Shapechange Question Options

[naga-nuyen]

I tell you what, Naga is all fun, but you have to be very sure about the people you run with! We took a job for the Dick Johnson type, it paid large and we ran smart did the Data steal, went up to extract the guy when we found Johnson take two! Yep MR J had a twin, and this dude was even more of a dick. So at the end, we got him out and went to meet his brother at a Bar in Renton! Yepper poli club central and my strung up street samurai decided then and there to be a even bigger royal pain in the end.....so MR j number two cast a dispelling on me when he left the bar.

As the poli members exploded in action, i look over at my partner in crime and hiss, "Run now, because i am going to bit you!" So there are poli members beating on me and i am trying to slither after my street muscle in order to sample what little remained of his flesh.....Damn slither rate, the bastard got away and i knocked myself out throwing some giant stun balls (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Thank you for reminding me of that limitation; Neraph wasn't the only one that was tired last night^^

A Fomori; a SURGE'd Troll; a dwarf, troll, or ork with Increase (Body) active; a sasquach; or even a pixie who cast Shapechange to turn into a wolf, then casts it a second time while still sustaining the first to become a horse, releasing the first so it's only sustaining the Horse change, then casting a second one to turn into a rhinocerous.

Many, many ways to get 10-14 body.

[Mooncrow]

A Fomori; a SURGE'd Troll; a dwarf, troll, or ork with Increase (Body) active; a sasquach; or even a pixie who cast Shapechange to turn into a wolf, then casts it a second time while still sustaining the first to become a horse, releasing the first so it's only sustaining the Horse change, then casting a second one to turn into a rhinocerous.

Many, many ways to get 10-14 body.

There are, for those that are going the heavy physical route - and then the change to a rhino isn't quite as overpowering, since they already have good physical stats.

[Neraph]

I had the idea for a mystic adept troll that turns into one for unarmed combat. Tack on some Penetrating Strike and possibly Critical Strike and you've got serious damage output. The funny thing is that if you get ~6 successes and have some decent Combat Sense you can dodge bullets quite easily as a rhinocerous or elephant.

[naga-nuyen]

LOL yeah there is that. But i still do not worry that it is a problem. It will not be for me as a player; I will use it according to my PC's needs and personality, nor will it be a problem for me a GM if you or one of my players wants to sit down and make a PC built towards that direction I am glad for it. It is my job as a story teller to provide as exact a situation for my player's as I can... hell if one of them wanted to try out the Dragon April fool’s day rule spread i would let them. As long as we all have fun i care not, though i would like to keep things as RAW as possible if one player wants to get stupid than by god i will allow all players to get dumb.... have a couple games that are for laughs, then when the interest of super Rhino mage caster wares off then we get to a more RAW practical game.

[Neraph]

Codename: Rocksteady.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm sure that chain-Shapechange to get to higher Body doesn't work; such abuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

I'm sure that chain-Shapechange to get to higher Body doesn't work; such abuse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

... Guess what I'm going to say. You should know me by now.

[Yerameyahu]

'Nyah nyah, game-breaking isn't important because I can get higher numberz!'? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Hehe.

[Neraph]

Close-ish.

It was going to be "can you quote me a rule that says I can't be under the effects of 2 of the same spells at the same time," or something similar.

For example: Can you have two Armor spells active at the same time? Can you have two Combat Sense spells active at the same time? The answers to both of those are yes, and the bonuses stack. In fact, the same is true for any spell except where the spell specifically state they don't stack, such as Increased Reflexes.

[Yerameyahu]

No way. If anything, you can have both, but only the strongest one functions. Nonstacking is a general rule, because we like to be sane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Neraph]

Nonstacking is a general rule, because we like to be sane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Really? Can you point me to a rule other than 0? General Consensus does not equal General Rule.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, I refuse to have the same discussion over and over. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Here's why it works.

When you cast Shapechange the first time, you have to choose an animal +/- 2 Body from yours to change into, then you add your spellcasting successes to its physical stats which replace yours for as long as you sustain the spell. You can still cast spells while Shapechanged. So now that you've cast it, you cast it again, choosing a new form based off your higher stats. When you're in your new form, you stop sustaining the first.

Also, when you cast Armor the successes are added to your armor rating as ballistic and impact and that stacks with all other armor forms... including itself. So if you cast the Armor spell three times at force four with four successes each you end up with +12/+12 armor.

