Shapechange Question Options

[Mordinvan]

No it doesn't. (Lap 12) The spell only refers you to the stat block for Physical Attributes. The rest of the animal does not exist for your purposes. You only look at the Physical Stats.

The FAQ then goes on to say that you look at the Powers section. This is still not the Special Attributes section.

Go ahead and run it that way if you want. The rest of us will however feel no need to agree with you.

[Neraph]

Go ahead and run it that way if you want. The rest of us will however feel no need to agree with you.

Actually, you should feel fine to houserule that you do in fact get the extra Initiative Pass. The RAW, however, in no way bestows that power on this spell.

There's nothing wrong with houserules - there is only something wrong in misreading a spell description and trying to give it abilities which it clearly does not grant, all the while claiming that is how the spell works.

[yesferatu]

"Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea."
Well here's a fun question...what if my mage had rating 3 Synaptic Boosters (4 IP).
If he were to turn into a cheetah, would he actually be slower?

[sabs]

Yes
His synaptic boosters vanish
and he doesn't get the speed from the cheetah (which is dumb)

[Mordinvan]

"Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea."
Well here's a fun question...what if my mage had rating 3 Synaptic Boosters (4 IP).
If he were to turn into a cheetah, would he actually be slower?

As I understand it, yes he would be, unless you can find me a 'natural' cheetah with a rating 3 booster, which would be cool as all hell.

[Mordinvan]

Actually, you should feel fine to houserule that you do in fact get the extra Initiative Pass. The RAW, however, in no way bestows that power on this spell.

And you should feel fine to houserule that you don't get the extra pass, the RAW however does give it to you.

There's nothing wrong with houserules

Which is why you're free to gimp any rule or spell as much as you want too.

- there is only something wrong in misreading a spell description and trying to give it abilities which it clearly does not grant, all the while claiming that is how the spell works.

Or to remove abilities from a spell and say that is how it works.

[Neraph]

"Because the extra IP come from getting a new spine and set of nerves, the edge of 4 comes from.... I have no idea."
Well here's a fun question...what if my mage had rating 3 Synaptic Boosters (4 IP).
If he were to turn into a cheetah, would he actually be slower?

Yes, but not because cheetahs don't have synaptic boosters. I believe the bit about gear not transforming means that anything implanted ceases to function for as long as the spell persists also. You can also look at the Shift power and look at that later precedence of a similar ability.

Questions like these though are some reasons why the Polymorph spell was so hotly debated in Dungeons and Dragons and why it was re-written 3 times. I still don't know how it works over there, but in this rules set it's much easier to follow.

[Neraph]

And you should feel fine to houserule that you don't get the extra pass, the RAW however does give it to you.



Which is why you're free to gimp any rule or spell as much as you want too.


Or to remove abilities from a spell and say that is how it works.

Shapechange in no way whatsoever even hints that you get an extra IP. Nothing at all except a general description of what the spell thematically does. When you actually look at what the rules say you get, all you're left with is referencing the animal's stat block for physical stats only. Period. End of sentence. Game, set, match.

You are adding a theoretical tie between "transforms into" and "gains the initiative passes of the creature also" where one plainly does not exist.

[yesferatu]

What about movement?
Are we assuming that since the rules for shapechange don't say so, a transformed cheetah runs at metahuman speed?

[Neraph]

What about movement?
Are we assuming that since the rules for shapechange don't say so, a transformed cheetah runs at metahuman speed?

Technically the text itself does not state, so you'd keep your own movement speed. I think you should also refer to the movement rates of the critter in question, but that would be a house rule (although certainly a reasonable one).

[sabs]

Actually lets throw a massive headache into this party
p299 SR4a

IP is listed WITH the physical stats

The stats for great cat look like this:

B A R S C I L W Edg Ess Init IP
6 5 4 5 3 3 2 3 4 6 6 2
Movement: 10/60
Skills: Infiltration 3, Perception 2, Tracking 3, Unarmed Combat 4
Powers: Natural Weapon (Clws/Bite: DV 5P, AP 0)

so according to that spell.. if I turn into a great cat...
what exactly do I get?

[Neraph]

Actually lets throw a massive headache into this party
p299 SR4a

IP is listed WITH the physical stats

The stats for great cat look like this:

B A R S C I L W Edg Ess Init IP
6 5 4 5 3 3 2 3 4 6 6 2
Movement: 10/60
Skills: Infiltration 3, Perception 2, Tracking 3, Unarmed Combat 4
Powers: Natural Weapon (Clws/Bite: DV 5P, AP 0)

so according to that spell.. if I turn into a great cat...
what exactly do I get?

No, the full stat block is listed up there. Physical Attributes, as per the beginning of the book, only refers to Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength. That listing has Physical, Mental, and Special Attributes all listed together, including Condition Monitor.

EDIT: Pages 60-61 of SR4 detail the Attributes themselves. The Shapechange description tells you to look at the Critter's Section for the Physical Attributes only.

[Doc Chase]

So just to clarify:

If that description had simply said, "Look at the Critters section for attributes" instead of "physical attributes," then this entire argument would be null and void?

