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SaintHax
I love ShadowRun. LOVE IT! B/c of the way damage is soaked, and tracked, I think it has the best rules of any game. Somewhat streamlined, but realistic enough. HOWEVER, it has some broke arse stuff in it. Mainly, mundanes suck. This isn't an opinion, it's math... see below.

To cast combat, detection, health, illusion, and manipulation spells: you need to learn the specialization sorcery (spellcasting).

If you want to shoot something, you need to pick one of the following base skills: pistols, SMG, rifles, assault rifle, or shot gun (or laser weapons). And, if you choose rifle, and pick up an assault rifle... there's a huge difference in ShadowRun skill wise. The same rules apply to melee weapons.

Now we go to use them. The mage fires a stun bolt at a troll willpower 2 troll, he needs 2's to hit. You fire a gun at the quickness 1 troll, you need a 4. Now really, from the offensive side, this balances out. B/c if it was a willpower/quickness 6 elf, the mage would need a 6, and you'd still need a 4. From the Troll, Elf standpoint, the Elf is getting screwed. He's half the troll's size, and yet is just as easy to hit as the quickness 1 troll. There's combat pool to dodge, but it's not balanced, and another discussion.

The mage also can cast invisibilty (which is broke), treat, powerbolt, and powerball using just his will based specialization of sorcery (spellcasting). A mundane would need all these base skills: stealth (Qk), Biotech (In), a ranged weapon (Qk), and thrown weapon (gernades, St). Now I'm not saying that the mundane should be equal to the awakened. That's why I'm not knocking all the additional things a spell slinger can do, that a mundane can't. A sorcerer can have a spell to attack any stat: illusions can pretty much take out those low in intelligence, mana spells wreck low willpower, powerball still attacks body, and decrease attribute (Chr) can even paralyze an uncharming troll. Sweet. A mage also has natural concealment. A spell can be smuggled through anywhere it's not active... not so a gun. In the areas where mundanes and awakened overlap, the mage should not have such a clear advantage in both power and growth potential.

SR3 was a huge improvement. The linking of skills to attributes balanced a lot of power gaming. In SR2, only true role players or summoners ever had a charisma over 1, b/c it wasn't needed. However, in SR3 we started drifting away from a prime concept: tech and magic don't mix. Increase cyber attribute... big suck. Vehicle mask... big suck.

Last point, more spells are broke than cyber/bioware... AND... the core rules (M&M) suggest not letting new characters start w/ cultured bioware, despite it being common in 2064. Limits mundanes more.


+<:-) SaintHax

P.S. I play as both a troll sorcerer and mudane (human) covert ops
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (SaintHax)
However, in SR3 we started drifting away from a prime concept: tech and magic don't mix.

That is not a prime concept of the setting, that is your own prejudice about the concepts.

As for spells being horribly overpowered, they cost about as much as all those skills a mundane needs to match the effects (at chargen), have different conditions in which they prosper and fail, and have each been specifically debated in these forums. If magic is overpowered in games you play, it is due to the GM not realizing how blatantly cheap certain anti-magic countermeasures are (cheapest is 2 nuyen).
Halabis
I see no problem with that. Magic is better for a reason. Its magic! You are essentialy taking a normal person and giving him something extra. Therefore he should be better. The only time I see this being a problem is if your group is powergamers, and each person wants to be "the best" at what he does.
Spookymonster
If a mage wants to upgrade a F4 Fireball to F5, it'll cost him some karma, a couple hundred bucks (spell formula), and enough time to learn it.

A street sam can upgrade his weapon just by prying it from the former owner's dead hand, for a few lead slugs, in 3 seconds flat.
LinaInverse
Your math is off.

First off, any half-wit gunbunny worthy of the name is going to have a Smartlink 2. So your target numbers are going to be 2 not 4, barring distance and modifiers. If they don't have this basic cyber, then they deserve to die. Two, gunbunnies don't have to deal with Drain, which when you're talking about Force 6+ spells, isn't trivial. And finally, I have no pity for min-maxers who run around with a Charisma 1 and expect to get anywhere other than the sewers and the slums.

It's not true that mages only have to have Willpower. Granted, his most important skills are Will-based. But any mage who neglects his Body is begging to die, and a mage that neglects his Quick and Int is going to lose out on Combat Pool.

This isn't to say that mages don't have obvious advantages; concealability of their most powerful weapons, versatility, etc. But they pay for it in Karma. Most mages don't have every single spell you lay out; they have to pay Karma to learn them (other than at trivial and near-useless Force levels).
Nikoli
Also, your mage can't pry spells from the mind of a cold-dead mage and hock them on the street.

You can however do teh same with guns you don't need.
Solstice
Ok well someone refute his statement the invisibility if broken. I certainly can't it seems really broken.
Herald of Verjigorm
QUOTE (Solstice)
Ok well someone refute his statement the invisibility if broken. I certainly can't it seems really broken.

