Shapechange Question Options

[Mordinvan]

Actually that's where it's stated.


What exactly does that do for you? Oh right, you check the critter's stat block for physical attributes only.

nice insertion of the word ONLY there. I really like your creative editing of the text. [edit]

[X-Kalibur]

I think you're misinterpreting a statement.

Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character's record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 4.

There are 3 seperate statements here.

1: Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions in each Combat Turn.

2: These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the characer's record sheet

3: The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 4.

From those seperate statements we can infer that some spells may give you extra IPs, and that when you have additional IPs they are to be marked on your character sheet, and you may not possess more than 4 IP (barring source material for hackers and technos to reach 5 in the matrix). Nowhere does it explicitly state, as you like to point out as RAW, that it MUST say it increases your IP in the description.

I can play with the language too. It's not very hard.

[sabs]

Btw, in SR4A they changed the max IPs
It's really creepy wording:

Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.

[X-Kalibur]

Btw, in SR4A they changed the max IPs
It's really creepy wording:

Well yeah, the only way to get 5 involves being hot-simmed. Who wants some dumpshock?

[sabs]

Free spirit inhabiting a great cat with move by wire 3 = 5ip in the meat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Traul]

I can only think of drugs to get to 5 physical IP: Cram + Jazz + Kamikaze + K10. By this wording, it would be allowed?

[Yerameyahu]

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. (Ignoring the trouble of surviving that, haha.)

Ditto for the inhabited cat; I'm fine with 4 being the absolute max meat IPs. Bloody possession rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[sabs]

I'm pretty sure that doesn't work. (Ignoring the trouble of surviving that, haha.)

Ditto for the inhabited cat; I'm fine with 4 being the absolute max meat IPs. Bloody possession rules. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I'm fine with it too, but the wording on the sr4a implies the max is 5, just that's hard to get to.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that's terrible wording. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

I'm fine with it too, but the wording on the sr4a implies the max is 5, just that's hard to get to.

No, not really. 5 is the max only for the explicitly stated areas. Those areas are Hackers who hot sim with the simsense accelerator (Unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs) and the simsense booster (Augmentation, pushes you to 3 cold, 4 hot); and Technomancers who submerge and take Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking (unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs).

[sabs]

No, not really. 5 is the max only for the explicitly stated areas. Those areas are Hackers who hot sim with the simsense accelerator (Unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs) and the simsense booster (Augmentation, pushes you to 3 cold, 4 hot); and Technomancers who submerge and take Overclocking and Advanced Overclocking (unwired, states it can push you to 5 IPs).

That in no way is supported by the text I quoted from the SR4A.

it doesn't say.. Max is 4, except for some special circumstances.

it says:

max is 5, but most folks will only get to 4.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, reading that sentence alone creates a messy confusion. Let's ignore it and remember that we all know 4 is the max for meat-IPs. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Tell you what sabs. Find me an example of someone legitimately getting 5 meat IPs and I will readily admit I am wrong. Even the improve reflexes spell will cap you at 4 (and really, if magic can't get you there, nothing can). The 5 work in Hot-VR because you can naturally react faster there anyway.

[Neraph]

nice insertion of the word ONLY there. I really like your creative editing of the text. [edit]

Well see, I didn't quote the text now did I? Nice straw man setup there.

Here's how this whole argument is summed up:

1) The general consensus shows that the topic sentence of "transforms into critter" means that you automatically gain all abilities and special rules of the critter in question, including ability to fly, walk, run, use Powers (such as Natural Weapons and Venom), and access to extra Initiative Passes if the animal in question has any.

2) The line "transforms into critter" is later defined as referring to the critter's stat block for physical attributes. So in this case you would take the physical attributes only of the critter, increased by successes as per the spell, and ignore the whole rest of the critter's Special Attributes (where Initiative Passes are located), Mental Stats, Movement, and even Powers. The FAQ (which, for some reason, people here seem to be violently opposed to and biased against) then goes on to say you also gain the Powers of the critter, but still no mention of extra Initiative Passes gained from the critter.

You guys can drag your heels and call me names all you want, what it boils down to is the line "transforms into" has no real game effect at all. It is a description of the spell, and the rules for the change that is described is a reference to the stat block of the animal to calculate your physical attributes while you are in that form. There is simply no mention of all (and that means you are not allowed to) of also referencing Special Attributes or anything else from said animal.

I would appreciate it if you would stop making inflammatory statements about myself. Simply because you and I disagree on the purpose of a single sentence from one paragraph of a game of Make-Believe is a poor basis to call people names.

[Mäx]

2) The line "transforms into critter" is later defined as referring to the critter's stat block for physical attributes. So in this case you would take the physical attributes only of the critter, increased by successes as per the spell, and ignore the whole rest of the critter's Special Attributes (where Initiative Passes are located), Mental Stats, Movement, and even Powers. The FAQ (which, for some reason, people here seem to be violently opposed to and biased against) then goes on to say you also gain the Powers of the critter, but still no mention of extra Initiative Passes gained from the critter.

No, it later in the spells rules say that you also increase the critter forms physical attributess by the succeses scored, there's absolutely nothing suggesting that you ingnore the rest of the stat line, you just dont get any improvements, on those other parts of the stat line,over a normal critter of that type.

[IcyCool]

Don't know if it's worth mentioning or not, but in 3rd edition, the Shapechange spell did specify that you don't gain the new form's extra initiative dice.

