Shapechange Question Options

[Irion]

Care must be made to distinguish between natural, unmodified attribute ratings and those augmented by cyberware, bioware, adept powers, and magic... Physical and Mental attributes have a maximum natural rating of 6 plus or minus metatype modifiers, depending on metatype (p. 81). The maximum augmented attribute value for for each metatype is equal to 1.5 times this figure, rounded down

Right, did't find it on my first search.

So I hae to withdraw this argument. But since we agree on the point I tried to make it was useless anyway.

The Point is nowhere in the book is said a target may be affected by the same spell multible times. So by the first interpretation of the meaning of RAW Trick of stacking Shapechange is off the table. Actually there is no indication it would work.
Spell A says turn into a wolf and Spell B says turn into a bear. Why should spell B be dominant?
In what Form would the subject be while both spells are active? Remember: This spell is not permanent (in which case it would be raw), it is sustained.
You try to inflict two contradictionary effects on the same target (be a wolf/be a bear).

[Mooncrow]

Right, did't find it on my first search.

So I hae to withdraw this argument. But since we agree on the point I tried to make it was useless anyway.

The Point is nowhere in the book is said a target may be affected by the same spell multible times. So by the first interpretation of the meaning of RAW Trick of stacking Shapechange is off the table. Actually there is no indication it would work.
Spell A says turn into a wolf and Spell B says turn into a bear. Why should spell B be dominant?
In what Form would the subject be while both spells are active? Remember: This spell is not permanent (in which case it would be raw), it is sustained.
You try to inflict two contradictionary effects on the same target (be a wolf/be a bear).

Ah, you're talking about the Shapechange chain thing that Neraph was on about. Yeah, I didn't really pay attention to that at first, and after I saw it, I didn't feel like even touching that one, especially since in this case I can't back it up with definitive proof. The Shapechange spell really is one of those things that should have a huge space, detailing very clearly the conditions and limitations, but instead, GMs everywhere get to sigh and make their own (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

edit: bah, sometimes I need to read things closer, I thought Neraph was still on about his Rocksteady concept. Way to have a different conversation than everyone else, Moon (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Irion]

@Mooncrow
As long as you stick with the wording and do not try to bend it, it works.
But as soon as you hit stuff like:
Lets by human form, it starts to get out of line. (Not to mention, that this spell is either way one of the most powerfull in the book)

[Neraph]

The Point is nowhere in the book is said a target may be affected by the same spell multible times. So by the first interpretation of the meaning of RAW Trick of stacking Shapechange is off the table. Actually there is no indication it would work.
Spell A says turn into a wolf and Spell B says turn into a bear. Why should spell B be dominant?
In what Form would the subject be while both spells are active? Remember: This spell is not permanent (in which case it would be raw), it is sustained.
You try to inflict two contradictionary effects on the same target (be a wolf/be a bear).

And at the same time nowhere does it state you are not allowed to stack spells. It depends on what the spell itself says. For example, you can cast Increase Reflexes fifty-billion times on yourself (assuming you have a dicepool after a one-hundred billion penalty to all rolls...). The thing is, only the highest would apply because that's what Initiative Passes tell you. Alternatively, if you cast Armor ten times on yourself, you get the full armor bonus each time because it specifically says it stacks with your armor worn. So if you have a +1 that stacks with your armor worn, and a +4 that stacks, and a +3 that stacks, that's +8 that stacks with your armor worn.

And on Shapechain: this is how it works. You cast the first spell on yourself to turn into a wolf. That spell is still active. Then you cast a second spell to turn yourself into a horse. That spell is now superceeding the first, in the same way that if you cast Shapechange to turn into a wolf and then Physical Mask to make you look like a same-sized briefcase would make you look like a briefcase, not a wolf.

It's also important to note that as soon as the horse-form spell takes effect you would stop sustaining the wolf-form. Do you know what action it takes to stop sustaining a spell? I can't find anything except "stops concentrating on the spell."

Here's another scenario for you: a shifter casts Shapechange, then uses its Shift Power. What does it look like?

Also, it's interesting to note we really don't have the Attribute Maximums for critters, by-and-large. It's entirely feasible to hit yourself with a Edged Shapechange, get 15 successes, and the full 15 adds to all the attributes of your new form. Then you could use Increase (Attribute) to push that even further up.

[Draco18s]

Also, it's interesting to note we really don't have the Attribute Maximums for critters, by-and-large. It's entirely feasible to hit yourself with a Edged Shapechange, get 15 successes, and the full 15 adds to all the attributes of your new form. Then you could use Increase (Attribute) to push that even further up.

If Increased Attribute didn't require a Force 15+ spell now that you're Strength is a minimum of 15 due to the shapechange.

[Neraph]

If Increased Attribute didn't require a Force 15+ spell now that you're Strength is a minimum of 15 due to the shapechange.