[sabs]

P211 - Shapechange spell description

Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)
critter, though the subject retains human consciousness. The
subject can only assume the form of a critter whose base Body rating
is 2 points greater or less than her own. Consult the Critters section,
p. 292, for the subject’s Physical attributes while in critter form. Add 1
to the critter’s Base attribute Ratings for every hit the caster generates.
Her Mental attributes remain unchanged.
This spell does not transform clothing and equipment. Magicians
in critter form can still cast spells, but cannot perform other tasks requiring
speech.
Critter form works like the Shapechange spell, but only allows the
subject to change into a specific non-paranormal animal. Each critter
form is a different spell (Eagle Form, Wolf Form, and so on).

P292

Attributes and Skills
Like normal characters, critters possess a complete set of attributes.
Since critters can range in size from a devil rat to a great dragon, critter
attributes can vary widely. In some cases, a critter’s capability in an
attribute may be so small that it has a rating of zero. If a critter has an
attribute of zero, it does not add dice for the linked attribute for any
tests, and it cannot default to that attribute. (Of course, if the critter
has a linked skill, it can still use it normally.)
A gamemaster may choose to alter attributes up or down, to reflect
individual critters that are stronger or weaker than the norm for
their species (for example, alpha males or runts). Attributes may be
adjusted up to three points in either direction. No attribute may be
reduced below zero.
Critters also possess skills, just like characters. In this case, skills
represent the creature’s natural instinctive knowledge and innate
ability. Natural predators, such as lions and wolves, will possess the
Unarmed Combat skill, for example. As with attributes, gamemasters
may adjust skills up or down for particularly capable or inept critters,
up to three points in either direction. No skill may be reduced below
zero. If a critter does not possess a skill, it is considered Unaware in
that skill (see p. 119).
Most Awakened critters possess a Magic attribute, indicating the
critter’s innate magical potential. This does not, however, give them the
ability to cast spells, conjure spirits, or astrally perceive/project, unless
they have the Magician quality

Now, on page 67
For Physical attributes it lists Agility, Body, Reaction and Strength
But IP is actually not listed anywhere, including under 'special attributes'

the spell references a completely worthless page, rules wise.
Assuming they didn't screw up (as they have in the past) then they reference Physical Attributes from page 67
But it's not clear what Initiative and IP are related to.
Initiative is a derived attribute
IP isn't listed anywhere as a type of attribute.

[Neraph]

So just to clarify:

If that description had simply said, "Look at the Critters section for attributes" instead of "physical attributes," then this entire argument would be null and void?

Yes, especially since it also clarifies that your Mental Attributes are unchanged.

Now, on page 67
For Physical attributes it lists Agility, Body, Reaction and Strength
But IP is actually not listed anywhere, including under 'special attributes'

the spell references a completely worthless page, rules wise.
Assuming they didn't screw up (as they have in the past) then they reference Physical Attributes from page 67
But it's not clear what Initiative and IP are related to.
Initiative is a derived attribute
IP isn't listed anywhere as a type of attribute.

I've only got an SR4 book, not one of the newer ones with all the nice spiffy errata. In my book IPs are listed with Initiative in Special Attributes. It is grouped together with Initiative.

We covered this page 2 or 3 - you only gain extra IPs when explicitly told to; look at Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters. Since then I've also said that nowhere in the spell description does it explicitly tell you that you gain extra actions or extra Initiative Passes, therefore you don't.

EDIT:

A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition, plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers. As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 132), which determines the character's Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements to Reaction or Intuition also affect Initiative.

Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character's record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 4.

[X-Kalibur]

I'll play some Devil's advocate here.

Nowhere in your quoted section does it say that something has to state it adds extra IPs.

Furthermore, the Initiative attribute is a combination of a physical and mental attribute, so obviously you can't take it during shapechange because your REA and can change and your INT may be higher or lower than that of the animal. In fact, we can call it a "derived attribute". As a matter of happenstance, your IP is derived from your metatype, as all metahumans have a base IP of 1 but some creatures have a base IP higher than that, but still limited to the (physical) cap of 4. Seeing as we derive the the initiave from the cheetahs base REA + hits and our own INT, instead of using our base form's initiative, it is safe to infer that we therefore must also imply that we derive our IPs from the form we change to, as we lose any non-magical enchancers to our own IPs.

I am fully aware that debating this with you [Neraph] is like smashing my face into a brick wall, so I'll leave my thoughts on the matter to this. Simply spouting "RAW this" and "RAW that" when it is terribly ambiguous doesn't actually help anything and your attitude on the matter is highly inflammatory.

[jimbo]

Keep in mind shapechange may not be as cool as people think:
1. It limits attacks to melee, which we have determined are inferior to firearms.
2. It does not allow you to wear armor.

So...yeah...a 12/12/12/12 bear *seems* badass, but in reality you get 1 attack a round and you take almost full damage from guns.
A mage transforming into a critter is really just asking to be shot.