1: it only affects sight, so microphones, pressure plates, beaded curtains, and 5.87 thousand drekloads of other subtle observation methods can alert even the most pathetic guard to the existence of an invisible target.
2: ultrasound vision knocks the blindfire penalty to +4, or +2 in melee
3: grenades don't care about invisibility, and see point 1 about how to aim close
4: dual natured guard doggies can still eat your invisible mage
4b: cyberzombies can still shoot your invisible mage, as well as ghouls and certain SURGEs
5: wards
6: the mage behind the masking ward who dispells the invisibility without giving away his nature as a mage
6b: the mage behind the masking ward who casts and sustains a force 1 entertainment spell to track a large red dot where the invisible mage is going
7: suppressive fire
8: the fire elemental or other spirit sent by the mage who didn't want to show up in the flesh to deal with a mage-alert signal

Do you need more, or maybe a list of why a good stealth roll evades most of those?
ES_Riddle
There are three reasons that help to keep invisibility from being broken. It is resisted, just like any other indirect illusion. It doesn't protect you from any other senses (smell, hearing, ultrasound, etc.) and if you don't have improved invis, then security cameras will still pick you up. It has to be sustained to work.

The sustaining means that you have to have a mage you trust and that mage has to trust you enough to take his astral signature in to the job site and get out alive. If it is a mage casting it on herself then she's probably going to want a sustaining focus, so that is more karma and nuyen on the spell.

Other sense detection is limited but means that invisible isn't undetectable. You couldn't get into a department store dressing room without someone realizing you were there with an invisibility spell, why do you think that a corp R&D lab will be different? Astrally, your aura is still visible, so a mage can astrally perceive and then either dispel the invisibility, bananamolt you, or whatever (control thoughts to go back and kill your teammates is nice).

The resistance is a big one and I think it gets overlooked. You have to have a decent force invis to make sure that someone doesn't pick you out. Also, if they keep looking for you because you've tripped a motion sensor or a heat reader or something, then their successes will keep stacking up until they eventually see through it and spot you.
John Campbell
Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery skill and the Karma costs for each individual spell, the sorcerer spent an A/B Priority or a huge lump of Build Points to get the ability.
Solstice
Ok i'm satisfied...

Now someone list the reasons why Improved Invisibility isn't broken...


Solstice
QUOTE (John Campbell)
Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery skill and the Karma costs for each individual spell, the sorcerer spent an A/B Priority or a huge lump of Build Points to get the ability.

That is irrelevant to the discussion really....but yes I know this.
John Campbell
QUOTE (Solstice)
QUOTE (John Campbell @ Nov 30 2004, 01:45 PM)
Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery skill and the Karma costs for each individual spell, the sorcerer spent an A/B Priority or a huge lump of Build Points to get the ability.

That is irrelevant to the discussion really....but yes I know this.

It has nothing to do with invisibility, but it's entirely relevant to the original post's claim that mages in general are broken. They're powerful, but they paid for that power, and sacrificed power in other areas to get the points/priority to do so.
Sahandrian
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that any dual-natured creature, aspected mage, or full mage, as well as a number of adepts, can still see an invisible mage through Astral Perception. They can act while seeing him with a +2 TN on their actions, except for the dual-natured ones who have no penalty (it's natural sight for them), and Adepts can probably Center it away.

Mundanes have a few tools, most notably Ultrasound Vision and that thermal-sense bioware. There's FAB for anyone who can afford it, too. Several other chemical weapons could also be helpful. And I think drones operating on their own can get around it too, but I don't have Rigger 3 so I'm not sure.

And then you have to remember that they still make noise, so sound-based perception tests can give them away, especially when they're dealing with those Samurai who pick up ear enhancements. Granted, whoever faces them still has a +8 TN modifier to attack, but that's when you remember that Suppressive Fire is your friend, as are grenades.

And don't forget that the mage is going to have a +2 modifier to everything but damage resistance (I think) thanks to sustaining a spell, in addition to wound modifiers from drain. And if they try to get around the sound-based detection with the Stealth or Silence spells, they'll be getting more drain and an extra +2. Also, casting one spell while sustaining another will leave the newly-cast one weaker than the first thanks to the higher TNs. Stealth may have a casting TN of 4, but that's going up to 6 while sustaining.

Which brings up the last point, that everyone who might be affected by the illusions gets to resist them. And if one mundane in a group of 10 happens to see (or hear) through the spell, he can inform his friends that there's someone trying to be sneaky nearby.

Did I miss any?

Edit: Well, I missed several posts while flipping through SR3 and CC...
Lindt
QUOTE (John Campbell)
QUOTE (Solstice @ Nov 30 2004, 01:48 PM)
QUOTE (John Campbell @ Nov 30 2004, 01:45 PM)
Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery skill and the Karma costs for each individual spell, the sorcerer spent an A/B Priority or a huge lump of Build Points to get the ability.

That is irrelevant to the discussion really....but yes I know this.

It has nothing to do with invisibility, but it's entirely relevant to the original post's claim that mages in general are broken. They're powerful, but they paid for that power, and sacrificed power in other areas to get the points/priority to do so.

Hes getting back on track. It happens once in a blue moon around here I know.
Yes, men with mojo are powerhouses, but compairing to a sammy (who I consider somewhat disposable anyhow) its really apples and oranges. Your shamen needs a boatload of real life experance (aka karma) to improve his primary skill.
SaintHax
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (SaintHax)
However, in SR3 we started drifting away from a prime concept: tech and magic don't mix.