It's still possible. You could have your 2/6 dragon contact cast it for you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And at the same time nowhere does it state you are not allowed to stack spells. It depends on what the spell itself says. For example, you can cast Increase Reflexes fifty-billion times on yourself (assuming you have a dicepool after a one-hundred billion penalty to all rolls...). The thing is, only the highest would apply because that's what Initiative Passes tell you. Alternatively, if you cast Armor ten times on yourself, you get the full armor bonus each time because it specifically says it stacks with your armor worn. So if you have a +1 that stacks with your armor worn, and a +4 that stacks, and a +3 that stacks, that's +8 that stacks with your armor worn.

Note... It says stacks with Armor Worn... Not armor gained from Spells... so no, no armor spell stacking allowed...

And on Shapechain: this is how it works. You cast the first spell on yourself to turn into a wolf. That spell is still active. Then you cast a second spell to turn yourself into a horse. That spell is now superceeding the first, in the same way that if you cast Shapechange to turn into a wolf and then Physical Mask to make you look like a same-sized briefcase would make you look like a briefcase, not a wolf.

It's also important to note that as soon as the horse-form spell takes effect you would stop sustaining the wolf-form. Do you know what action it takes to stop sustaining a spell? I can't find anything except "stops concentrating on the spell."

Here's another scenario for you: a shifter casts Shapechange, then uses its Shift Power. What does it look like?

2 Cases... Pretty Simple in my opinion...

1. Shapechain fails outright (It does not work that way in my opinion) if you choose to not sustain all spells in the chain...
Alternately: You want a bigger or smaller form, cast "Increase/Decrease Body, Sustain it and then cast Shapechange (and sustain it)... if the Increase/Decrease is dropped, the Shapechange goes along with it.

If using Chaining "Logic" all prerequisites are part of the "Chain" and if a single link of the chain breaks, the entire chain unravels... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

2. The Shifter one is easy as well: the Shifter would look like whatever his Shift Power provides, and he loses any benefit from Shapechange... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Also, it's interesting to note we really don't have the Attribute Maximums for critters, by-and-large. It's entirely feasible to hit yourself with a Edged Shapechange, get 15 successes, and the full 15 adds to all the attributes of your new form. Then you could use Increase (Attribute) to push that even further up.

Already been addressed, but You MUST satisfy all requirements of the spell... in this case, Minimum Force of 16 (Base 1 + 15 Previous sustained Successes)... Have fun trying that one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Emy]

Already been addressed, but You MUST satisfy all requirements of the spell... in this case, Minimum Force of 16 (Base 1 + 15 Previous sustained Successes)... Have fun trying that one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Force 16 spells are two initiations and two points of magic* away from character generation. Certainly not unattainable.

*Or one 15bp spirit pact quality, for a Magic Pact with a Force 3 spirit.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Force 16 spells are two initiations and two points of magic* away from character generation. Certainly not unattainable.

*Or one 15bp spirit pact quality, for a Magic Pact with a Force 3 spirit.

Never said they were unattainable, just ludicrous... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
And it is only 2 Initiations and 2 points of magic if you started out with a Magic Rating of 6, which is never a guarantee... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And the costs for a Pact is based upon the Edge of the Spirit not the Force of the Spirit... Just Sayin'

[Mordinvan]

Never said they were unattainable, just ludicrous... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)
And it is only 2 Initiations and 2 points of magic if you started out with a Magic Rating of 6, which is never a guarantee... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And the costs for a Pact is based upon the Edge of the Spirit not the Force of the Spirit... Just Sayin'

Ya, but most of the time edge = force

[Yerameyahu]

Try telling your GM that you want a pact with an Edge 1, Force 6 Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Neraph, that doesn't mean you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Try telling your GM that you want a pact with an Edge 1, Force 6 Spirit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Neraph, that doesn't mean you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Was not a comment to propogate the ludicrousness of the situation, just wanted to point it out is all. While a Spirit may indeed have an Edge attribute that is Equal to its Force, that is not always the case, especially for Free Spirits (Whose Edge attribute may be Higher or Lower). Also, if you use "Named" spirits for your summoning (ie, you tend to summon the exact same spirits, time and again), the spirit that you typically summon may have an Edge attribute smaller than its Force. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Emy]

Never said they were unattainable, just ludicrous... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Perhaps I should have posted "far from unattainable"? I meant to imply that it's fairly easy to get Magic 8, and that's part of the natural progression of many mage characters.

And it is only 2 Initiations and 2 points of magic if you started out with a Magic Rating of 6, which is never a guarantee... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

If you're building your own character, you can put 65BP into Magic to have Magic 6. Do you think that if I were building a mage character, and started the game with Magic 6, the GM would say "sorry whoops you now have Move-by-Wire rating 1, drop your magic appropriately"? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

And the costs for a Pact is based upon the Edge of the Spirit not the Force of the Spirit... Just Sayin'

I specified Force 3 because that's what's needed to get +2 magic, not because of the cost... Just Sayin'

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Perhaps I should have posted "far from unattainable"? I meant to imply that it's fairly easy to get Magic 8, and that's part of the natural progression of many mage characters.