This remains balanced because in the case of the Shapechange chain, one Counterspell action to dispell it or one Mana Static takes the Shapechainer out of the fight for a few turns, if he even wants to try and regain his power-form, not to mention the already easy ways to nerf a melee combatant (start/stay ranged, have obstacles in the way, take the fight to 3 dimensions [balconies, moving cars, ect.] ect). In the case of basically any other Chain, the caster is taking multiple Sustaining Penalties, unless he's spending a lot of resources mitigating it, in which case he's spending lots of resources to do it.

[Mooncrow]

Here's why it works.

When you cast Shapechange the first time, you have to choose an animal +/- 2 Body from yours to change into, then you add your spellcasting successes to its physical stats which replace yours for as long as you sustain the spell. You can still cast spells while Shapechanged. So now that you've cast it, you cast it again, choosing a new form based off your higher stats. When you're in your new form, you stop sustaining the first.

Also, when you cast Armor the successes are added to your armor rating as ballistic and impact and that stacks with all other armor forms... including itself. So if you cast the Armor spell three times at force four with four successes each you end up with +12/+12 armor.

This remains balanced because in the case of the Shapechange chain, one Counterspell action to dispell it or one Mana Static takes the Shapechainer out of the fight for a few turns, if he even wants to try and regain his power-form, not to mention the already easy ways to nerf a melee combatant (start/stay ranged, have obstacles in the way, take the fight to 3 dimensions [balconies, moving cars, ect.] ect). In the case of basically any other Chain, the caster is taking multiple Sustaining Penalties, unless he's spending a lot of resources mitigating it, in which case he's spending lots of resources to do it.

As crazy as it may seem, right now, by RAW, this is legal.

Balanced, probably not so much.

edit: heh, for some reason I thought you were talking about Increase (body) here. Brain fart on my part. Does Running Wild have the augmented maximums for the different animals?

[Neraph]

As crazy as it may seem, right now, by RAW, this is legal.

Balanced, probably not so much.

Thank you.

[phlapjack77]

Ever thought of taking up trigonometry, or computer programing?...With them creative thinking, and logical jumps are absolutely not allowed.

Harrumpphhh Programmers absolutely have to be creative thinkers....thank you very much! Or...so I hear, anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

@Neraph
Well, fist of all Shapechange talks about the Body attribute, not the augmented. So everything you said is strictly speaking off the table.

[Mooncrow]

@Neraph
Well, fist of all Shapechange talks about the Body attribute, not the augmented. So everything you said is strictly speaking off the table.

The term "attribute" is used to cover both. Natural Attribute and Augmented Attribute are the terms when you want to make a distinction.

[Yerameyahu]

It doesn't matter, because it's still firmly in the realm of 'novelty theoretical char-op' and could never be used in a game.

[Lansdren]

I'm pretty sure that chaining sustained spells is not a good way to go.

some day I would love to see a Dev response pointing out the silliness of some of these suggestions to kill it.

[Yerameyahu]

Chaining, indeed, is even worse than stacking.

[Neraph]

It doesn't matter, because it's still firmly in the realm of 'novelty theoretical char-op' and could never be used in a game.

That's a broad, sweeping statement. And I believe an incorrect one at that.

I'm pretty sure that chaining sustained spells is not a good way to go.

some day I would love to see a Dev response pointing out the silliness of some of these suggestions to kill it.

Can you think of any reasons other than "I don't think that should work" as to why it can't? Why would a developer destroy the concept of sustaining multiple spells, much less multiples of the same? You're basically super-focusing a mage on one purpose - does not a rigger do this when he jumps into a drone? And he doesn't even take a -2 to all actions to do so.

[Irion]

@Mooncrow
Well, you find the often the wording (augmented) attribut for example in the spelldescription of increase attribute.

I do not want do maken an argument out of it, because it would lead to silly results on most parts.
But so does the stacking of Shapechange.
The point is, if you insist (as a player) on silly rules, you should not wonder if the GM insists on silly rules.

[Neraph]

The point is, if you insist (as a player) on silly rules, you should not wonder if the GM insists on silly rules.

Ok, but what I'm doing is insisting on something that's plainly RAW and recieving the second part of your statement. If you believe RAW = silly rules, I suggest you go look at the RAW discussion thread.