 The awakened, and the broke, Currently the rules nerf mundanes |
  |
 Dec 3 2004, 09:52 PM
Post
#151
|
|
|
Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017  |
1) stealth works just fine against astral observation
2) you get a perception test if that astral entity following you gets too close (accidentally touches your aura) |
 |
 
|
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:05 PM
Post
#152
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Addition to #1) Stealth works just fine against Astral Perception, though the modifiers the perceiver uses are different than those used under normal Perception (most notable difference comes from lighting and being near open flames)
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:08 PM
Post
#153
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Clearly.
Or you can spend your A/B priority on Resources instead of Magic, get +8+2d6 Initiative from cyber (with room to grow), a ruth poncho that (however irrationally) gets better visibility mods than true invisibility, and save your Karma for boosting Skills and Attributes. And probably still have more cash left over than the mage. And, incidentally, your A Attributes, B Magic, C Race troll sorcerer can't do this out of the gate, because he can't start with more than 20kĄ (D Resources), and Force 1 sustaining foci are 15kĄ a pop. You'd have to acquire at least one of those foci after the game starts, when you have to deal with acquisition times, Street Index, and earning the money to afford it in the first place. I suggest going with the Increase Reflexes, because it's actually useful at Force 1, and saving up for the Improved Invisibility focus at at least Force 4, so you can affect simple things like the security camera at the Stuffer Shack.
Unless, of course, he's watching a security monitor or other technological sensor - even low-light goggles! - which your Force 1 Invisibility has NO chance to affect, or using any one of the other basic common-sense spotting techniques suggested in this thread, that anyone who hasn't had their head in a hole for the last fifty years could think of, or find out about given two minutes research on the net.
Assuming you've spent the Karma to initiate and take Masking, and further Karma to initiate to a high enough grade to conceal all the foci you're carrying around, and don't blunder into a ward with those foci active.
But cost for spells and magical materials, including consumable magical materials like expendable spell foci and conjuring materials. They're expensive compared to bullets, too. And, while my sorcerer doesn't buy spells, that's because he's spending pretty much all of his downtime doing research, and I'm sure that the sorcery library that he needs for that (and to learn the spells once he's crafted the formulae) cost more than the sammy has ever spent on ammo. Or even weapons. Even including the set of custom pistols that he had handcrafted for each of the group members as a gift. And "no ammo cost", even in its most limited literal sense, assumes that the mage never uses a gun, which is, IME, rare. Sorcerers have combat options that mundanes don't, but there are always situations where shooting something just works better. (I've found bringing an SMG to a spell fight to be quite effective. Magicking other mages is always tricky, but most of them don't deal well with a couple of 12S bursts from a H&K with 12 dice behind them.)
Which requires spell selection, which costs Karma and either money or time, and which directly counters your claim that mages can concentrate all their Karma into a single skill.
More limited than a rigger using sensor-enhanced gunnery. Or anyone shooting blind or with non-visual "sight" like ultrasound.
Again, directly countering your claim that mages can concentrate all their Karma into a single skill.
Only useful against other Awakened, so they can be disregarded by the same argument you've put forth to disregard magical counters to Invisibility and so on.
Play that dead band's song...
What I said was that mages have a lot more stuff to spread their Karma around on than mundanes, countering your claim that they can spend it all raising just one skill. You responded with an example of a sorcerer who has, as is typical, spent half of his Karma on initiating, some undisclosed amount more on spells and other non-skill uses, and more on skills other than Sorcery. I don't know how you think this does anything but reinforce my point. For another example, the previously mentioned sorcerer and sammy started at the same time, in the same campaign, and have earned basically the same amount of Karma... around 100 points, give or take a few. My sorcerer has raised his Sorcery skill once, from 6 to 7. That was a cheap raise, because he's got a 7 Willpower. The rest of his Karma has gone (in descending order of amount) into initiation, spells, and other skills, mostly non-magical skills. The sammy, meanwhile, has raised his Pistols skill from 6 to 9, bumped his Willpower high enough that Manabolting him would be a challenge (and if I had to contend with spell defense doing it, I'd just shoot him... it'd work better), boosted a number of other skills, and picked up a few that he didn't have at chargen. Not to mention improving his capabilities pretty much across the board with 'ware upgrades at no Karma cost. |
||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Dec 3 2004, 10:46 PM
Post
#154
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
Yea, but generally people don't play it that way. Does the book actually say stealth works against astral observation, or do you just assume it? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 3 2004, 11:30 PM
Post
#155
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Hey Sainthax, I tried to back your play but there is just too many of them.