That is not a prime concept of the setting, that is your own prejudice about the concepts.

Not true. One of the older authors mentioned it in an interview. Hence why for no other reason you have higher target numbers to affect anything w/ more tech in them. Losing magic based on essence can be justified w/ the loss of your own personal body. But it doesn't justify why it's harder to heal a street sam. By normal logic, it would be easier b/c there is less of him to heal. Even if you disagree, some of the older players hear may remember which author addressed the relationship of tech and magic.
Herald of Verjigorm
The actual setting is dealing with magic and technology that seem to be completely divergent paths of influence. However, the two paths are advancing toward a crossroads. Magic research includes efforts to make the most magical ability available to the most people, and technology research includes trying to isolate and recreate the factor that gives magic to some. At current, there are some magical options that work just fine on any other subject, but still need a mage, and bioware has isolated and recreated a few difficult metahuman properties (but is still mostly mundane animal organs and improved human ones).

Beyond that, one author once saying something does not indicate that all the game designers agreed with that premise or that those who did agree with that premise would always hold to it. High technology still makes magic harder but it isn't a flat "no mage can have a datajack or affect anyone who has one" and it never was.
SaintHax
QUOTE (LinaInverse)
Your math is off.

First off, any half-wit gunbunny worthy of the name is going to have a Smartlink 2. <<snip>>

It's not true that mages only have to have Willpower. Granted, his most important skills are Will-based. But any mage who neglects his Body is begging to die, and a mage that neglects his Quick and Int is going to lose out on Combat Pool.

First, I rarely have time to play in a home game b/c I'm playtesting mods to be used. Most of my gaming experience (in the last 3 years, anyway) has come from Cons. Virtual Seattle was fairly big, I played, GM'd, and ended up staff on it. I now play independent SR games at cons, and ShadowRun Missions when I can. So... I see a LOT of players and characters.

At a table of eight I see 3 to 6 awakened characters. I've never sat down at a table w/o a mage, but I've seen tables have to be reseated so that it's not solely magical.

Now, my math is not off. Yes, a gun bunny will have smartlink, and a mage will get a focus. The list goes on and on, on both sides, so it was irrelevant for the nature of our discussion to add more variables in, when none of these variables tip the scale in either direction.

The same for your argument for a mage needing body. The mundane needs willpower for defense too. We aren't talking about defense, we are talking about what is needed to buy skills. BUT... since you brought it up. The sorcerer (who doesn't conjure mind you) doesn't need charisma. If another mage hits him w/ Decrease Attr (Chr), he has natural spell defense: the mundane doesn't. This is another advantage for the magic user. But as I said, I'm willing to concede a certain number of advantage to magic users based on priorities. After a while though... it's got to stop. Where the mages duplicate what skills do, I think is a good line in the sand.
SaintHax
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
The actual setting is dealing with magic and technology that seem to be completely divergent paths of influence. However, the two paths are advancing toward a crossroads. Magic research includes efforts to make the most magical ability available to the most people, and technology research includes trying to isolate and recreate the factor that gives magic to some. At current, there are some magical options that work just fine on any other subject, but still need a mage, and bioware has isolated and recreated a few difficult metahuman properties (but is still mostly mundane animal organs and improved human ones).

Beyond that, one author once saying something does not indicate that all the game designers agreed with that premise or that those who did agree with that premise would always hold to it. High technology still makes magic harder but it isn't a flat "no mage can have a datajack or affect anyone who has one" and it never was.

I agree w/ this. It was just a side comment to add to the mages overlapping mundanes. As you decrease their boundries, then the balance tips more. I'd be happy to let this one line amoungst and arguement to fade away. It's trivial in scope.l
Cray74
QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 05:47 PM)
To cast combat, detection, health, illusion, and manipulation spells: you need to learn the specialization sorcery (spellcasting).

You HAVE to learn the specialization? Plain sorcery isn't enough?

QUOTE
If you want to shoot something, you need to pick one of the following base skills: pistols, SMG, rifles, assault rifle, or shot gun (or laser weapons).  And, if you choose rifle, and pick up an assault rifle... there's a huge difference in ShadowRun skill wise.  The same rules apply to melee weapons.


Meh. A little defaulting never hurt, and having two or three weapon skills is no different than having two or three magical skills (conjuring, enchanting, sorcery). Besides, if the mage wants a back-up weapon that doesn't inflict drain, he also has to learn the weapon skills in addition to the magical skills.

I just saw a very funny situation (2 Friday's back) where a mage with a fireball and stunball looked pretty goofy trying to be useful in a situation where his only offensive spells would've hit his own team, so my dorf decker (pistols 4) ended up killing 3 of 4 terrorists in the room. (Unfortunately, what the mage really needed - mind probe - he didn't have, so while the killings were morally satisfying, they kind of dead-ended the mission for a while.)

QUOTE
Now we go to use them.  The mage fires a stun bolt at a troll willpower 2 troll, he needs 2's to hit.  You fire a gun at the quickness 1 troll, you need a 4.