While it may be part of the expected natural progression, I rarely (I actually have yet to see one at our table) seen a mage with an 8+ Magic Rating since SR4 came into existence. Admittedly, it was more common in previous editions, as you STARTED with a 6. Nor have I seen Force 16 Spells being bandied about at a whim, as your post implied...

If you're building your own character, you can put 65BP into Magic to have Magic 6. Do you think that if I were building a mage character, and started the game with Magic 6, the GM would say "sorry whoops you now have Move-by-Wire rating 1, drop your magic appropriately"? I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.

Indeed you can... Never said you couldn't... AS for Magic Loss, there are not a lot of causes in SR4A that force Magic Loss, so that is less of an issue. Again, it was less about attaining a magic attribute of 8, than a Spell at Force 16...

I specified Force 3 because that's what's needed to get +2 magic, not because of the cost... Just Sayin'

Force 2 would probably suffice for a bonus of +2 Magic... But my point about the Cost was that it was not based on the Spirit's FORCE, but on the Spirit's EDGE...

[Yerameyahu]

Why *is* that, anyway? Shouldn't everything about spirits be based on force?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Why *is* that, anyway? Shouldn't everything about spirits be based on force?

Probably because Spirits can Burn Edge just like a PC can... and Free Spirits can raise their edge with Karma (At least the PC version can do so)... That would be my guess anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No… I mean why *Edge* in the first place? If you were choosing a natural number to peg spirits to, would you pick the single rating that basically determines everything about them, or some random luck stat?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No… I mean why *Edge* in the first place? If you were choosing a natural number to peg spirits to, would you pick the single rating that basically determines everything about them, or some random luck stat?

Not sure Why... Point taken though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Emy]

While it may be part of the expected natural progression, I rarely (I actually have yet to see one at our table) seen a mage with an 8+ Magic Rating since SR4 came into existence. Admittedly, it was more common in previous editions, as you STARTED with a 6. Nor have I seen Force 16 Spells being bandied about at a whim, as your post implied...

"Easy to get" (what I posted) is not the same as "Force 16 spells being bandied about at a whim" (what you read). Casting them isn't really trivial due to the drain involved, but it's not hard to get access to them. Once you have this access, when you run out of bubblegum and need to bust out some serious magical muscle, you're able to do so.

Force 2 would probably suffice for a bonus of +2 Magic... But my point about the Cost was that it was not based on the Spirit's FORCE, but on the Spirit's EDGE...

It would not suffice. Force 3 is required. The bonus provided by Magic Pact is half of the Spirit's, rounded up.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It would not suffice. Force 3 is required. The bonus provided by Magic Pact is half of the Spirit's, rounded up.

Yep, Forgot about that Point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And cost is still based upon Edge...

[Emy]

Yep, Forgot about that Point... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
And cost is still based upon Edge...

Yes, the cost is still Edge-based. Do you have a point to that statement, or are you simply repeating it for fun?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, the cost is still Edge-based. Do you have a point to that statement, or are you simply repeating it for fun?

Starting to get kind of fun... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

But really, that was more the point I was trying to make to you earlier (rather than the Magic Rating required), and you seemed to be ignoring it... just wanted to make sure you actually noticed what I was referencing, that's all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

As for the commonality, or use, of a Force 16 Spell... I have yet to see why something of that magnitude would ever be required for any situation. Sure, you COULD use it if you wanted, but I can concieve of no reason to do so, that something less powerful would not be capable of succeeding against. And if any such situation were to develop, it would be such an edge case that it would not really be applicable as an example.

Anyways...

[Emy]

As for the commonality, or use, of a Force 16 Spell... I have yet to see why something of that magnitude would ever be required for any situation. Sure, you COULD use it if you wanted, but I can concieve of no reason to do so, that something less powerful would not be capable of succeeding against.

You're the one that pointed out the Increase Attribute spell from Neraph's bit of idle speculation would require a Force 16 spell.

Already been addressed, but You MUST satisfy all requirements of the spell... in this case, Minimum Force of 16 (Base 1 + 15 Previous sustained Successes)... Have fun trying that one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

(bolding mine in both quotes)

[Yerameyahu]

In fairness, using Increase Attribute in that situation does constitute 'no reason to do so', because it's ridiculous. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're the one that pointed out the Increase Attribute spell from Neraph's bit of idle speculation would require a Force 16 spell.
(bolding mine in both quotes)

Indeed, I did point out the Ludicrousness of the Requirement, which is why I said it was a Ludicrous Proposition in the first place... the condition was on the example (Stat of 15) provided by Neraph... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

Glad that has been settled now... Whew... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And for clarification, in case you did not catch it, Edge cases such as this are a waste, as far as I am concerned. You (generic you here, not pointing fingers) take a situation, and then blow it completely beyond anything that is sane to start with and then expect the result to be sane (Since when are Force 16 Spells sane and common, even if it is not all that hard to get there)... Really? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)