 Possession FAQ, Answers to your possession questions |
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 Oct 17 2007, 02:41 AM
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#101
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869  |
I'm glad others saw the rules the same way I did. If Frank hadn't said the other interpretation was how the authors actually intended it since the beginning, I would never have believed it. After playing SR4 for 4 months now, I shouldn't be shocked at poor craftsmanship, but this takes the cake. |
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Oct 17 2007, 02:48 AM
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#102
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Not all Armor stacks. I believe that in each instance where Armor does stack, it is specifically mentioned as doing so. |
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Oct 17 2007, 02:52 AM
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#103
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
if you want to claim that the rules for immunity to normal weapons referencing hardened armor and referring to armor all over the places is *not* referring to the normal armor rules, then what you're arguing is that ItNW does *something*, but we don't have a fragging clue what that is.
[sarcasm] oh boy, there's a great improvement on the situation that just makes the rules so very clear. [/sarcasm] as far as whether ItNW stacks or doesn't, i would point out that not all armor stacks. no specific ruling is given on whether or not ItNW stacks with other armor, and the general rule is that multiple layers of armor do not stack (see the rules for multiple suits of armor, for example). certainly, it *could* stack, but like i said, that just opens too many cans of worms imo: if an attack is reduced to 4P after passing through the external layer of worn armor, then shouldn't the hardened armor underneath be checking against that 4P rather than the original value, whatever it was? where do we factor in mystic armor, armor in cyberlimbs, dermal plating, troll's natural armor, and other similar things? logically, worn armor would apply first, since it's external, and if an attack that was going to do 4P normally wouldn't penetrate the hardened armor, why should an attack that's only going to do 4P after being reduced by someone's worn armor? imo, it just simplifies things and removes a lot of questions if you just rule that it doesn't stack at all. |
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Oct 17 2007, 02:52 AM
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#104
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Cyberlimb armor doesn't say it stacks, but Synner insists that it not only stacks with body armor, but it also stacks with itself. 2 cyberlimbs each with 3 armor gives you +6 armor over and above what your armor jacket gives you. |
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Oct 17 2007, 02:59 AM
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#105
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
<duplicate post. sorry. so, uh, I'll just agree with what I said.>
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Oct 17 2007, 03:02 AM
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#106
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yep, that is one example where it wasn't specifically listed as stacking. Note that that misconception was cleared up rather quickly by Synner though.
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Oct 17 2007, 03:14 AM
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#107
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
I'm glad you agree with me that you were wrong about no armor stacks unless specifically saying so. :D "Cleared up rather quickly by Synner" -- ROFL. How many YEARS has it been since the book was published and the errata still doesn't list that clarification? |
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Oct 17 2007, 03:18 AM
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#108
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I did state that 'I believe' it was the case. The fact that you successfully found one, quickly clarified example where it wasn't the case doesn't mean you are right about Hardened Armor stacking.
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Oct 17 2007, 07:20 AM
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#109
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
That's my actual name. And on AP: The game does not distinguish between weaponry which has higher AP because it is "sharper" or "denser", or "faster" or just "hitting harder". Weapon AP is built into the weapon damage codes and is a game balance concern more than a "realism" concern. In the world of Shadowrun, there have been spirits running around in plain view for nearly 60 years - that's as long as the AK-47 has been around. Does it strike as in any way weird that whatever it is that 21st century weaponsmiths do takes spiritual defenses into account? Various editions have tried various restrictions on what did and did not have an effect when you put ammunition into your gun. In first edition you didn't change weapon power, but you did change staging so everyone used Explosive ammo. In 2nd edition you didn't change power but you did change damage code so you used Flechette. In 3rd edition you were basically looking at the target dropping your power down to about 2 anyway, so you were mostly concerned about getting lots of hits (thus meaning that you actually used tracers, oddly enough). And now in 4th edition you apply all the mods and the primary concern is the Armor, so you use APDS. None of these is really "bad design", but based on the huge power-up that ItNW got in 4th edition it would be a bad idea from a game balance standpoint to push people back to using Explosives or Flechettes like in previous editions. As for combining Hardened and normal Armor: At no time do armors reduce incoming power. They give you extra damage resistance dice. If you have 8 points of Hardened Armor and 8 points of regular armor and are hit by a 9P attack, then the Hardened armor does not completely stop the attack, and the regular Armor does not downgrade the attack from lethal to stun. But both give you +8 dice to your damage resistance test, which is a lot. Also, AP applies towards each set of Armor/Hardened Armor separately as per the rules, reducing both the DV that they have a special effect against and the amount of bonus damage resistance dice they add. -Frank |
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Oct 17 2007, 02:07 PM
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#110
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
That's an awesome idea. Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot ammo doesn't have to be made out of merely mundane armor piercing materials like steel jackets. It could be made out of alchemically purified radical depleted uranium (I call it "Munchkinbanium") which not only gives it armor piercing qualities towards body armor but also against Immunity to Normal Weapons paracritters like spirits and vampires. I added both points to 10a and 10b. |
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Oct 17 2007, 03:20 PM
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#111
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
I guess that means you need to make sure your fixer is actually selling you Munchkinium* rounds rather than Ye ol' Lead Bullets.
