Shapechange Question Options

[Yerameyahu]

Neraph, we know that *you* embrace RAW monstrosities. Most people don't; it's no reason for namecalling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mooncrow]

I believe by RAW you absolutely can, and if your tables can't handle the RAW maybe you should try a different game. I was looking for a more mature response from people who've read the rules before posting. Thank you.

Bad rules are bad rules - but they don't destroy a game unless you let them.

[Neraph]

Neraph, we know that *you* embrace RAW monstrosities. Most people don't; it's no reason for namecalling. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm trying to tone it down, but when I constantly get answers like "That's just stupid and I'd never let something obviously RAW at a table where I otherwise play with the rules of the game you're talking about" make me angry.

It's like saying China should be against the rules because it's so big. Or the Congo should be outlawed because it's so much swamp.

When you're playing a game of rules and something is legitimate by the rules of said game, there need to be extreme circumstances to completely disallow such a decision. Otherwise you fall into the category of someone complaining about how the dealer had a royal flush and you only had a pair of 3's.

[Yerameyahu]

Congo *should* be outlawed.

GMs have always disallowed things that technically follow the rules. It's part of the job. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I understand that you were looking for a rules discussion, and like I said, I know your preference for RAW. I'm just pointing out that Mooncrow's answer *is* both familiar and reasonable for many gamers.

Where exactly is this 'Morphic Form' power, anyway?

[Neraph]

Special Power for Spirits in Street Magic.

It should be noted that many of these things I come up with are testing the limits of the game. They may not all be intended for actual game use, but they are otherwise legal to use in games. I like looking at my entire arsenal before I choose the weapon I want.

[Yerameyahu]

Mutable Form?

[Mooncrow]

Special Power for Spirits in Street Magic.

It should be noted that many of these things I come up with are testing the limits of the game. They may not all be intended for actual game use, but they are otherwise legal to use in games. I like looking at my entire arsenal before I choose the weapon I want.

Well, I personally think that having all spellcasters having all 9s in physical stats all the time is extreme enough by itself to un-errata the errata. And you should know I usually argue from the rules anyway - it's not like we haven't done this before ^^ This case is bad enough that in most cases I wouldn't bother. But, for you, for a moment let's roll with it.

Where did you say Morphic Power was again? I'm not finding it.

[Yerameyahu]

There's Realistic Form and Mutable Form. Both of these are more like 'upgrades' to the Materialization power, not shapeshift powers themselves; it seems like you'd Materialize (as whatever) and *then* Shapechange. So, no, that wouldn't really work.

[Mooncrow]

I'm trying to tone it down, but when I constantly get answers like "That's just stupid and I'd never let something obviously RAW at a table where I otherwise play with the rules of the game you're talking about" make me angry.

I guess I should note that I actually house rule the hell out of things at my table. RAW discussion are generally fun though, and oftentimes I learn things^^ I just happen to think the Shapechange (human) thing is probably the worst rule in 4th right now. And I do feel a little passionate about it.

[Yerameyahu]

Can we agree that some things simply *are* manifestly stupid and/or broken? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Common ground, people.

[Neraph]

Mutable Form?

Yeah that one. I didn't have my books open, and haven't felt like opening them today. Long day at work.

I just happen to think the Shapechange (human) thing is probably the worst rule in 4th right now.

And Shapeshifting into a rhinocerous isn't? That's more than 9s in all stats with a natural attack, armor, and speed comparable to some vehicles.

Or heck, since technically the statblocks for animals don't have maximums, you could theoretically get 15s in all the stats for a (Wolf) Form spell. How is that better than (Human) Form? Just because a human can wear armor and wield weapons?

In any event, my question was how Shapechange interacted with the ability of a spirit to turn into whatever they wanted anyway - basically asking the forum community to double-check my logic.

By the RAW, you can Shapechange into anything, gaining the new stats inherent to the spell, and then use Mutable Form (or whatever the heck that Power's name is) and turn into whatever shape you want, while maintaining the better stats as long as you maintain Sustaining the spell. Correct?

[Yerameyahu]

I think I answered: apparently not. Mutable Form isn't a power you activate whenever you like. It's not shapechange.

Even if it were (and it doesn't appear to be), I would not expect the powers (spells, etc.) to interact in that way. If you get rhino stats from turning into a rhino, why would you keep them if you then turned into a sparrow?

[Mooncrow]

Yeah that one. I didn't have my books open, and haven't felt like opening them today. Long day at work.


And Shapeshifting into a rhinocerous isn't? That's more than 9s in all stats with a natural attack, armor, and speed comparable to some vehicles.

Or heck, since technically the statblocks for animals don't have maximums, you could theoretically get 15s in all the stats for a (Wolf) Form spell. How is that better than (Human) Form? Just because a human can wear armor and wield weapons?

