Ahem...

There is no cap on Magic. With enough Magic (really not that much) you can cast Mana bolts capable of killing any non-counterspelling person flat dead no problem. Mana Bolt is only (Force/2) Drain, BASE DAMAGE is based on the force of the spell, and that damage is only resisted by Willpower (plus counterspelling if you're lucky enough to have your non-cybered mage friend go first). No armor, nor Armor spell, not much at all. Even with 6 Will (7 if you bought that Pain Editor) that's squat.

Concealment provides penalties to Perception tests equal to the Force of the Spirit on a number of targets equal to, yet again, Force. Being as force isn't limited by anything but your mages's Magic x2 two that means Force 6, 7, 8, etc. Concealment on the entire party for as long as the Spirit sustains it (which incurs no penalties, they're Critters using natural Critter powers). Most people don't even have that many die. Some the example NPC's in the rulebook don't even have enough to stand a chance (The Renraku Red Samurai leader guy only has 8 dice). I put my PC's up against SWAT team like NPCs only to see them get mowed down in mere IP's. The SWAT guys were surprised (+6 ambush to the surprise test) and couldn't see where the shots were coming from (no REA to dodge). Is that right?

What's more summoning high level spirits (but not neccesarily binding them) seems way too easy. My Dwarven Mage uses 13 dice to summon (+5 Edge usually) and has summoned several Force 10 spirits of man pretty easy. Plus those spirits roll 20 dice (Force in skills and Force Magic) for spellcasting and the like. With the Analyze Device spell (which I can give it via Innate Spell) it can hack for me. That's right. All tests with a given commlink that I give it are augmented by the net hits the <b>Spirit</b> receives on it's spellcasting roll (20 dice, remember?) are adding to the Programs I give it. On top of all those crazy dice it gets naturally it can use (Force) in Edge.

I am doing something wrong? From what I can tell the whole Force system is broken when put side to side with other PCs that cap. I would love for someone to put me in my place. I really want to be wrong. I have already considered nixing spirits from my game already. Can some one give me some perspective????

Totally new and undiscovered ideas!

Yes. Magic and spirits can be overpowering. Until you die summoning a spirit, which is going to happen.

And unlimited advancement means you can become incredibly powerful, but first you need to get the karma. And survive.

Agreed. 1/50 times that Dwaft is going to be eating 14 damage from drain. That's assuming the spirits don't use edge.
Yes, a very powerful mage can kill an unprotected human pretty easily. Fortunately, important people are never unprotected for that very reason. And is it really that much easier than killing an unprotected person with a Panther Cannon?
I understand that you're worried about what a 1000 Karma spellcaster could do, but I suggest you worry about that when you actually have one.
Besides, if spirits are really that easy to make uber, then you're going to need them to combat the other guy's spirits.

It's not even 1000 karma that I'm woried about, its right now at about 80.

And surviving is never a problem, there's always Edge.

And you don't have to summon ungodly spirits to take advantage of Concealment.

The only reason I'm asking is because the effect spirits are having on my gaming group is a little distressing. Im not preaching, im pleading. Are these problems in only my group? If not how do other groups reconcile thme?

Also, the difference between having armor and high Reaction to save you from that Panther and having high Will and maybe some counterspelling for that unavoidable direct manabolt is considerable. It is far less likely that you'll have adequate protestion against that Manabolt. Most PC's don't and we can't all be Awakened.

Allright. True, you could always Escape Certain Death if the drain would otherwise destroy you, but if that happens you're taking a big karma hit and the GM ought to be spanking you pretty hard.
Yes, spirits can cast uber powerful spells, are you taking a minute per spell to erase every astral signature, or are you being actively hunted by the police and military?
I'm pretty sure having a spirit hack for you is munchy, and shouldn't be allowed. They can't use trodes, so no VR. I suppose they could see an AR display, I think this is more a case of the GM failing to disallow an obviously munchy and against the spirit of the rules abuse. I would rule that a spirit is always using astral perception (and why woulnd't they, they're a purely astral being) and can't see the AR display in a useful way.
As for using an additional Force dice from edge. Yes, it can. Now why would it want to? Unless it's resisting being bound into servitute by it's summoner, it really has no motivation to try THAT hard. Worst case scenario it gets disrupted and gets to go home early. They can use edge. That doesn't mean they will.
Regarding concealment. Some things are so obvious that they don't require a perception test to see. Even with concealment you still have to be sneaky.

