 Possession FAQ, Answers to your possession questions |
  |
 Jan 21 2008, 02:17 PM
Post
#176
|
|||||||
|
Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300  |
As for the english, in my language there is really no difference between being mistaken (not offensive?) and failing (offensive?). I thought the word fail (in norwegian "feile") was synonoumous with be mistaken. And you didn't highlight the quote I was referring too, although you did quote it: "The standard threshold is 1 (so only 1 hit is necessary to succeed" Notice they say "hit", not "net hit" and so doesen't contradict anything further on. A character who rolls 4 hits against threshold 2 has scored two NET hits. If he only rolled 2 hits he would have no net hits but the test would still (barely) succeed: Example: First aid requires threshold 2 to stabilize, but net hits are needed to actually heal damage. Since it specifically says you need net hits to heal damage, a simple success is useless unless stabilizing or using first aid for improving a condition (GM decides). Oh and I think we should try to avoid the 3rd ed. term "successes" and rather call them "hits" or it will be confusing. The concept of net hits did not exist in earlier editions I believe. |
||||||
 |
 
|
||||||
|
Jan 21 2008, 08:47 PM
Post
#177
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
My whole point is that it is clumsy.
Let's take your First Aid example. With 4 'hits' (dice that meet or exceed the target number), I would have 3 'successes' ('hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), but 2 'net hits' ('hits' that exceed (only) the Threshold). You can't really avoid the term 'successes' (or another similar term), because in this case it has a totally distinct meaning from either 'hits' or 'net hits'. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 21 2008, 11:02 PM
Post
#178
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Ok, so you just don't like the rules? I have never used the term "successes" while playing SR 4 because it is not necessary. Success is either/or in SR 4. If the threshold is 2, one hit is not a success, but it is a "hit" (relevant for determining glitches). 3 hits vs threshold 2 means you have 3 hits and 1 net hit, in other words a success. In my first aid example I don't see why you say you have 3 "successes" - how many net hits is relevant, or if you succeeded at all (in case of stabilization, possibly preventing infection etc.) What is the point of counting anything but net hits in this case? How is this clumsy? The only thing success means in this game is wether you succeed in a task(s) or not, it is not another word for "how many dice meet the target number" as it was in previous editions. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 21 2008, 11:46 PM
Post
#179
|
|||||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Funny! I never said that. I didn't even come close to implying it. Your English is not that bad! I said the wording was strange. Numerous times! And gave numerous examples of what I meant.
And here is where you are not following what I am saying. The rules state that any dice that rolls a 5 or more is a hit. In the case of tests with Thresholds, your 'hits' must "meet or exceed" that Threshold. That means that with a threshold of 2, only the first 'hit' does not count as being successful. The second 'hit' would 'meet' the Threshold, and therefore would be considered successful. In the case of your First Aid example, if the character only got 2 'hits' on his test, he would heal 1 box of damage, having fulfilled the requirement to 'meet' the Threshold of 2. But he doesn't have any 'net hits', according to the wording of the rules. Any 'net hits' are counted after the Threshold has been reached. If the character got 4 'hits' on the same test as above, he would heal 3 boxes, as he 'meets' the Threshold with his second 'hit', and exceeds that Threshold with his third and fourth 'hits' (or two 'net hits'). The wording is clumsy! That is what I am saying. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 22 2008, 12:04 AM
Post
#180
|
|||||||||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So you have reversed your stance since this conversation started then? This is how it originated ...