My merc generally needs a 2 or so, thanks to a smart link.

QUOTE
The mage also can cast invisibilty (which is broke),


After discovering suppressive fire rules and ultrasound, I never had a problem with invisibility.

QUOTE
A sorcerer can have a spell to attack any stat: illusions can pretty much take out those low in intelligence, mana spells wreck low willpower, powerball still attacks body, and decrease attribute (Chr) can even paralyze an uncharming troll.


And an Ares Predator II with Smartlink 2 and EX rounds kills them most of them D-E-D ded. With a Defiance Super Shock for a 10S-Stun backup for the people you'd like to leave in non-gobbetized form.

Mages have their advantages, but I wouldn't say they're unbalanced compared to mundanes. A mundane stuffed with cyber is a very deadly threat in his own way. A non-cybered mundane with an assault rifle and heavy armor is also a powerful foe.
Kagetenshi
Keep in mind that unless I'm quite mistaken (which is not impossible), by a strict reading of Improved Invisibility you not only need to have a high enough Force to overcome the Object Resistance of a camera, you also can only affect things within a (Magic) meter radius.

~J
Herald of Verjigorm
Will your angst spread to cyberware and bioware eventually because the unaugmented human can be outdone by the sammy with a smartlink or the face with tailored pheremones?

I am fine with actual debate over the capabilities of options, and I can understand an irritation at such a magiaclly favored tendency in the games you have experienced, but try to remember that each use of BP for one purpose prevents those from being used for something else. While sorcery provides a nice bit of versatility from spell choice, there are ways (often low enough cost to justify their use) which will inhibit the mage (and drain can be a killer if you try to show off).

If you want, we may be able to scrounge a little and come up with a nice list of ways to make PCs hate playing mages when you GM that aren't even to wildly outlandish or unexpected.
Solstice
QUOTE (Cray74)

After discovering suppressive fire rules and ultrasound, I never had a problem with invisibility.

Ok I don't think having to have a tactical computer and/or a Battletac system OR an ultrasound sight should be necessary to deal with improved invisibility. It's really not an issue for players as it sounds from your post. It's an issue for GM's and players that walk the land slinging manaballs with improved invisibility.

Whoever is saying "Mages can see invisible mages" : You just defeated your own argument. Of course mages can see other mages, but we are talking about mundanes vs. magic....not magic vs. magic. I don't think we should promote an "arms race" with awakened characters like SaintHax is saying.
SaintHax
Here's the most important reason why it's broke, they fuxxed up the rules. The force of invisibilty is of little importance. The best intelligence (outside of over normal max, and bio enhanced, and a friend mage boosting... not normal at all stuff) a mundane will have is a 6. They made invisibility and all or nothing spell. So, if you get more than 6 successes w/ a force 1 invisibility, NO mundanes can detect you. You can easily exploit this by buying a couple of force 1 sustaining foci, placing them on your adept and street sam buddy... and casting them invisible. I can feel the arguement of "what kind of player", but policing players does not mean the rule is correct. It's a hack to band-aid a broken rule. As for this other stuff.....

QUOTE
1: it only affects sight, so microphones, pressure plates, beaded curtains, and 5.87 thousand drekloads of other subtle observation methods can alert even the most pathetic guard to the existence of an invisible target.


Mics are good, but would only be at secure locations. It still doesn't protect you from the invisible sword weilder. I like it the best though. Pressure plates also screw the stealth guy... and this is magic vs. skill in balance. Beaded curtains would probably screw the skill guy, again... only available at portals. Helpful, but I don't feel it's enough to balance a force 1 spell this powerful.

QUOTE
2: ultrasound vision knocks the blindfire penalty to +4, or +2 in melee


True, ultra sound is the check and balance, but it's not the most common piece of cyberware. You'll never see a bar bouncer w/ it. (Never is a hyperbole, let's not bring out long shots). I see only a percentage of street sams sit down at my table w/ it, and my covert ops hasn't been able to afford it yet either. Harder to get than a force 1 spell by a long shot.

QUOTE
3: grenades don't care about invisibility, and see point 1 about how to aim close


You have to find them first... and they can't be next to you... or a friend.... or the data storage you are protecting... or the reactor.

QUOTE
4: dual natured guard doggies can still eat your invisible mage
4b: cyberzombies can still shoot your invisible mage, as well as ghouls and certain SURGEs


Dual natured guard dogs are more rare than ultra vision. Cyber zombies are something a runner may never see in his life. If we are going to give this much to the corp, then let's assume the mage has another trick up his sleeve too.

QUOTE
5: wards


Thought to be rare, now a mage can make a good living putting these up. However, you can mask past them. Wards are also expensive. This is better than ultra sound, and if the invisibility spell was fixed so that force meant something, would probably be a good balance. As it stands: force 1... vs. expensive wards. Force 1 still wins.

QUOTE
6: the mage behind the masking ward who dispells the invisibility without giving away his nature as a mage


Mages are wicked expensive. Not a feasible solution for non-AAA sec runs. I submitt this as my response for 8: spirits sent in response as a solution too. Good stealth roll doesn't win here either. If we have a mage, he can just sustain a detect spell. The counter beats them both.