Just remember, if that spirit decided to use its edge (force) on the test for summong it, then you'd be in a world of hurt.

Seeing a person is a Threshold 2. Still with concealment my NPCs can't cut two hits to save their butts or even get a shot in. That's without the Players using infiltration. the very thought makes me queasy.

Okay, but what about concealment? I've had special ops groups fall to my street urchin PCs. There was FBA and Ultrasound and Ares Alphas. The only thing that came of that was a slaughter and the looting of all that cool stuff. I couldn't even fool them with implanted tracers in the equipment, they caught on quick. Quick enough to get off pretty much scott free

If the spirits use edge he'll be taking 14 damage over half the time. 20 damage fully 10% of the time.
If he's abusing spirits, give him spirit bane. That's plenty of justification to use edge to resist him.
And I still don't think a spirit can use an AR display.
Does concealment work on the astral plane? I'm not sure. Security doesn't need to see them if they have a vague idea where they are plus shotguns and grenades.
Land mines don't need to see you either. Or gas. Or surpressive fire.

As far as roleplaying the reluctant spirit, it becomes much more difficult to do when the Summoner has Spirit affinity. would the spirit still be so reluctant? Not enough to help, though it is my decision in the end.

I don't believe concealment works on the astral. In fact I'm pretty certain that you can't conceal anything on the astral plane. If they make copious use of magic, have some astral defenses for your NPCs, a mage on overwatch or even a spirit. You oculd even give them a dual natured paranimal or something.

Alternatively you could use some of the FAB bacteria from SR3. the Magic eating strain 3 was always nasty.

It's always worth remembering that you don't always have to use heavily armed and armoured enemies. Automated defenses are entertaining and traps. Or be creative and have the Johnson insist on various constraints.

Does cover count as a visibility mod?

Spirit Affinity is fine. If he doesn't treat his spirits well or role play that relationship well, or if he uses his spirits stupidly, then he loses Spirit Affinity. Qualities are earned and lost through RPing. Just because he spends a couple points to start with it does not make it his god-given right to posess no matter how he acts. All spirit affinity gives him is one more step between himself and spirit bane, as far as I'm concerned.
And if he actually is RPing well and only summoning these powerful spirits for good reasons, and putting a lot of energy into maintaining a good relationship with him, then I really don't see a problem with getting a benefit out of that.

Yeah, guess I have been lax on the whole exploitation of spirits. It's just so vague straight from the rules.

And I really don't know about the whole applying visi mods to Direct spellcasting checks. Is that really how everybody else handles that?

I mean no other spellcasting check is subject to visibility modifiers, why are direct combat spells? They roll the same type of opposed tests.

----> EDIT: Ooops, I found where it says Visibility Mods count on spellcasting. Thanks for that, we've been doing that wrong....

I guess none of those Mods affect you if you're Astrally Perceiving, though, do they? Except maybe cover

True. Although with a spirit that powerful running amok Lone Star will have astral mages present in under six seconds once they find out about it, and going astral opens you up to a world of hurt.
And don't worry. Once Street Magic FINALLY comes out and they reintroduce the background count and some other magic counter-measures everything will get much better.

Regardless, I think the mechanic will be pretty predictable. I'm guessing -2 dice per point of background count, measured on the same scale as previous editions. I plan on implementing it immediately as a house rule and fixing it (if necessary) when Street Magic comes out.
Of course, this is useless for a by-the-book game. Personally, I think it should've been in the core rules if they were going to wait this long to get Street Magic out.