By your original logic (which was totally correct according to canon), 1 'hit' on a Threshold 1 test is a success. Therefore 2 'hits' on a Threshold 2 test means a single success. Do you disagree? (It seems that you both agree and disagree by the two separate posts) I freely admit I was mistaken about the Threshold-to-success ratio, and that you were correct. My whole problem stems from the use of the wording 'net hits', when that phrase technically means 'successes -1' in this context. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Jan 22 2008, 02:48 AM
Post
#181
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Ok so the wording is strange and clumsy, but you still like it? Ok now I'm confused LOL! :D No offense, but I think your wording with "successes" is strange. On threshold 2 tests, a single hit does not mean the test is successful. A second hit would make the test successful, but there are still no NET hits. A "hit" cannot be considered successful/nonsuccessful, but the test as a whole may. In the first aid example, it clearly states you can heal an amount equal to NET hits. Thus two hits makes the test successful, but possibly useless. I think this is the only skill in the book where actually succeeding the test may be pointless unless you get 1 net hit or more. This is pretty much the exception that proves the rule :) 2 hits on a threshold 2 test doesen't transate in "one success", but merely success. Net hits doesen't mean "successes -1", it means "hits exceeding the threshold." Net hits means the same for first aid, spellcasting, or even opposed checks such as combat. As for first aid, it goes down like this: Player: Rolls first aid. "Ok I got 2 hits that means I met the threshold" GM: "Ok, then you succeed. Now you can heal 1 box of damage per net hit" Player: Erhh, I got no net hits at all. GM: Tough luck. Player: So I just wasted my time? I got nothing? GM: Not exactly. Since you succeeded you get to diagnose the character, know the extent of wounds taken, or perhaps the effects of other ailments. Gm: Ok, since you got not net hits I can only tell you damage taken and that you're poisoned. Well that's how it might go down. For your last point, net hits doesen't mean "successes -1", but for a threshold 1 test it could mean "hits -1" And just to clarify I haven't changed my stance, when I said "in other words a success" I was referring to the test as a whole, not the net hit in itself. Any test with net hit(s) is necessarily a successful test. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 22 2008, 02:48 AM
Post
#182
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,269 Joined: 18-September 06 Member No.: 9,421 |
Well then, I've been playing the game wrong. Does this apply to opposed tests as well?
The only thing this will really change in my is first aid. Chris |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 02:55 AM
Post
#183
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I suppose you're talking about threshold 1=1 hit needed, right? Opposed tests work differently, as they don't have threshold per see. In order for 1 to win a test (be successful) you need 1 net hit. In the event of a tie, the defender usually comes out first. For example a yakuza slashing at some fool with a katana needs 1 net hit to actually deal damage. If both has x hits (x being more than 0), the attack connects but does not cause any real damage - in other words a glancing blow. At a GM's discretion, this may be enough to discharge a taser or stun baton, or even deliver poison from the weapon/creature attacking. How will you change your first aid? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 22 2008, 04:09 AM
Post
#184
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm not going to bother quoting any more. You just keep taking everything I say out of context, or deliberately put words into my mouth that I didn't say (write).
I don't quite get how you can consider a test a success, and yet have no beneficial results from that successful test, as you seem to think 2 'hits' on a First Aid test would give you. That is just plain dumb! The text at the beginning of the Threshold section describes a successful test as 'meeting or exceeding' the Threshold. In my opinion, the text that describes 'net hits' in that same section is wrong (it should, in my opinion, describe 'net hits' as any 'hits' that meet or exceed the Threshold), and that it should coincide with the earlier text describing the requirements for a successful Threshold test. If we play it your way, the every basic test (Threshold 1) would require 2 'hits' to actually accomplish anything. Getting only 1 'hit' would result in a successful test though. There would just be no results. That's not even close to logical, in my opinion. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 04:41 AM
Post
#185
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Right back at ya... As I'm trying to say, First Aid has special rules. As far as I know there is no threshold 1 test that also requires net hits to be effective, so that's not playing it "my way." You could say the first aid skill rules are dumb, but I'm not sure how they should write it... They could inrease the threshold to 3 and then say you heal 1 box of damage+1 per net hit but it's just as easy for me to count every net hit above threshold 2 to heal damage. And besides, if you use threshold 3 for stabilization etc. it makes it very difficult. And as I tried to say, 2 hits are not always useless, for stabilization it is necessary, and in that case net hits are irrelevant. So do I understand you right that you want all the hits equal to and exceeding the threshold to count as net hits? So if you get 3 hits on a threshold 1 test you actually got 3 net hits as well? I don't understand how this is simpler than net hits=total hits - threshold. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 22 2008, 04:55 AM
Post
#186
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yes, I want all 'hits' that are accounted as successes to be labeled 'net hits'. How is that not simpler that Total Hits - Threshold?