QUOTE
7: suppressive fire


Still have to detect them first. Plus, they get to attack back. One mage w/ a force 1 invisibilty on sustaining focus, should wax 3 or more sustaining firing mundanes. Also, a good stealth roll loses here. Once detected, they don't need to surpress the stealth guy.
SaintHax
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Will your angst spread to cyberware and bioware eventually because the unaugmented human can be outdone by the sammy with a smartlink or the face with tailored pheremones?

I have no angst. My main character is a Troll Sorcerer. And other than a few spells, such as imp. invisibilty that I feel are broke, I don't feel I'm too powerful, but rather that mundanes aren't given enough options, and that I can overlap many of their areas of expertise. Since I play test, I agree to play mundanes, b/c we had to be told to have some mundanes, else it would be a awakened party.

I believe balanced would be close... if not restored if they'd just make melee a base skil, and the weapon catagories a specialization. Or maybe divide the base skill by reach. But it sucks otherwise. So, I don't want to "nerf" mages... I want to see a balanced restored and hope that designers take note of the current flaws.

The bioware situation that you mentioned is what we are talking about b/c tailored pheremones and smart links are made for two different reasons. Power bolt and pistols are pretty much made for the same reason.
Herald of Verjigorm
1: There have been debates at how easy it is to make an invisible person easy to locate, sand is another fun one. They do penalize the stealth skill, but as a TN bonus to the perciever instead of immediately (well, TN 2 hearing test or so) alerting someone by the sound of footsteps in sand when no one is walking around.
2: Yes, it's mainly just useful for removing the mage once someone notices. It's still a world of hurt for the mage who states "I don't need more than one die to dodge each shot coming my way."
3: I did forget to mention filling the room with tear gas or your favorite chemical response (by spray or grenade). Usually expensive, but something that should be considered for anything worth really guarding.
4: A mage who isn't going up against opposition that would have some dual natured security (not all, but enough to sound the alert if not countered) is slumming and similar to a sniper making his living at carnival games and selling the toys. Entirely possible, but a waste of ability and the character should know this.
5: The only actual cost to wards is in time for the mage to set them up. A shaman with a conjured spirit should be able to get a force 5 ward in a reasonably large area in a few hours (less than one standard workday) that should last 3 weeks on average. One ward every 2 days of that force should be easy enough that a legal mage-type wouldn't mind it as a 2 point dayjob edge (same time as the flaw, 5 times the pay).
6: Yes, but the mage doing the run should be earning as much (or at least 2/3 as much) from his work as any legally employed mage can as a security mage. If he's working for less, see counter-counter-point 4.
7: Yes, I should've listed this with grenades and other area effect counters, but a hail of 30 gel rounds from the three shooters (or 60, no need for ambidexterity with this rule) should give any detected intruder some trouble once they open the door without much collateral damage. The main advantage of it (and the other area ones) is that once noticed, invisibility no longer provides any defense while more directed attacks still face a penalty.

I too miss the Firearms/Pistols/Slivergun (4/5/6) of one of my old PCs. There was an effort a wihle back in balancing the ranged combat into Longarms (rifle-types), smallarms (or short, something, meant one-hander types), heavy and launch. I know that my games never bother with a different skill for two different types of rifle just because of the RoF, so maybe the fracturing of combat skills did go too far and needs to be pulled back a little.
Joe Outside
QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 02:43 PM)
Here's the most important reason why it's broke, they fuxxed up the rules.  The force of invisibilty is of little importance.  The best intelligence (outside of over normal max, and bio enhanced, and a friend mage boosting... not normal at all stuff) a mundane will have is a 6.  They made invisibility and all or nothing spell.  So, if you get more than 6 successes w/ a force 1 invisibility, NO mundanes can detect you.

The only problem with this line of thought is that the number of successes on most spells is limited by the force of the spell. Give me a sec and I'll go look up page number...

[EDIT] ...or not. That'll teach me to open my mouth before getting proof...[/EDIT]
Cray74
QUOTE (Solstice)
QUOTE (Cray74 @ Nov 30 2004, 02:23 PM)

After discovering suppressive fire rules and ultrasound, I never had a problem with invisibility.

Ok I don't think having to have a tactical computer and/or a Battletac system OR an ultrasound sight should be necessary to deal with improved invisibility. It's really not an issue for players as it sounds from your post. It's an issue for GM's and players that walk the land slinging manaballs with improved invisibility.


I'm confused. I just suggested two methods of dealing with Improved Invisibility without resorting to BattleTac and/or a tactical computer, and you quoted them. How does my post sound otherwise?

QUOTE (SaintHax)
Here's the most important reason why it's broke, they fuxxed up the rules. The force of invisibilty is of little importance. The best intelligence (outside of over normal max, and bio enhanced, and a friend mage boosting... not normal at all stuff) a mundane will have is a 6. They made invisibility and all or nothing spell. So, if you get more than 6 successes w/ a force 1 invisibility, NO mundanes can detect you.