The reason why they are fighting so hard is because they are lording their uber magic users over their ignorant gaming partners. Allow me to suggest a completely new approach: YOU IRON HANDED MUNCHKIN BASTARDS KNOW MAGIC IS BROKEN BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE SOURCE OF YOUR CORRUPT POWERMONGERING!!!!!!!! No thanks are needed..... :eek: :rotfl: :lick: :D Cheers, Solstice |
|
|
|
|
Dec 3 2004, 11:48 PM
Post
#156
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
Ah, yes, the contentless ad hominem with smileys so you can claim it's just a joke. The last resort of people with no actual argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:08 AM
Post
#157
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Well you just proved:
a) your an asshat b) you wouldn't know an attempt at humor if it reared up and disembowled you c) both a and b |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:24 AM
Post
#158
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
1. You're
2. You are -Siege |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:29 AM
Post
#159
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
My apologies; I was mistaken. It's the first resort of people with no actual argument. The next resort would appear to be the straight-up contentless flame, with lousy grammar for the bonus points.
I've also found that it's easier to recognize attempts at humor when they succeed at being humor. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:31 AM
Post
#160
|
|
|
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,065 Joined: 16-January 03 From: Fayetteville, NC Member No.: 3,916 |
Oh c'mon John - I think he's trying to be funny. Call it a gut feeling.
-Siege |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 12:31 AM
Post
#161
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
your witty reparte overwhelms me *yawn*
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 01:58 AM
Post
#162
|
|
|
Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
Listen, the result of all of this boils down to something very simple...
The claim is this - magic is broken because: 1) Spells don't have ammo. 2) Spells aren't resisted as easily by mundanes as they are by mages, and this is viewed as making them 'almost impossible' to resist. 3) Spells can't be taken from your person like a gun. 4) The average joe isn't going to neccessarily know how to defeat certain spells, like say Invsibility. I counter with the following, making my argument against as simple as possible: 1) No, spells do not have ammo. They can theoretically be cast again and again forever. But shooting a gun - even a silenced gun - doesn't have a decent chance of causing you to get a headache/tired/bleed from your nose/any other interpretation of drain you choose. Furthermore, sustaining spells without a sustaining focus or quickening causes a +2 target number modifier. There are a number of ways around this, but first, sustaining foci aren't exactly cheap, and you also have to re-bond them every time you change what spell they're attuned to. Secondly, centering MAY be able to get by the +2 penalty, but centering while invisible is a very difficult thing, as most certering skills require speaking, dancing, or otherwise interacting with the world in a way that requires either time or noise. Even meditation, the most silent of all centering skills, generally requires you sit down and make some willpower rolls to tune out the outside world. As to the ulimited range and accuracy of spells, remember two things. First, combat spells and elemental manipulations ARE subject to vision and cover penalties. It's a little known rule, but it's in there. Second, in the Grimoire 2nd edition, there's a range penalty chart for spells. I still use it. Spells have a VERY good range, but there are still penalties for slamming a guy who's far away. 2) The average runner will be rolling between 4-6 dice against willpower-resisted spells, 4-6 against intelligence-resisted spells, and (in my experience) between 5-9 dice for body resisted spells. Willpower-resisted spells are far and away the best 'bang for buck' spells in terms of drain to effect. Compared to the mage's 6 sorcery + 6 (or more) spell pool dice, that doesn't seem like much. But examine it this way - I'll provide you with two examples. A) Mage casts spell, 6 sorcery + 6 spell pool, force 5 spell. Gets, say, 5 successes, because the target has a 5 willpower. Target rolls, blows a Karma, gets between 3-4 successes to resist. Ow. Guy #2, a street sam, rolls 6 SMGs + 4 combat pool, against his target number of 4 (assuming 2 points of sight/movement penalties, and he has a smartlink). He gets 5 successes, as is statistically 'average'. Mage rolls 6 combat pool, and gets lucky! Total dodge! Then the sam makes the same roll again, because firing a 3 round burst is a simple action. Mage only has 2 combat pool left. Gets two successes! He's STILL got to resist between 10 and 12 S damage (depending on ammo type), and he can only use body. While the mage can cast one spell per round (as stacking spells gets drain-nasty in a hurry), the sam can crank out two shots. Four, if he's using two SMGs, though target numbers increase dramatically. B) A mage, sneaking up on a guy, is invisible. To sense the mage, Joe the Gunbunny needs to pierce the spell to see the mage. Not exactly easy, is it? If the mage got a lot of successes, Joe's probably screwed. However, Joe's a street sam, and has hearing amp - two extra dice! To *hear* the mage coming, and to know generally where the mage is, Joe needs to roll 8 dice, and get two or more successes