Unless, of course, you have someone design Great Cat armor for you that is secured to your new form by a teammember. Then just add on a saddle, bridle,etc., a Dwarf-rider with appropriate weaponry and it's

BANZAI BLITZKRIEG...

[Emy]

Unless, of course, you have someone design Great Cat armor for you that is secured to your new form by a teammember. Then just add on a saddle, bridle,etc., a Dwarf-rider with appropriate weaponry and it's

BANZAI BLITZKRIEG...

I have a character currently working on a similar project, actually. Except I'm using the Fashion spell to turn troll armor into great cat armor, because it explicitly preserves the changed clothing's protective value.

That does require a caster and a spell, but hey.

edit: Furthermore,

1. It limits attacks to melee, which we have determined are inferior to firearms.

Instead of a great cat you could turn into an ape. Opposable thumbs, ahoy. Then use the Fashion spell to retailor a piece of armor to your new form and go to town.

[Mordinvan]

You are adding a theoretical tie between "transforms into" and "gains the initiative passes of the creature also" where one plainly does not exist.

I'm sorry, but this sounds very counter intuitive. "Transforms into" means you are now whatever the heck you shape changed into, without anything the game explicity includes in your description. This would include functional sensory organs, a digestive tract, lungs, a heart, and pretty much anything else I can think of. OR you can actually use some semblance of reason, and determine that if you transform into something, you should be it in all ways not included as exceptions.

[Neraph]

Nowhere in your quoted section does it say that something has to state it adds extra IPs.

A derived attribute, Initiative is the sum of Reaction and Intuition, plus any additional dice from implanted or magical reflex enhancers. As it sounds, Initiative is used to make Initiative Tests (p. 132), which determines the character's Initiative Score for a Combat Turn. Any enhancements to Reaction or Intuition also affect Initiative.

Some implants and magic may give a character extra actions to take in each Combat Turn. These are noted as extra Initiative Passes on the character's record sheet. The maximum number of Initiative Passes a character can have is 4.

Actually that's where it's stated.

I'm sorry, but this sounds very counter intuitive. "Transforms into" means you are now whatever the heck you shape changed into, without anything the game explicity includes in your description. This would include functional sensory organs, a digestive tract, lungs, a heart, and pretty much anything else I can think of. OR you can actually use some semblance of reason, and determine that if you transform into something, you should be it in all ways not included as exceptions.

What exactly does that do for you? Oh right, you check the critter's stat block for physical attributes only.

[Machiavelli]

And again i would say that this thread could be finally closed within SECONDS if one of our beloved Dev´s would give a comment about it. Pleeeeeeeeease....^^

[Mäx]

Neraph, could you tell me what exactly gives you the authority to say that "Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)critter" somehow isn't part of the rules for the spell.
If you transform in to a critter, then you are that critter except in ways that are defined by the later rules of the spell.
So you definedly get all the powers as well as IP:s of the creature, as those arent mentioned to differ from the base creature.

This leaves the chapeshifters as the only oddity, becouse somehow a jaquar shifter loses his second IP, becouse he can turn into a metahuman.

[Lansdren]

Neraph, could you tell me what exactly gives you the authority to say that "Shapechange transforms a voluntary subject into a normal (non-paranormal)critter" somehow isn't part of the rules for the spell.
If you transform in to a critter, then you are that critter except in ways that are defined by the later rules of the spell.
So you definedly get all the powers as well as IP:s of the creature, as those arent mentioned to differ from the base creature.

This leaves the chapeshifters as the only oddity, becouse somehow a jaquar shifter loses his second IP, becouse he can turn into a metahuman.

Whilst I agree with you I do think you are beating your head against a hard flat surface even if a Dev comes in and says you get the IP's he will still claim he is right.

The powers were a grey area until they were absolutely spelled out in the FAQ if this argument was being had a week before the FAQ came out he would be arguing you don't get the powers and shouting RAW at every opportunity. I feel confident that when/if we get a straight answer on this one it will show there are additional IP's for the relevant animals but until then its not worth arguing.

[Mäx]

Whilst I agree with you I do think you are beating your head against a hard flat surface even if a Dev comes in and says you get the IP's he will still claim he is right.

The powers were a grey area until they were absolutely spelled out in the FAQ if this argument was being had a week before the FAQ came out he would be arguing you don't get the powers and shouting RAW at every opportunity. I feel confident that when/if we get a straight answer on this one it will show there are additional IP's for the relevant animals but until then its not worth arguing.

Well the funny think is, i couldn't care less what the FAQ has to say, so i would never use it to defend my side of the debate.
In my honest opinione, only think the FAQ can be usefull is wiping your ass if you go and print it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Lansdren]

Well the funny think is, i couldn't care less what the FAQ has to say, so i would never use it to defend my side of the debate.
In my honest opinione, only think the FAQ can be usefull is wiping your ass if you go and print it out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

True, it contridicts itself and is generally sloppy, We ignore it in my group as its not a errata but I'll except people using it if the answer given makes sense and in this case the shapechange part passes the sanity check it just doesnt explain the full details hence the issue here. I only got wound up on this topic because someone started being rude and making it personal rather then about the rules.