What, mundanes can't use ultrasound, bead curtains, sand, and rain puddles? Mundanes with spatial recognizer or olfactory booster have no chance to spot the invisible? What happened to the invisibility-defeating effect of thermosense organs?
Eyeless Blond
QUOTE (SaintHax @ Nov 30 2004, 02:43 PM)
Here's the most important reason why it's broke, they fuxxed up the rules.  The force of invisibilty is of little importance.  The best intelligence (outside of over normal max, and bio enhanced, and a friend mage boosting... not normal at all stuff) a mundane will have is a 6.  They made invisibility and all or nothing spell.  So, if you get more than 6 successes w/ a force 1 invisibility, NO mundanes can detect you.  You can easily exploit this by buying a couple of force 1 sustaining foci, placing them on your adept and street sam buddy... and casting them invisible.  I can feel the arguement of "what kind of player", but policing players does not mean the rule is correct.

That's true; if you can get the 7 successes (remember you only need to match the number of successes to pierce illusions) against the TN 4 to cast Improved Invis (which you'll hit once in 128 tries with Sorcery(Spellcasting7)) you'll be able to do just fine against someone without the Stealth(Alertness) specialization with only a Force 1 spell. I'm not even so sure that's a big problem. *However*, there is a stipulation on Object Resistance that a spell's Force must be equal or greater than half something's OR to affect it (see the section on OR for details). This means you'll have to use a Force 4 Improved Invis to make it past those OR 8 cameras. OR 8 I'd say is even a bit low for a camera; I'd be more tempted to label a charge-coupled device (the part of a camera that actually records) a "Highly processed Object" meaning you'll need a Force 5 or better to affect those OR 10+ cameras. That's the balancing factor there.

As for microphones and dual-natured guard animals not being common, keep in mind that in the Sixth World the Invisability spell is well-known, and digital recording technology at least has been around for well over a century and a half by then. I'd be very surprised if you couldn't find microphones and detailed sound-processing software in very nearly every corp that really wanted to have them. As for guard animals (or plants; Guardian Vines and the like are around too), those would indeed be a bit more expensive, and probably be limited to places that employ larger in-house security forces. Keep in mind though it's probably cheaper to keep a half dozen hellhounds in an on-site kennel than to pay for a single guard's salary, hazard pay, insurance, and everything else, and they'd be especially useful in a world where magic is more common than it is here. smile.gif

The big idea to keep in mind when designing Shadowrun security is that everybody knows that magic exists. This means that all security companies will be making different assumptions based on the fact that it does exist, and so you will see more precautions being taken against, for example, Invisible people, or people who can Levitate, or people who can throw Fireballs around. Further realize that the Sixth World is much more paranoid than our current world, and spends much more on security than we do right now, and you realize that things like kennels of dual-natured attack animals, rooms filled with FAB, and ultrasound sensors aren't really that far-fetched.
Eyeless Blond
Oh, and one more thing: Inproved Invis does nothing against vehicle sensors with a rating above I think 2, as they all have ultrasound vision at that level. Even Sensors 0 has "ultrasound proximity detection," which could be ruled to bypass Invis as well. It's not like ultrasound sensors are actually rare in the Sixth World or anything; they have a fairly low Availability, in fact, even for the eye mod version. They're just rare in your imagination, and *only* in your imagination. smile.gif
Cray74
QUOTE (SaintHax)
Since I play test, I agree to play mundanes, b/c we had to be told to have some mundanes, else it would be a awakened party.


As a playtester for BT, I have to say it sounds like you're making a mistake common to playtesters: you're not investigating the system (or new rules) in depth, just catching things that jump out at you, then claiming the cursory examination shows the system is broken.

Sure, with just the Mark I Mundane Human Eyeball, a typical human isn't going to notice an invisible character. However, there's more options out there for detection, and some more common than you're claiming.

For example, unless the mage sticks to small time targets, basic security of 2064 may well include suites of pressure sensors and ultra-sound systems. Criminals with improved invisibility have been plaguing security for decades by 2064. Heck, the proximity sensors of basic autonav sensor suites in your average family car do not work on a visual basis.
Solstice
I'm not a complete newbie to SR and I've never played with anyone who used an ultrasound sight "in case I run into those crazy invisible mages".

Also I thought suppressive fire was indirect fire and only possible using certain items/skills that are more merc/soldier oriented...not your average runner.

What you guys are stating is that you joe blow runner should have tactical comp and/or allies to provide indirect or suppressive fire, ultrasound sights, beaded curtains, boosted hearing/olfactory. I simply think it's too much.

Do you think realisitically that any security designer has invisibility in mind when designing anything other than a AAA rated facility? I would think they would be more concerned about your average b&e. You know playing the odds for cost/benefit.

Sure there are options out there but seriously...how many people use ultrasound sights on their guns or cybereyes? It's just not balanced and with all the modifiers to perception test a person would be lucky to ever figure out where an invisible mage is. And by then they would be geeked.
Kagetenshi
Eyeless Blond: first off, as I already stated, if you accept that OR matters you must also take the neighboring restriction to Force meters in radius on the effect. Second off, vehicle sensors receive a -3 to Sensor Tests against all targets in line-of-sight, so even Rating 1 Sensors really should not be slowed down by a mere inability to detect a target in a tiny part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

~J
John Campbell
QUOTE (Solstice)
I'm not a complete newbie to SR and I've never played with anyone who used an ultrasound sight "in case I run into those crazy invisible mages".