at target number 4. Why only 4? Well, if most invisibility-using mages don't spend points on the stealth skill, as Solstice asserts they don't, there's nothing making the mage quieter than anyone else. Now, if the street sam wanted to sneak up on the mage, we'll assume the following - the sam is wearing camo BDUs, because he's... well, a street sam... and uses his stealth skill. Assuming an even halfway decent roll on his stealth skill, and the camos adding +2, it's going to be MUCH harder for the mage to tell Joe's coming, unless the mage has spirits or a detect enemies spells. Even the spirits only add so much, because they have to defeat Joe's stealth, too. No, it doesn't specifically say stealth can defeat astral sight, but it also doesn't specifically say stealth will hide you from cameras. Recognize that even astral sight has to rely on LOS, and a lot of stealth is staying behind objects and minimizing your profile. Besides, there are alternatives to spells for mundanes - camo, ruthenium polymers and just good stealth can even the odds in terms of hiding. Larger guns or guns with automatic capability are great for more damage. Cyberware will make you more resistant to damage, faster, nastier when facing the opposition. Sure, there's no replacement for clairvoyance or heal, but that's just part of the game. 3) This - this is true. Spells can't be taken from you. But I just regard this as a subtle advantage mages have. And mundanes can learn things like unarmed combat, get densiplast guns, ceramic knives, et cetera. And if you have to get in someplace to kill someone, and they have metal detectors... well, it's time to figure out how to bypass the detectors and bring your guns anyway. 4) The average joe is most certainly not going to know how to defeat certain spells, it's true. But runners aren't average joes - runners have a duty, lest they be killed, to learn how to deal with any kind of opposition. Saying mages are unbalanced because average people won't know how to deal with them is akin to saying street sams are unbalanced because average joes won't know the details of possible cyberware they have, or riggers are unbalanced because you won't neccessarily know the specs on their drones. It's a major part of a runner's JOB to learn to how to not get killed, surprised, et cetera. If a runner does not know how to deal with a certain thing, he'll learn. Or he'll be dead. A good runner is a knowledgeable runner. A dead runner is one who doesn't do his homework. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 4 2004, 04:40 AM
Post
#163
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
This is deceptive. There aren't range penalties, it's just the Grimoire went into detail about the fact that at some ranges (I believe it started at several kilometers?) people start getting partial concealment from the smog and soforth between mage and target. In space assuming little debris, infinite magnification means infinite range. Or would if the user could cast there. There's always a catch. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 4 2004, 01:25 PM
Post
#164
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
A rose by any other name. It's still a range modifier. Although the table does say "The distances given in the above table are for flat, ground-level terrain at sea level under clear skies". The table breaks down as:
Range (m) Penalty 0-150 0 151-300 2 301-600 4 601-1250 6 1251-2500 8 2501-5000 10 5001+ Target not visible Now of course, in a crowded Seattle downtown street under average smog conditions, that target at 200m is probably going to cost you a target penalty of something like 6-8. EDIT: My mistake, it IS a range mod table. It's listed as an optional rule to prevent slapping people with manabolts kilometers away. Sounds like a good balancing device, imho |
|
|
|
|
Jan 7 2005, 09:04 PM
Post
#165
|
|||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Actually the argument I (and many others) use is: You don't have to know how it works exactly! If you know it is there (and you do) you are warned. Same with the cop. Sure he didn't know the price. But as a neighbour brat learned he has been trained to recognise a joint by smell. And we got a very clean playground ;-) Same with a lot of stuff - you don't have to know the details to use it. Our customer knows sh*** about field effect transistors or n-tier programming and all but he can still use a computer just fine without it.
Don't have to. After hearing about hackers my father got himself an expert on the stuff - Me! And the same can (and will) be done by mundane characters afraid of mages. They ask around and/or get professional help. It is like wiring my house - I call my cousin and hand him the cables, lights and beer. He's the electrician! Before I went to live in a big city, I went to the local policestation and got myself an appointment with the "officer for home security". For a nominal fee they explained to me in great detail how to secure my home. I bet you there is something similar in 2060. You can make money with it, it does not hurt you so Ares/Lone Star/Wachtmeister Mattes will be there to do it
Actually: Not much. And even less in the magic section (Actually: Drain /2 would either go away or at least round to shaft). The basic magic system works. Some new stuff is not to my liking (the social parts of the adept powers in SoTa2064) but the races are a bigger problem IMHO (raise the costs, more stress on racism in the text) Birdy |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 19th September 2025 - 02:06 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.