*Sounds better than Munchkinbanium, IMO I can buy into the idea that weaponsmiths were making efforts to make bullets more effective vs Spirits, but... Doesn't that fly in the face of the fact that items without an aura or things they are specifically vulnerable to (fire vs water) are supposed to be trivial to the spirit? Heck, they even allude to that in the Cyberzombie section of Augmentation. This also ties into the utter lack of success in creating a magical ranged weapon; that all magical weapons only stayed active while in the hands of their wielders. |
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Oct 17 2007, 03:24 PM
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#112
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Although, this would make ammo prices make more sense. ;-)
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Oct 18 2007, 04:39 PM
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#113
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
A bit OT, but the munchkin player in my group suggested a 'magical taser' - the kind with wires still running from target to user. Any absolute (as opposed to 'the tech makes it harder') reason why this can't be made into a weapon focus? |
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Oct 18 2007, 05:03 PM
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#114
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'd say you could. Treat like a whip. (Str/2)+1P 149 for the whip stats.
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Oct 18 2007, 05:19 PM
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#115
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Heh. I remember that section well, I wrote it. ;) That was to underscore a point in Shadowrun about how magical items work. Barring the (now defunct) Spell Lock, no magic item has been able to be "active" when it ceases touching the aura of a bonded owner. But while that keeps you from firing dual natured arrows, that doesn't keep you from harming a spirit who is materialised or is possessing something. Nor in fact, does it keep you from affecting the Astral or its inhabitants. If you dump a bunch of uranium on the ground, you'll punch up the background count and that will seriously kill low force spirits. Back in the old editions, Immunity to Normal Weapons specifically only counted half strength against weapons which were "elemental" in nature. And while that brought up big arguments about whether an inanimate carbon rod counted as an element or not - it did establish clearly that in canon there are attacks which are simply less concerned about ItNW than others. In 4th edition that text has been dropped, but "elemental damage" halves armor across the board so that's basically still on the table. -Frank |
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Oct 18 2007, 06:01 PM
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#116
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Does anyone have a page number for that, I'll add it to #10 under shock weapons? |
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Oct 18 2007, 07:05 PM
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#117
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
What part of the rules is vague on this? 335, sr4, Cyberlimb Enhancements, "The bonus to the enhanced value equals the rating of the enhancement." 149, sr4, Armor and Encumbrance, "Note that some armor items, like helmets and shields, provide a modifier to the worn armor rating and so do not count as stacked armor." Cyberlimb armor provides a modifier to armor equal to the rating of its enhancement. I still fail to see where this is ambiguous. |
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Oct 18 2007, 11:34 PM
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#118
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
If you look in Street Magic and the SR4 core book at the various elemental damage effects you will see that pretty much all of them are AP -half. Not all of them of course, there is one with the effect as flechettes for instance, so it has identical power and ap mods. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:11 AM
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#119
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 17-October 07 Member No.: 13,735 |
I am setting up a new shadowrun game and am working in a few npcs. One such NPC is a voodoo priest / cab driver with a possessed cab. As seen in many many 70's and 80's cheezy movies.. hehe.
In Street Magic in the Possession Side bar on page 102 it refers to spirits possessing inanimate objects. In the case of the vehicle is says the force of the spirit be added to the vehicle's Body, Armor and Speed - though not it's Handling. My question is really twofold. If the force is being added to the Armor, does the vehicle also gain the benefit of the INW? Since it is an inherent power of the spirit? It says a posessed SAAB fury could drive itself. How is this handled in game terms? A person doesnt have to make a skill check to run around. But, since the spirit is in a vehicle. What kinda check should be made to "handle" tight manuevers? Not pilot, since the spirit isnt actually piloting, but just moving. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:17 AM
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#120
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Vehicle Armor is Hardened Armor, which is effectively the exact same thing as ItNW. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:36 AM
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#121
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 17-October 07 Member No.: 13,735 |
I read through the thread and didnt see this following issue addressed.
Channeling + Possession + Long term binding.... Other then the Initate going bugnuts insane from having the spirit nag at him night and day about being longterm bound. Is there any game reason why this wouldnt work. I have freaky players that try strange stuff like this and wanted to get other opinions. Oh. Another quick question. I saw this asked, but couldnt find an answer. When a person is possessed by a spirit. Can the force of the spirit push his stats over the augmented max? |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:43 AM
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#122
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, vehicle armor is normal armor. it's just a quirk of the fact that vehicles have no stun track that the end result is the same as it would be if the vehicle had hardened armor, provided the vehicle is being attacked with a weapon that deals P damage. a weapon that deals S damage will never harm a vehicle, no matter what the DV, whereas a spirit can be affected. as far as long-term binding a channeled spirit... sure. ten seconds later, you run into a ward, the spirit is disrupted, security is alerted, and you've just lost a bunch. boy, that sure was worth it. also, when a spirit possesses someone, the augmented max of the combined being is, iirc, (attribute + spirit's force) * 1.5 so that will definitely be able to go higher than the original metahuman's augmented max, and probably the spirit's too. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:44 AM
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#123
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
General guideline is one service every dawn and dusk.
Augmented max while possessed is Current + Force X 1.5 So the only way to hit the cap is through invoking and making the spirits stats go up a ton. Chris EDIT: Bah, scooped by 1 minute. |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:59 AM
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#124
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Hence the word 'effectively', although I put it in the wrong place. ;) :D But you are correct. :) |
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Oct 19 2007, 02:59 AM
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#125
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 17-October 07 Member No.: 13,735 |
Thanks alot for the quick answers about vehicle armor, augmented stats and longerm binding.
So, anyone wanna take a crack at the possessed cab driving itself? hehe |
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