Every mundane PC I've ever played has had at least an ultrasound sight - or, more commonly, goggles - for dealing with invisibility and thermal smoke. It's a cheap and easy solution. If you're going to reject it out of hand, well, sounds like your problem, not mine.
Solstice
Who said I was rejecting it out of hand? I'm giving an observation from my somewhat limited experience. I don't know who really walks around with ultrasound goggles on or in their back pocket. And when would you know to put them on? The guy is invisible..

Really this is a matter of logic more than anything...which is why the pro magic side is failing.
Cray74
QUOTE (Solstice)
Also I thought suppressive fire was indirect fire and only possible using certain items/skills that are more merc/soldier oriented...not your average runner.

Suppressive fire is done with any fully automatic weapon. You hose down an area with many bullets. Any street punk or minimum wage rentacop with a full auto SMG can use suppressive fire. So, yeah, I think it's a pretty common solution to improved invisibility that doesn't call for tactical computers or battletac. It calls for a 300-nuyen Philippino knock-off of an Uzi III.

QUOTE
Do you think realisitically that any security designer has invisibility in mind when designing anything other than a AAA rated facility?


The first time a Stuffer Shack owner calls up and says, "I've got some mage punk who runs into my store and steals things while invisible. What've you got to spot the little bastard?" the security designer is going to come up with cheap security systems to spot invisible punks.

He's going to do this because the Marketing and Sales Department giving him orders realizes that there's not many super-secure megacorp facilities (i.e., it's a small market, even if individual sales have big price tags), but there's thousands of little stores, homes, and insecure people who would love to be able spot those dirty, steenking invisible mages. Especially after a clever marketing campaign convinces everyone that invisible mages are lurking in every corner.

(Do you know otherwise? Update your Ares SecureHome security suite for only 100 nuyen.gif a month and you'll find those dastardly mages. Minimum of a 3-year contract, early termination penalties apply.)

QUOTE
Sure there are options out there but seriously...how many people use ultrasound sights on their guns or cybereyes?


My mundane PCs use ultrasound goggles as a rule of thumb, usually at character creation. The goggles are usually in a jacket pocket, or worn during runs.
draco aardvark
QUOTE (Solstice)
Do you think realisitically that any security designer has invisibility in mind when designing anything other than a AAA rated facility? I would think they would be more concerned about your average b&e. You know playing the odds for cost/benefit.

But cost is practically nill! Stick a bead curtain in the hallway, or if you want to look more professional use those translucent plastic hangie things they have to keep cold air inside the walk-in freaser.
Though the awakend may be few in numbers, having absolutly no defenses against said few is silly, like saying there's no need for a guard because there are very few people who know how to pick a lock.
Solstice
If you guys really play like that then IMO your playing what you know not what your character knows. My character currently has never been around magic and he doesn't understand the "strange powers" of the groups mage (which really isn't that far off from what I know as a player but that is beside the point).

You guys make it sound so common like everyone knows about improved invisibility and they pack around special goggles just for that purpose ("hey don't let those sneaky mages get the jump on ya chummer")....kinda dumb when you think about it but whatever strokes your goat. I'm done bickering. Now I will concentrate on a house rule for imp. invis. maybe a time limit?
Bigity
If the character doesn't know yet, he will learn in a hurry. That's not an unbalance in the game mechanics, it's the truth to a little saying, "Knowledge is power."

If you are going to put a time limit on a sustained spell, you have to put it on all sustained spells, IMO, otherwise you're creating balance issues.
John Campbell
No, we're playing characters who have been living in a world where magic is a fact of life for their entire lives. Moreover, we're playing characters who are in jobs where being able to deal with mages is a necessary survival trait. That being the case, it seems like it might be a good idea to a) find out a little about what these mages can do, and b) take whatever steps are possible to counter it. Basic information is readily available in-character, as are some common sense countering steps. So, since my characters are not completely stupid, they get that information and take those steps.
Solstice
Ok maybe your character isn't...but every NPC isn't either? Come on tis stupid to view the world like that but it's your game not mine. I don't see my characters or NPCs being exposed to magic their whole life even if they DON'T grow up sheltered from the street. I can see a local shaman maybe in the neighborhood being viewed as like a "village wise man" if you will. But by no means would all the mundane characters know exactly how magic works, who can use it etc...that is just rediculous regardless of their background. I guess if you want to play lame jaded characters that have (apparently) seen and lived everything then it's ok.
Cray74
QUOTE (Solstice)
If you guys really play like that then IMO your playing what you know not what your character knows.


I'd like to think it's more a matter of the points I spent on the Knowledge Skill "Magical Background," usually at rating 2-4, for all my mundane PCs. In fact, they do know about invisibility, LOS spell casting issues, and how to combat spirits, because it's very significant to their profession.