Well, thanks for the advice. I think I just need to RP the spirits a little better. As for concealment I haven't heard anything but make everyone awakened some how. I get players leaping down my throat when there's too many Awakened NPC around. They're just gonna have to suck it up I guess, so long as they're using spirits so heavily

But once again, any help on concealment besides astral perception would be greatly appreciated.

You don't need a guard mage for astral perception. You need one stupid watcher spirit that are farmed out by some 3rd party security company with a crappy weak summoner who does little else and is damn well paid for it.
Or more powerful spirits, aquired in the same way.
Or wards to stop the spirit from coming with you.
The thing is, in SR, magic is powerful and everyone knows that. Security is designed to take this into account. Every place has magical security. That doesn't mean they have a mage on standby, but it does mean wards, spirits, and probably an astral mage on-call. An on-call mage working for a security company can protect dozens of facilities at once, since only one actually needs him at any given time, and that's rare anyway. If he shows up and you're more than he can handle, he buggers off and calls Lone Star.

Ooo.... good point. There really haven't been enough contracted summoners. Once those dinky Watchers go down their summoner knows somethings up too.

Right, and his job is not to show up and fight to the death like an idiot, either. His job is to investigate, deal with the problem if he can, and notify someone more powerful than him if he can't.

this is just a house rule, but I like consistency so I came up with this. Notice how your attributes are maxed even with mods at x1.5 your racial max, notice how skills are capped with mods at x1.5 there rating. Well I thought it was wierd that magic gets x2 when everything else is at x1.5. While this doesn't fix the rpoblem it helps it a bit if the force of a spell and spirit are capped at x1.5 a spell slingers magic attribute. A starting mage fairly strong in magic might have a 5 magic so 7 force is his starting cap instead of 10. A force 7 spirit is still one tough mama jama but its not the out of control powerhouse a force 9 is.

Concealment is a physical power. A spirit using Concealment for six (or so) shadowrunners would glow like a prom date to any observer on the astral plane.

But how do mundane security guards deal with Concealed runners? in my experience they get wasted, quick. That's it.

By 2070, I think it's safe to expect that any moderately secure location is going to have some modicum of astral security. A ward is cheap to maintain, slows down magical threats long enough to give the physical security time to detect it, and is a good way to use that one rare magician the company hired to cover multiple sites. There's also "shiver" detection, dual-natured paracritters, biofiber ... sheesh, just go read page 256 of your hymnal; it's all in there.

After a particularly harrowing run ask them what sorts of security they have on their homes. It's been my experience that players are vastly more devious than game designers when it comes to figuring out how to protect their loot.

Actually, that's not a bad idea...

My understanding of the Concealment power is that it doesn't do much against some of the mundane detection methods. Things like pheromone sniffers, millimeter-wave radar (like what's used in cyberware scanners... common devices to install in doorways), and surveillance devices such as pressure plates and ultrasound sensors can all be used by the building's security rigger (or security program) to get pretty accurate locks on where things are. So yeah, your security guards will totally blow the Perception test to see the team... but when he's got a full mag of gel rounds, a clean backdrop, and the security rigger screaming at him to light up the red stick figures he's put on the overlay, any decently trained guard is going to shoot first and ask questions later.

Think about this for a second, folks. Magic's been around for decades longer than the vast majority of us have been alive. Every two-bit mage and his uncle have said "Oh, yeah, baby... get me some Improved Invisibility and a Spirit of Man running Conceal on me, and I can steal anything that's not superglued to a structual element." And the corporations have had just as long to figure out how to prevent this. You know all those nasty tricks that you, as a GM, don't want to use because it seems too nasty? The "rotary drum" type doors with the cyberscanners, the gas hallways, the gel-round miniguns set up for suppressive fire, the pressure plates, the laser beams, the ultrasound? The Awakened guard dogs, the astral overwatch mages, the spirits on patrol, the love beads draped in doorways? This is not "fucking with your players," this is "a reasonable response to the growing threat of magical intrusion and espionage." Any seriously hardened structure (that is, one that in modern days would have armed guards, cameras, motion detectors, and the like) is (in 2070) going to have the kinds of things that I suggested, and more, because magic poses such an incredible security problem that entire industries have grown up to counteract it.