[Mordinvan]

You guys can drag your heels and call me names all you want, what it boils down to is the line "transforms into" has no real game effect at all. It is a description of the spell, and the rules for the change that is described is a reference to the stat block of the animal to calculate your physical attributes while you are in that form. There is simply no mention of all (and that means you are not allowed to) of also referencing Special Attributes or anything else from said animal.

If by drag our heels, you mean to stall and waste time, I agree with you fully, continuing to discuss this with you is a complete waste of my time.

[Neraph]

No, it later in the spells rules say that you also increase the critter forms physical attributess by the succeses scored, there's absolutely nothing suggesting that you ingnore the rest of the stat line, you just dont get any improvements, on those other parts of the stat line,over a normal critter of that type.

There's also absolutely nothing suggesting that you do in fact get the extra Initiative Passes, especially considering that when Initiative Passes are first mentioned it says you will be told when you get more Initiative Passes, and Shapechange does not tell you you get new Initiative Passes.

1) The general consensus shows that the topic sentence of "transforms into critter" means that you automatically gain all abilities and special rules of the critter in question, including ability to fly, walk, run, use Powers (such as Natural Weapons and Venom), and access to extra Initiative Passes if the animal in question has any.

2) The line "transforms into critter" is later defined as referring to the critter's stat block for physical attributes. So in this case you would take the physical attributes only of the critter, increased by successes as per the spell, and ignore the whole rest of the critter's Special Attributes (where Initiative Passes are located), Mental Stats, Movement, and even Powers. The FAQ (which, for some reason, people here seem to be violently opposed to and biased against) then goes on to say you also gain the Powers of the critter, but still no mention of extra Initiative Passes gained from the critter.

This will be a circular argument where many people will claim #1 and I will claim #2. For ease of everyone's mind, please read point #1, then read point #2, then repeat the proccess for a few hours.

[Lansdren]

I look forward to a dev answer on the subject for nothing else but a end to the crowing

[Badmoodguy88]

The extra initiative phase of normal shape changers (not the spell) does not stack with anything, magic or cyber. I had a thought that because spirits have 3 phases naturally that if you cast increase reflexes on them that it would work but the spell specifically prohibits this.

Increase Reflexes
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2
This spell increases the reflexes (Initiative and Initiative Passes) of
a voluntary subject. Each level of increase adds +1 Initiative and +1
Initiative Pass. The caster must achieve a certain threshold for each level:
Threshold 2: +1 Initiative, + 1 Initiative Pass
Threshold 3: +2 Initiative, + 2 Initiative Passes
Threshold 4 (max.): +3 Initiative, + 3 Initiative Passes
A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell

A spirit possessing someone with the adept power Improved Reflexes might have 5 initiative phases if you count the spirit's 3 initiative phases as natural and not an increase. It is the spirit using the adepts Improved Reflexes and not the adept using the spirit to boost his initiative phase.

Improved Reflexes
Cost: Variable, see below
This power increases the speed at which you react, just like wired
reflexes. For each level, you receive +1 die to Reaction (this also affects
Initiative) and 1 extra Initiative Pass. The maximum rating of
Improved Reflexes is 3, and the increase cannot be combined with
technological or other magical increases to Initiative.

I don't really care which way is RAW. That is just what I could come up with as a possible way to get 5 ip in the meat.
It probably does work by RAW but only because of an oversight.

[Mäx]

A spirit possessing someone with the adept power Improved Reflexes might have 5 initiative phases if you count the spirit's 3 initiative phases as natural and not an increase. It is the spirit using the adepts Improved Reflexes and not the adept using the spirit to boost his initiative phase.

What on earth gives you the impression that possessing spirit gets the benefits of the host adepts powers. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Badmoodguy88]

Well I don't think the adepts powers stop working. There is also nothing about them not being able to use adept powers that must be activated.

I know saying that it does not say you can't do it is a little flimsy as an argument but I am basing this on a section of text specifically laying out what you could not do wile possessing a living vessel.

I figured that because even with channeling the spirit is still the one behind the wheel that it meant that it worked sort of like possessing someone with other powers like themographic vision, mist form, or other critter powers. The possessed living vessel uses the spirits special attributes, in this case magic. So when possessing a hell hound and using its elemental attack it would have damage based on the spirits magic not the hell hound's magic of 4. Because of that I figured it was like the spirit gained the power wile possessing just like the adept gains any number of spirit powers wile being possessed.

[Yerameyahu]

Incidentally, Spirits only have 3 IPs in the Astral, I thought?

It is dependent on whether or not the spirit can use the host's powers, but this might be relevant:

While possessed, the spirit’s Mental and Special attributes are used (which means that a possessed technomancer cannot access Resonance), with Initiative recalculated as normal (use the spirit’s normal Initiative Passes).

What counts as 'physical' in this sentence?

The spirit is in full physical control of the vessel, but does not have access to the host’s knowledge, skills, or experience.

I dunno if that really implies access to powers.

[Neraph]

You never stack Initiative Passes from different sources (unless you're in the Matrix, apparently). In all cases you take the highest.

Also, with Spirits: When they possess someone their Special Attributes (Force, Edge) overwrite those of their subject. Technomancers cannot use their Resonance, as stated, and by logical deduction a Possessing spirit couldn't use a Mage's spells either. That would mean they also wouldn't have access to an Adept's Powers.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that makes sense to me.