Or I want the First Aid rules to match up with every other Threshold test. :D |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 07:18 AM
Post
#187
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Ok, at least I think I understand what you're saying now, even if I don't agree your way is simpler. In any case, my way has worked just fined at our table, and we'll continue to use the rules as is here. You're free to do whatever you want in your game, and lets leave it at that :)
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 04:54 PM
Post
#188
|
|||||
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I'll weigh in here real quick. First, fortune, you missed the most important part in your quote...
I've put it in orange. As for now, I'm trying to think of how you would resolve a threshold 0 test. My inclination, is that the character makes a test, and as long as they don't critically glitch, they succeed. Why? Because to succeed at the test, they need at least 0 hits. So long as they don't critically glitch (and thusly fail spetactularly) they have met the threshold, and succeed said test. (If they did get some hits though, all those hits would be net hits, as they would all be over the threshold, and would represent the character having performed exceedingly well). Now thats done with, lets move on to first aid. I do agree that it seems a bit wrong that you can succeed your first aid test (2 hits) and yet, not have anything done. (FriendoftheDork your example is wrong, as it is a different use to heal than it is to diagnose. Additionally diagnosing is a threshold GM determined depending on how hard it is to notice the wounds/ailments). Thusly, you can make your test, succeed with 2 hits, and not have anything happen as a result. I think thats utterly stupid. Especially since the heal spell has no such restriction, and heals boxes equal to hits on its test. All in all, I'd say that the first aid rules are where the problem lies, not with the hits/net hits/success tests. Fortune, net hits are rarely used on success tests. First aid is a rare example of them. Going back to the rules quote, I've colored in this part in cyan. All net hits mean in terms of success tests is that you did it better. Whether you get 1 hit or 10 hits on a threshold 1 test, you've succeeded, but the guy who got the 10 hits has done so extremely well. Other than first aid, I can't think of any mechanics use of net hits with a success test. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 22 2008, 05:49 PM
Post
#189
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I tried to find another example other than First Aid as well without success. I am inclined to believe that the First Aid description is wrong, and that it should read like any other Threshold test.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 06:48 PM
Post
#190
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
I have question related to the original thread.
can a mage with channeling use the skills of a spirit in place of his own. and can he use his own skills as well. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 22 2008, 07:00 PM
Post
#191
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
a mage with channelling can use his own skills while channelling, or the spirit's skills while possessed but not channelling, but not both at any given time. as far as whether you can switch back and forth between channelling and not, i'm not entirely sure to be honest =P
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 23 2008, 12:38 AM
Post
#192
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
Hmm, I think I like that interpretation. Sometimes not glitching is work in itself ;) Especially for those test with few dice and lots of penalties. And this way you CAN fail a threshold 0 test automatically if the penalties are equal to or higher than your dice pool. As for first aid, I was trying to find some excuse for the designers to word it that way :) Some diagnosis could be as low threshold as 2, but as it says the GM sets the threshold when the skill is used for other things than healing. Still, I think the skill is well balanced. First aid is not supposed to be as good as magical healing, and instantly heal debilitating wounds (instantly as in 1-12 turns). It's supposed to help stabilize dying, and lessen the effect of wounds. Combined with magical healing it's very effective though, and because of good gear it's not unusal to get 6-7 total hits. It's probably better to increase threshold to 3 and let it heal 1 box of damage as default, with net hits healing more boxes. But I would still leave stabilization at threshold 2. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 23 2008, 01:00 AM
Post
#193
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 236 Joined: 17-October 07 Member No.: 13,735 |
Still no one wants to take a stab at my pondering? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 23 2008, 01:11 AM
Post
#194
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Well, at least one person responded earlier. You must have missed it in all the excitement.
|
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 23 2008, 01:29 AM
Post
#195
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-November 07 Member No.: 14,124 |
Thanks FriendoftheDork for answers. It's pretty much what I thought, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't over abusing.
