Shapechange Question Options

[yesferatu]

Neraph,
I'm only here to make sure I can explain game rules as I understand them to my players.
I think it's helpful to discuss a number of interpretations.
We have a natural tendency to demonize people with differing opinions, especially on the intertubes.

I think you have a point.
The rule isn't clear and I'm glad someone will take the heat for pointing it out.
I'm still not sure I could tell a player why they don't get tracking or enhanced senses every time they shift forms.
I'm looking for certainty on this spell and I still don't have it.

You can talk all the crap about Neraph you want, but it doesn't change the fact that 1 paragraph doesn't cover the basic game mechanics of this spell.

[Neraph]

Thank you.

[Yerameyahu]

Enhanced Senses is okay, because it's (almost always) a purely physical ability. Burnout awakened critters specifically retain their Enhanced Senses (nonmagical, of course).

[Badmoodguy88]

I think adept powers work a bit differently than spells. Spells are much more a skill than something like the improve attribute adept power. I guess I sort of picture adept powers to be sort of like quickened spells but tied into the core of an adepts being so that is is a part of them and not I have learned the trick to running on water or healing faster.

If the adept were forced to astrally project by use of an astral gate or that magic drug, the adept could not use their powers in astral but they would still take their powers with them probably. But the GM might rule differently. If a adept is in the meta planes he can use his adept powers, but does the body back in the real world still benefit from things like mystic armor, cloak, and metabolic control?

There just are not rules to cover some of this stuff which makes it frustrating.

[Yerameyahu]

Yes, but that's even a separate question versus possession, because they're *his* powers. It is certainly frustrating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The simplest answer is 'no'. If you ever think something is too good to be true, it isn't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) If the choice is between allowing Pun-Pun and *not*, just don't. Easy.

[Neraph]

As an aside about Shapechange, due to the FAQ allowing (Human) Form, this has new and exciting possibilities (that I've been describing for a long time actually). Now when you build a human character, or any other character that doesn't mind looking like a human, you can just cast (Human) Form and reap an Augmented Max for your physical stats fairly easily. With just 6 successes, something not that hard to do, you can get to the Augmented Max for (Human) Form!

[Halinn]

How about this for initiative (It's been quoted before, but not with this focus):

A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition,
plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers.
As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 144), which
determine the character’s Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements
to Reaction and Intuition also affect Initiative.
Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to
take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes
on the character’s record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative
Passes a character can have is 5, but most character types can only ever
achieve 4.

So quite possibly, that could be interpreted as "if your reaction gets increased by this spell, your initiative passes will be too"



Oh, and another fun thing:

Increase Reflexes
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 2
This spell increases the reflexes (Initiative and Initiative Passes) of
a voluntary subject. Each level of increase adds +1 Initiative and +1
Initiative Pass. The caster must achieve a certain threshold for each level:
Threshold 2: +1 Initiative, + 1 Initiative Pass
Threshold 3: +2 Initiative, + 2 Initiative Passes
Threshold 4 (max.): +3 Initiative, + 3 Initiative Passes
A character can only be affected by a single Increase Reflexes spell
at a time; the maximum IPs any character can have is 4.

[Mooncrow]

How about this for initiative (It's been quoted before, but not with this focus):


So quite possibly, that could be interpreted as "if your reaction gets increased by this spell, your initiative passes will be too"

Initiative Passes and Initiative are two very separate things.

[Mordinvan]

As an aside about Shapechange, due to the FAQ allowing (Human) Form, this has new and exciting possibilities (that I've been describing for a long time actually). Now when you build a human character, or any other character that doesn't mind looking like a human, you can just cast (Human) Form and reap an Augmented Max for your physical stats fairly easily. With just 6 successes, something not that hard to do, you can get to the Augmented Max for (Human) Form!

do humans have a 3 or a 6 for their physical stats?

[Neraph]

do humans have a 3 or a 6 for their physical stats?

As per the chart at the beginning of the book, the average stat for a human is 3. 6 successes would boost it to 9, their augmented max.

[Lansdren]

As per the chart at the beginning of the book, the average stat for a human is 3. 6 successes would boost it to 9, their augmented max.

Now this unlike the previous shapechange discussion I can agree with, IF and only IF you use the FAQ, not everyone does as it is not actually a Errata and shouldnt be treated as such.

My personal take on the shapechange to human issue is what do you look like? Are you just a blank human template or do you have some control, if the second then it should make the perfect disguise spell (assumming you have masking and such)

[Dahrken]

So quite possibly, that could be interpreted as "if your reaction gets increased by this spell, your initiative passes will be too"

As Mooncrow said, no. Initiative is a stat derived from two other stats, Reaction and Intuition. When the base stats are modified (by aspell, a drug, an adept power, whatever) the sentence you qoted means that the derived stat is recalculated according to their new values. Nothing more, nothing less.

Initiative Passes is a wholly different thing for which those two stats are completely irrelevant and thus it's not affected by changes to them, but only by things that specifically grant extra IPs.

[jimbo]

I haven't even bothered trying the shapechange into uberhuman critter formy Ork magician. IMO That FAQ decision is so obviously shortsighted...I mean, is the FAQ even written by folks that play a regular game? Regardless of how a GM handles an issue like IPs, a new form of min/max brokenness was ushered in with this insanity.

Hell, I'm playing a Shaolin-trained Ork mage. He has B 6, S 5, A 5, R 5 and would STILL benefit from shapechanging into a Human 3+hits form, but the possibilities for a nerd-mage turning into Captain Hell-on-Wheels America is just stupid.