In any event, my question was how Shapechange interacted with the ability of a spirit to turn into whatever they wanted anyway - basically asking the forum community to double-check my logic.

By the RAW, you can Shapechange into anything, gaining the new stats inherent to the spell, and then use Mutable Form (or whatever the heck that Power's name is) and turn into whatever shape you want, while maintaining the better stats as long as you maintain Sustaining the spell. Correct?

I don't think so - from the FAQ (the evil one):

While in critter form the character loses access to any abilities and powers particular to their normal physical form (e.g., natural low-light vision, natural armor, cyberware, etc.) and gains any of the critter's Powers (Enhanced Senses, Natural Weapon, etc.) while they are in that form.

So it would lose it's power of mutable form, I think. /shrug A lot of the normal rules are hard to apply to Free Spirits (and AIs)

As for the first part, at least animal form have drawbacks that would prevent you from using it all the time. Whether those drawbacks are enough to balance it; eh, I'm still not sure.

edit: I think Yama is also correct - the spirit would have to go astral, losing it's shapechange spell in order to re-materialize as something else.

[Neraph]

I think I answered: apparently not. Mutable Form isn't a power you activate whenever you like. It's not shapechange.

Even if it were (and it doesn't appear to be), I would not expect the powers (spells, etc.) to interact in that way. If you get rhino stats from turning into a rhino, why would you keep them if you then turned into a sparrow?

/sigh.

Close but no at the same time. I think you're confusing the Shapechange effects with the visualization of the Mutable Form Power. You use the Shapechange spell to gain the stats of the rhino and then use the Power of Mutable Form to become a sparrow, which itself doesn't alter your attributes at all.

The reason that I found it doesn't work is this: Mutable Form is an add-on to the rules for Materialization, which requires you to be in Astral Form before using. You can't have Shapechange cast while astral, so you wouldn't be able to have the stats resulting from the spell that you can't cast when you materialize.

Basically I enjoyed the mental image of a group shooting a bird and that bird ending up having like 20 Body and morphing into an angry rhino right in front of them without having to have a really high force spirit to do so. Ah well, a pipe dream 'twas.

EDIT:

I don't think so - from the FAQ (the evil one):

While in critter form the character loses access to any abilities and powers particular to their normal physical form (e.g., natural low-light vision, natural armor, cyberware, etc.) and gains any of the critter's Powers (Enhanced Senses, Natural Weapon, etc.) while they are in that form.

So it would lose it's power of mutable form, I think. /shrug A lot of the normal rules are hard to apply to Free Spirits (and AIs)

As for the first part, at least animal form have drawbacks that would prevent you from using it all the time. Whether those drawbacks are enough to balance it; eh, I'm still not sure.

edit: I think Yama is also correct - the spirit would have to go astral, losing it's shapechange spell in order to re-materialize as something else.

Thank you.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, Neraph, I'm glad you read what I specifically said (twice!). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still say that you can't so easily dismiss the fact that Shapechange-based stats are tied to the *shape*, and a theoretical alternate shapechanging effect wouldn't be expected to maintain them. It's not just an illusion, after all; you literally become a toaster, for example. If you wanted to gain a sparrow's physical flight, you should certainly expect to lose the rhino's physical aspects. But anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Hehe, Neraph, I'm glad you read what I specifically said (twice!). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I still say that you can't so easily dismiss the fact that Shapechange-based stats are tied to the *shape*, and a theoretical alternate shapechanging effect wouldn't be expected to maintain them. It's not just an illusion, after all; you literally become a toaster, for example. If you wanted to gain a sparrow's physical flight, you should certainly expect to lose the rhino's physical aspects. But anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I blame me being tired. When I read your posts I see smilies and not neccessarily text sometimes. When Mooncrow applauded what you said I re-read your post and didn't see what he was talking about.

Looking at everything again I see it now. I think I'm really tired is what this comes down to.

[Straight Razor]

Here's another one for you:

What happens if a spirit casts Shapechange and then, while still sustaining the spell, uses its Morphic Form Power? Can it turn into a wolf, get the greater stats from the spellcasting test, then change to look like a gnome? Can it turn into a rhinocerous, benefit from the awsome stats, then change to a sparrow and fly away?

did exclusive actions transition into 4th? I'm pretty sure that in 3rd that is exclusive, and there for you auto-drop any spells when you use the power.


you don't play this game to relax and have fun do you? Ever thought of taking up trigonometry, or computer programing? i really think you would get the same... whatever you get. With them creative thinking, and logical jumps are absolutely not allowed. I think you have the talent to embrace mindless digital thought to an extent that you could make a name for you self.