The origins of the knowledge vary. My dorf decker perused Matrix sites on magic and owns every copy of the tridshow Karl Kombat Mage. My merc has worked with (and against) combat mages for over a decade. If he didn't hang out with the unit's combat mage during his tours, his years as a shadowrunner have put him in the company of PC mages for months at a time.

QUOTE
Ok maybe your character isn't...but every NPC isn't either? Come on tis stupid to view the world like that but it's your game not mine. I don't see my characters or NPCs being exposed to magic their whole life even if they DON'T grow up sheltered from the street. ...

Now I will concentrate on a house rule for imp. invis. maybe a time limit?


Rather than inventing new rules, I'd recommend that you adjust your house setting to include more features of the canonical Shadowrun setting. Shadowrun's canon includes many movies, trid shows, documentaries, and college classes covering magic in the Sixth World. Everything from Karl Combat Mage to the evening news ("Pervert mage makes women strip in the streets with Mind Control Spells. Stay tuned at 11 to find out how you can avoid this fate.") should make the basics of magic available to your average Joe, not to mention runners.

Quite realistically, several hours on some magic Matrix site would justify spending a karma point or two on the Knowledge Skill "Magical Background."

Heck, car manufacturers can teach everyone a certain basic premise of magic: line of sight. Every car made since the 2030s has had one-way windows just to protect occupants from exterior spells. Ask the car salesman about the window tint or get the explanation off the car maker's Matrix site.

Does every NPC retain the information about magic? No, probably not anymore than they remember how rockets work when the evening news talks about another space mission. But the information about magic should be very common in the Sixth World.
Herald of Verjigorm
Security guard training will include "Mages, the tricks they may try, and what can make them fail." Any location that can't afford a 3 hour seminar on basic countermeasures isn't worth hiring shadowrunners to break into.
Bigity
While I completely agree that every wageslave out there is going to have barely any idea about real magic (as opposed to the sim and trideo stuff he sees), SR doesn't follow the hijinks of John Doe Wageslave as he lives his daily life.

It follows professional (in the sense that they are paid to perform) criminals and the trained personell who try to stop them. People who:
A) Win or lose (and die) by what they know
B) Spend lots of time and effort keeping on top of SOTA (including mundane techniques to eliminate or shrink the advantage magic gives)

I don't see what's so unreasonable. Even if a character started off knowing very little, he would learn, and eventually decide spending a few hundred nuyen on some goggles is worth it, or that it might be a good idea to pay a magician to put a ward around his place, or whatever. He won't remain ignorant of the more common magical techniques for long, if he's going to be a successful runner.
Garland
You're talking like the concept of invisibility is brand new. In 2064, there have been invisible people for more than 40 years! Even if the average person doesn't know how magic works, and sees mages as enigmatic ciphers, they've still probably heard an "invisible mage" joke, seen a slapstick sitcom routine involving invisible people, watched a shadowrunner movie where invisibility figured heavily (Karl Kombatmage, perhaps), and maybe even read a cautionary article about invisible peeping toms or stalkers or something. The average person doesn't have to be a Th.D. to know about invisibility. I mean, c'mon, how many movies RIGHT NOW feature something of the sort and a cheap way to detect it (Predator, Invisible Man, Hollow Man, etc.).

I'd also like to say that in the paranoid '60's, a situation like what's described by Cray74 sounds reasonable. I'd probably want to invisible-proof my home, especially if 20/20 or Dateline, or whatever news show they've got in 2064 had run a scare-story on it.
Cray74
QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Security guard training will include "Mages, the tricks they may try, and what can make them fail." Any location that can't afford a 3 hour seminar on basic countermeasures isn't worth hiring shadowrunners to break into.

And the fancier ones can use interactive simsense training. Throw your future rentacops into a 20 nuyen.gif per session MMORPG that simulates some "real" magic tricks.

How many Sixth World kids were playing mages (or Neil the Ork Barbarian) in online RPGs from the time their parents got them their first set of 'trodes?
Solstice
Whatever, that's fine. We just have two different views of what our worlds should be like. I've always thought of my nonmerc runners as 'semi-normal people in desperate/extenuating circumstances" it's not like they grow up watching magical combat. And I doubt sim or TV can disemminate accurate knowledge on any subject especially magic. It's fucking tv and movies for christ sake.

ok i'm done now no more it's a pointless conversation. dead.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Solstice)
ok i'm done now no more it's a pointless conversation.

wavey.gif
Garland
What's inaccurate (for example) about "invisible people still disturb the curtains when they come in through the window"? That seems a pretty simple thing to get across in any medium.
Bigity
Yes, but the same thing happens today.

You have shows like ER, for example, which portrays medical treatment and doctors in a certain way. It's not very accurate, but sometimes hits on truths.

However, anyone with a desire can study more in-depth and technical materials, and actually learn how to give injections, or draw blood. Then add some schooling. What does that give you? EMT techs, nurses, lab assistants.

Now add in some company or school that is dedicated to training people about medicine and students that dedicate large amounts of time and effort. what do you have? Doctors, who can do things that people with no training or education in the area can understand.
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