I lean toward the former, myself, for what that's worth. With luck, we'll know for certain when Street Magic drops. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:19 PM
Post
#58
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Correct. The only way through a ward without setting off an alarm is to have no active astral forms. No spells, no active foci, etc. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:22 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
That always confused me.
There's Physical Mana barriers that block magic on the Phyiscal Plane and then there's the Physical Barrier spell that blocks phyiscal object on the phyiscal plane. It's weird because they refer to the spell along with the ward in the same section. I never quite knew what to make from that... At least that was confirmed for me, thanks for clairfying. Oh, I read the section again and you're right. Slipping/breaking through does alert thr mage. sorry for being stupid... :dead: |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:25 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 392 |
I too have found that spirits and sprites are too powerful in SR4. By combining the abilities of both shamanic spirits and elementals things have gotten out of hand.
I once destroyed a buddies' game. There were only 3 of us playing (plus GM) so he let us all make 2 characters if we wanted. I made a Technomancer and a Mage. The mage had roughly 13 dice to summon and 21 dice to bind spirits of man (I don't have the sheet handy). He was hovering at 11 and 14 dice for all other spirits respectively. The technomancer was just god at doing everything in the matrix. While we were doing legwork we alerted an opposing force. They sent a car full of cyber goons to tail us and scare us off. My technomancer compiled a Machine Sprite, waited until we were on a bridge with an oil tanker in the oncoming traffic lane, and then told the machine sprite to take over the goons' car and slam it into the tanker. The building we were infiltrating had no wireless connectivity. There was no wired access in the sewers, only a link on the roof for the rooftop security and mundane needs. The mage bound a couple of spirits and summoned an Air spirit. The Air spirit flew the technomancer up to the roof while other spirits concealed him. He popped open the link box and hacked the system. In one game I was running I tried to do a run where the players had 2 days to find a briefcase that had been stolen and was somewhere in Seattle. The briefcase actually had the SR equivalent of the CAS' nuclear football. The opponents were a team of runners who had made 5 fake briefcases and thrown them all with the football into the back of a truck and had a spirit randomly mix them up. Each then took a briefcase and went their separate way until their Johnson called. The mage in the group read the Search power and then bound a Force 6 spirit. It takes a spirit no more than 2 hours (more like 45 minutes) to find a briefcase like that in Seattle. The technomancer then gains access to the nearest Grid Guide cam to see who is holding it and if it is one of the runners the team gets dispatched while he hacks the opponent's commlink. A little snooping around and a little interrogation later and they were able to find all the briefcases in a day. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:30 PM
Post
#61
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
SO the mage/spirit had prior experience (had seen/sensed it in some way) ahead of time? The only way you can find something via search is if you have interacted with it before, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:31 PM
Post
#62
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Meh, no problem. An apology goes a long way. Rereading my post I came off as a lot snarkier than I meant to. Sorry 'bout that. I'm glad we've got it figured out, and I'm glad we've helped you find some of the errors your PCs have been exploiting. I think you'll find that fixing all these things and implementing some of the basic countermeasures will really tone down their magic power. Now granted, magic is still powerful, but hopefully now you won't feel like security gets totally owned without a dedicated initiated mage on-site at all times. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:33 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
Cheops, a question:
13 to summon, but 21 to bind? how'd you manage that? (yes I know you'll have to look it up at some point) Magic+binding+totem+focus = 21? Just don't see it. (I can get up to 18 -> 6+7+2+3, but that's it for a starting character.) |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:33 PM
Post
#64
|
|||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Of course, a simple ward on each briefcase will prevent the spirit from finding it. Or a ward on the car trunk that the briefcase is in. Search is trivial to block. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:35 PM
Post
#65
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I had every intention of making things much harder from now on. This helps in many-a-way. THanks to EVERYONE who posted useful tips for me and others with my magical doubts. :D
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:39 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 829 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 770 |
A ward won't stop a searching spirit, unless the ward's force exceeds the spirit's Magic+Intuition (i.e. 2x spirits force, afaict) see the Search Modifiers Table on pg. 290.
It may, however, delay the spirit long enough to render the service moot. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 04:45 PM
Post
#67
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Multiple wards may help
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:15 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,148 Joined: 27-February 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 8,314 |
As far as the searching goes, I assume that the summoner had seen the target before. If I was running the game, and the summoner had only seen a picture of the briefcase, I'd happily have the spirit dash out and find a picture of a briefcase.
Here's the next thing: unless the briefcase was a custom job, wouldn't the spirit find every copy of that breifcase in the city? |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:17 PM
Post
#69
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You can have a force 10 spirit with concealment, force 10 invisiibty spell (with all successes), force 10 stealth spell (with all successes), and 10 stealth dice (with all successes and it won't matter in the slightest because there's a gaurd standing directly in front of the door. You have to move him to get through.
You can attack him, but that comes with it's own problems. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:19 PM
Post
#70
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
You forgot +2 for specialization on the skill. Also, is your skill still limited to 6 when you get the aptitude edge? I thought that just raised the maximum later, but I've got no books handy so I could be wrong. I forget the bonuses, but there's a Home Ground advantage that might help as well, since you're probably almost always binding spirits in your home. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:25 PM
Post
#71
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Okay, attack that loafing guard, what's gonna happen? More loafing guards are called in? What will they do? They can't stop the runners. We're talking Chem Sealed (no gas), nonconductive (no stunning crap), enough skill to get through doors during a lockdown (hardware and muscle), and hacking skill to screw with alarms.
|
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:27 PM
Post
#72
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Okay. I'm curious now, so let me work this one through. There are 6 briefcases, and each one needs to be found separately, so that's 6 tasks from the spirit. The summoner needs to be able to provide a precise mental image, but that's something the Johnson could have potentially arranged. A photo, or even an (empty) duplicate briefcase. Whatever. The spirit has 12 dice. Search starts at Extended (5, 10 minutes). The target is inanimate (+5) and you have a search radius of, say, 15 km. So you're looking at 12 dice versus (25, 10 minutes). On average, that's going to take 60-70 minutes per search. (The main factor here is the radius, so if you figured on a tighter area, that would change the numbers a good bit). The chances of a glitch on 12 dice are so slight as to not even be worth considering. Put a Force 6 ward on the briefcase, and now the spirit is rolling 6 dice. That's going to take about 2 hours per search, and the chances of a glitch are higher (but still minor). Did I miss anything? I hadn't actually looked at Search before. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:27 PM
Post
#73
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Collapsible monowire mazes. Seriously, though, it seems like you allowed your group to get a little too powerful at the outset, and you're not creating adequate consequences and defenses against them. To be honest, and I hate to be mean, but... maybe it's time to scrap the runner team and let someone else GM. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:39 PM
Post
#74
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
Ouch, that was blunt...
To be honest a lot of these defenses are great if you're raiding a Corp with something to hide but that hasn't always been the case. I guess the solution i need is to put the PCs up against opponents with resources. You're right about the PCs getting a too much too quick. The problem is they have had so much fun with the runners they have created they don't see any reason to scrap them. Oh, and someone else does GM on and off. We take turns an the players use the same PCs in each. |
|
|
|
|
Jun 16 2006, 05:44 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 984 Joined: 15-June 06 Member No.: 8,717 |
I do have in-game reasons why the PCs have had it easy up until this point (in response to my screw ups). Making it harder on them won't be too hard and doesn't invovle quitting but rather improving and becoming a better SR GM and player.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 17th September 2025 - 07:09 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.