Why is it ok for my Ork to s/c into an uber-tiger or dolphin? Because of the other limits he faces...no hands, loss of communication (although I'm going to pester my GM as to whether a linguasoft exists for Dolphin hehe)

[Irion]

@jimbo
And you did not even come to the cheese.
This "human" is able to just disabear. There is no way to identify him afterwards.

But anyway, he will be not able to talk...

[Neraph]

IMO That FAQ decision is so obviously shortsighted...I mean, is the FAQ even written by folks that play a regular game?

Actually, it follows the following logic:

1) (Critter) Form requires one mundane, non-paranormal animal.

2) Humans are classified as animals.

3) Dragons (not Great Dragons with their Metahuman Form Power) are stated as having the ability to use magic to appear as metahumans.

4) Profit.

[Badmoodguy88]

probably what you describe is more the train of logic that lets paranormal critters shape change into normal critters and metahumans.

[Neraph]

probably what you describe is more the train of logic that lets paranormal critters shape change into normal critters and metahumans.

And if they can do it why can't the players or other metahumans? Is it game-breaking to allow the PCs to do it but not the NPCs?

[Yerameyahu]

… Yes?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… Yes?

... Why?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Because players break the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The GM's whole job is to use literally infinite power to run adventures; there's no additional danger at all of letting NPCs have a power that would otherwise be dangerous for PCs. There are dozens of examples of this principle built right into the rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because players break the game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The GM's whole job is to use literally infinite power to run adventures; there's no additional danger at all of letting NPCs have a power that would otherwise be dangerous for PCs. There are dozens of examples of this principle built right into the rules.

Sorry, I am not seeing that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif) (Obviously, Players CAN Break the Game, though, if they really want to do so)

I am still not sure why Shapechange (Human) is gamebreaking...
Could you provide some examples? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

I would say that Many of the possible examples you are probably talking about (Great Dragons, Immortal Elves, Shadow Spirits, Blood Magic, Toxic/Twisted paths) are there for the GM to create interesting Opponents; Yes, they are not allowed for Players, but not because they are overpowered, but because the Game is not set up for player characters of that power scale... Many people (I 'm not one of them) allow such things in their games, but for me, they are not interesting options thaa I would want to play out in game. "wobble:

[Yerameyahu]

How is 'the game isn't set up for that power scale' not 'overpowered'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm taking it for granted that Shapechange (Human) is overpowered, from the rest of the thread. My point was simply that there are literally dozens of things that make the answer to that question ("And if they can do it why can't the players or other metahumans? Is it game-breaking to allow the PCs to do it but not the NPCs?"), 'yes'.

Since you ask, though, it seems like Shapechange (Human) is much stronger than the various attribute-improving spells, and it works on all of them at once? If that's the case, it's clearly overpowered (that is, it's categorically better than the balanced options available).

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How is 'the game isn't set up for that power scale' not 'overpowered'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm taking it for granted that Shapechange (Human) is overpowered, from the rest of the thread. My point was simply that there are literally dozens of things that make the answer to that question ("And if they can do it why can't the players or other metahumans? Is it game-breaking to allow the PCs to do it but not the NPCs?"), 'yes'.

But I WOULD Allow it for the NPC's, thus an even playing field...

Since you ask, though, it seems like Shapechange (Human) is much stronger than the various attribute-improving spells, and it works on all of them at once? If that's the case, it's clearly overpowered (that is, it's categorically better than the balanced options available).

It is indeed powerful, no argument about that... But I really do not see it as any more powerful than the Street Sam with Maxed Physical Attributes... At worst, it allows a Mage to attain parity (Stat Wise) physically with those who have access to the 'ware. With ANY race other than Human, though, they gain/lose soemthing to do so... A Troll with a Strength of 10 and Increase Strength Spell (Or Body 10 + Spell for that Matter) would max out at Stat: 15, all things being equal; shapechanging to a Human is a net loss for the Troll (And generally for the Ork as well; Hell, even Elves suffer in the Agility Department, and Dwarves in Body and Strength) even if he does benefit from a better agility in the end.

We have not used that particular application of Shapechange yet, thoguh I do have a character designed around that Idea. I do not really see it as an issue though (After all, you would need 18 Dice to guarantee that +6 for maxed attributes with a roll, or 24 Dice to buy the hits; My peasly build with only 9 Dice is only likely to attain that +3 Level, which takes me to 6's in Physical Stats... not exactly overpowered in my opinion). It is a trade off. In my opinion, the Human makes out the best, as they could get those stat boosts with a single spell and new identity (for all intents and purposes)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Neraph]

Don't forget the Troll Mage Shapeshifting into an Elephant with 18, 10, 9, 22 for physical stats.

Suddenly 9's down the board look tame, especially if you allow them to gain the Powers of the critter like the FAQ mentions... Look at the Powers for Elephants and Rhinocerous.

I want to make a troll mystic adept named Rocksteady now...

EDIT: I just ran a theorhetical dicepool of 18 with 3 Edge, Edging the spell. 8 Successes (I didn't get any of my 4 rerolls on my 6's). That's 20, 12, 11, 24 for elephant and 20, 11, 12, 24 for Rhinocerous. With a little Combat Sense this elephant/rhino can dodge bullets fairly easily. Scary thought.

[The Grue Master]

As a point of reference, why is there a manipulation spell that increases attributes so effectively? One net hit grants four points of increased attributes, something that is completely unobtainable via health spells. If this works so readily there should be an 'increase physical stats' spell that immediately gives me my racial augmented maximums. Or at the very least +Force to everything.

I find this spell (like many others) pointless and infuriating. Mages should be just another archetype not bizarre mutants built solely out of cheese who are inexplicably both godlike and impotent. 5e better fix some of this idiocy.