I'll give my 2¥ here for what's it worth. But I'm no authority and encourage anyone else to correct me What is the movement rate of a spirit that possessed a vessel? A.) The vessels movement rate or spirits movement rate But, what if it is a vessel that doesn't have it's own movement rate, but is capable of moving. For instance a possessed grocery cart or manikin? Or the reference to the spirit of the possessed car just rolling the wheels to save on gas. Does the car use the movement rate of the spirit? A.) Vessels with their own movement rate use that. Vessels without use the spirits. In the case of saving gas, sure use the spirits. If they use do the movement rate of the spirit, 'which' movement rate do they use? For instance. A possession tradition air spirit. I assume the vessel doesn't fly, unless it has the ability as part of it's basic form. But, it if doesn't fly, does it use the 15/75 movement of the air spirit in ground movement? A.) This one kind of depends on how you see flight. Is it a skill or a power. If it is is a Power, a spirit would be able to use that power. As your example an Air Spirit possessing a item/vehicle. I may impose a force * ?kg restriction on weight. If it's an ability (or possibly power, I think I remember Franks posting about another power that wasn't applicable to possession, I believe it was reach), the spirit would be more capable of flying the vehicle with the skill and would be able to "glide" to conserve fuel. Would really like someone else's opinion on that. And what about possession Water Spirits? If a magician has his force 6 water spirit possess him and since he can swim, does he get the 30/75 swim movement rate of the possessing water spirit? And combining that with the using Guard (to keep from drowning) and the Movement power, he is gonna be blowing away previous water speed records... A.) I don't see why not. In fact should be able to bring the runners entire team. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 23 2008, 01:49 AM
Post
#196
|
|
|
Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
Another take(RAW, as it happens to be): Being possessed does not change the movement capability of the item. Any possible movement rate is increased by the spirits force, as with all applicable attributes. The movement capabilities of the spirit do not concern, only its force and powers. All powers are listed as such.
A possessed grocery cart can suddenly roll along at (force)meters/turn, an Eurocar Westwinds max. speed is increased by (force), as is its acceleration. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 23 2008, 02:07 AM
Post
#197
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 21 Joined: 10-November 07 Member No.: 14,124 |
Much better answer Ryu. I was only taking a stab.
Was it ever decided what skill a spirit would roll for accident avoidance (i.e. drive). I suppose it's possible to teach a bound/ally spirit pilot *craft, but is that the only way? |
|
|
|
|
Jan 23 2008, 02:43 AM
Post
#198
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,288 Joined: 4-September 06 From: The Scandinavian Federation Member No.: 9,300 |
I like this take too, good idea :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Oct 23 2008, 04:56 PM
Post
#199
|
|
|
Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,087 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Forgive me if I missed this somewhere in the 8 pages, but the FAQ at the top doesn't address this question.
Is it possible for a spirit to possess a mechanical device implanted in a person, but not the person himself? Say, for example, a cyber-arm. I can foresee a difficulty in trying to possess something implanted and totally encased by the person, such as an artificial heart, as the spirit would have to pass through the living being to get at the device. Ooohhhh... but what if the spirit had possessed the device once before it had been implanted? Then, along the lines of a spirit materializing inside a ward because it had been there before, maybe the possession could go straight to the device. Oooooohhhh please-please-please! I see both silly/fun opportunities here, as well as stealth/tricky ones. A cyber arm could grab a hold of a railing, and not let go. An artificial heart could stop at just the right moment, such as driving around a corner on a cliffside. Peter |
|
|
|
|
Oct 23 2008, 05:03 PM
Post
#200
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, it isn't. Cyberarms are paid for with essence and become part of said person.
Now... if you had a spare cyberhand in your skin pocket... then yes, it could just fine. As far as actually getting to it, astral forms can pass through people just fine. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 29th January 2025 - 08:17 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.