[naga-nuyen]

Wow big debate, my two cent (usually worth less though and sorry for the length) shapechange by RAW is filled with allot of loose ends allowing players/GM to manipulate the options in order to max their gaming power.

It really comes down to what you want to see within the RAW and the FAQ (yes some people dismiss it out of hand) and what you really want to achieve in the game. I play a naga in my primary game, lucky for me i also run one campaign and play two different PC's in two other smaller games. Now my Naga is a spellcaster, and relies on shapechange to allow him to mingle with humanity that he loves to observe and study. Yet we play with the FAQ i lose so much by taking human form, namely guard ability which creates a safety net (for those teammates that are close) from glitches.

Now we also play with the concept that you are what you change into, and get reactions that are appropriate to that form: IE if i want to have a maxed out human, people will respond to super buff guy that glides like a snake in water moving into a bar....maybe a norm from our runner perceptive but for the normal person seeing someone so perfect it is remarkable, and they will retain that image. And if your thinking so what, he can change into any form he wants, it allows the witness to inform the authorities and they then can bring in a mage that can look astral and check for lingering astral presence. It may or may not be much, but it adds to the adventure, creating another story line for the GM

As a GM i am not as worried about a player's stats and mini/maxi people. I do not see my position to play power games with players....if i have allowed something in the game, than i need to adjust my story to keep pace. One maxed physical adept/ mage/ samurai allows for the players to feel comfortable with the PC and gives them confidence to perform in there given rolls....it is my job to not only challenge them in those rolls but create situations that challenge there weaker abilities.

Last note (this is not something that i like share allot...it has been hard to adjust in this new life) I know firsthand what it is like send rounds down range. I also have taken two years to recover from injuries for when you are in the position that you do not have fire and position superiority. I feel lucky for my place in life, but i am a hell of GM when it comes to taking a 4-6 man team against any situation where you surrender numbers and fight on their turf. My players know that to under estimate 10-12 corp. guards, one rigger, one hacker, and 1-2 mages is to court death. Yes my guys have higher initiative and more IP's, but if they do not set up the field and control the timing than my over lapping fields of fire + cover + different tactics with drones and watcher spirits and normal spirits will eat their team up in short order.

This is just my two cents (or more like two fifty cent pieces), take care gentlemen and ladies and enjoy the day.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's your job to challenge the players in all their roles. And I think that you probably are doing that, despite what you said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[yesferatu]

That raises an excellent point...does it have to be a critter?
Can it just be into another metahuman form?
Can a human turn himself into a troll for example?

[Mooncrow]

That raises an excellent point...does it have to be a critter?
Can it just be into another metahuman form?
Can a human turn himself into a troll for example?

According to the FAQ, only human, since the other metatypes are "paranormal".

[Neraph]

you don't play this game to relax and have fun do you? Ever thought of taking up trigonometry, or computer programing? i really think you would get the same... whatever you get. With them creative thinking, and logical jumps are absolutely not allowed. I think you have the talent to embrace mindless digital thought to an extent that you could make a name for you self.

Actually I do play this game to relax and have fun. I'm not sure that's the same reason I come to this message board though..

And thank.. you.. I think..?

[naga-nuyen]

Thank you Yerameyahu, it is one of my goals.

On the shapechange topic, it boils down to critter and those within your body stat... When i first made my Naga i used BP...But then we switched to Karmagen and i used 1,000 points....which meant a more powerful Naga, better rounded, but damn me if my GM was not looking out for me i almost took the option of turning into a human away from myself. My first build had a body of 5, but under the new build i got a body of 7. Now before we started play i had to nerf my naga just so he can blend with people. And yes i can get a better body in human form, but i lose allot in the deal as explained in my last post.

How many players have a body of 10? Now even with mods, most that add to your body for resistance... not the total score. So we are talking what the Suprathyroid Gland for a +1, and some genetech, and qualities that add to the body? For what, so the player can ask the mage (who may just be tired of casting said spell for said player) to change him into a rhino? Not so much fun for me.

Now my naga uses the spell so he can enter society with allot more ease. Not sure about you but last time i went to the Zoo and had a conversation with the 20 foot python i felt kind of odd....and the staff were none to gentle when they had me leave! Also my naga has assumed that crossing lights do not yet take 30 foot reptile in mind when you're crossing a road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Take care and have a good day runners!

Quick note: Neraph i want to thank you for responding to so many of my posts lol, even if some are pushing the limits for interest (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) have a good day!

[Mooncrow]

How many players have a body of 10?

Thank you for reminding me of that limitation; Neraph wasn't the only one that was tired last night^^

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, most of the sapient critters are (intended to be) unplayable. In a game predicated on how weird it is to be a troll in society, they make trolls look normal.