Mid-force wards and watcher spirits are the kinds of defenses you're gonna see on a mom-and-pop store downtown that has an "astral protection" clause right next to the PANICBUTTON hookup and the cyberware scanner maintenance fee on their basic security contract. They're in place to let you know there's been a problem, and allow someone to respond, kind of like a burglar alarm. When you're putting together a security setup that's supposed to stop intrusion, not just be aware of it, you've got to plan a little differently. If your idea of anti-magical security is "one of the guards in the group is wearing ultrasound goggles," your players had better be trying to steal a car out of an upscale restaurant's garage, or something equally inane.

Competent security guards in secured areas are trained to deal with invisible or Concealed opponents because those are one of the major threats they face. They should be trained to respond to commands like "fire at the marker" because the bad people who get into these areas are often invisible. They should be trained to engage using sprayfoam, suppressive fire, or flashbangs because those allow them to somewhat effectively fight threats that they cannot actually see, and often times make it obvious where their opponents are, or at least disrupt the mage's casting and break the sustained spell. They should have magical types of their own on hand to respond in kind... you give guards guns because they might be up against people with guns, it isnt' that much of a leap that you give them magicians because they might be up against magicians.

If your Johnsons are hiring magically-talented groups to break into places that can't put up much resistance (IE, any PC who can summon a Spirit of Man can walk into the place like he owns it), they aren't going to last in the biz very long: they're overspending. Secure installations know about magical incursions, and they work very, very hard at making them impossible. Plan accordingly.

Thank you!!! That's exactly the problem I've been having! other PC's are taking seat while the wizkids duke it out for themselves.

I think the best solution to that would be to limit the things the spirits can do and/or keep very careful track of how many services the spirit owes. I've not had this problem as in SR3 summoning elementals when you were a mage was prohibitively expensive, and none of my players are awakened in the SR4 game I've been running. The players have developed a healthy hatred and suspicion of anyone that even looks like a mage now! ^^

Here's a question.

Have you been keeping to the time costs of summoning? Our magician summons spirits, but they often don't come into play right away. Consider:

Summon spirit: Complex Action
Call a spirit from the Astral Waiting Room: Simple Action
Command Spirit: Simple Action
Spirit Materialization: Complex Action

Not to mention that if you summon a spirit, it doesn't get into the fight until the next turn, depending on how you read the rules.

Let's assume that the spirit gets to act in the turn it is called. On the first initiative pass, the magician spends a simple action to call the spirit from stand-by, and it appears in the astral. She then uses a simple action to command it to beat up the bad guys. The spirit (probably) has a higher initiative than the magician, and so does not act this IP. In the second pass, the spirit spends a Complex Action to materialize, losing its third IP, and is done this turn.

If the spirit is Concealing a team, then it is already materialized; it has to be in order to use its powers on targets not on the astral plane. (Boyle et al. 176) This cuts down on the time needed to react to material things. However, one ward and it's bump-bump-grr for the spirit; the creator of the ward doesn't even need to be on-site, he can just call up the security chief when he feels something poking at his ward. Plus, an astral being (such as a projecting magician) can use the astral signature of the spirit to track its summoner down later.

first, my PC's use all the powers they could possibly need before time contraints like Complex actions an such become a problem. "What, we're on site? Ok, Concealment on the whole party (Spirit included), plus as many Movements as you can, okay Spirit?" Poof, lightning fast characters invisible to most NPCs.

Spirits Manifest (ghostly, non-physical form) right next to the Summoner when summoned or recalled. but, yeah... you're kinda right there, except we all know PC's are notoriously overprepared and cautious. That Spirit is already Materialized most of the time.

Most Spirits we deal with can slip through wards no prob (It's Force x2 vs. Force x2). Plus just slipping through a barrier or even poking/ prodding it won't alert a magician. only attacking a barrier will. (pg. 185)