The awakened, and the broke, Currently the rules nerf mundanes Options

[SaintHax]

I love ShadowRun. LOVE IT! B/c of the way damage is soaked, and tracked, I think it has the best rules of any game. Somewhat streamlined, but realistic enough. HOWEVER, it has some broke arse stuff in it. Mainly, mundanes suck. This isn't an opinion, it's math... see below.

To cast combat, detection, health, illusion, and manipulation spells: you need to learn the specialization sorcery (spellcasting).

If you want to shoot something, you need to pick one of the following base skills: pistols, SMG, rifles, assault rifle, or shot gun (or laser weapons). And, if you choose rifle, and pick up an assault rifle... there's a huge difference in ShadowRun skill wise. The same rules apply to melee weapons.

Now we go to use them. The mage fires a stun bolt at a troll willpower 2 troll, he needs 2's to hit. You fire a gun at the quickness 1 troll, you need a 4. Now really, from the offensive side, this balances out. B/c if it was a willpower/quickness 6 elf, the mage would need a 6, and you'd still need a 4. From the Troll, Elf standpoint, the Elf is getting screwed. He's half the troll's size, and yet is just as easy to hit as the quickness 1 troll. There's combat pool to dodge, but it's not balanced, and another discussion.

The mage also can cast invisibilty (which is broke), treat, powerbolt, and powerball using just his will based specialization of sorcery (spellcasting). A mundane would need all these base skills: stealth (Qk), Biotech (In), a ranged weapon (Qk), and thrown weapon (gernades, St). Now I'm not saying that the mundane should be equal to the awakened. That's why I'm not knocking all the additional things a spell slinger can do, that a mundane can't. A sorcerer can have a spell to attack any stat: illusions can pretty much take out those low in intelligence, mana spells wreck low willpower, powerball still attacks body, and decrease attribute (Chr) can even paralyze an uncharming troll. Sweet. A mage also has natural concealment. A spell can be smuggled through anywhere it's not active... not so a gun. In the areas where mundanes and awakened overlap, the mage should not have such a clear advantage in both power and growth potential.

SR3 was a huge improvement. The linking of skills to attributes balanced a lot of power gaming. In SR2, only true role players or summoners ever had a charisma over 1, b/c it wasn't needed. However, in SR3 we started drifting away from a prime concept: tech and magic don't mix. Increase cyber attribute... big suck. Vehicle mask... big suck.

Last point, more spells are broke than cyber/bioware... AND... the core rules (M&M) suggest not letting new characters start w/ cultured bioware, despite it being common in 2064. Limits mundanes more.


+<:-) SaintHax

P.S. I play as both a troll sorcerer and mudane (human) covert ops

[Herald of Verjig...]

[Halabis]

I see no problem with that. Magic is better for a reason. Its magic! You are essentialy taking a normal person and giving him something extra. Therefore he should be better. The only time I see this being a problem is if your group is powergamers, and each person wants to be "the best" at what he does.

[Spookymonster]

If a mage wants to upgrade a F4 Fireball to F5, it'll cost him some karma, a couple hundred bucks (spell formula), and enough time to learn it.

A street sam can upgrade his weapon just by prying it from the former owner's dead hand, for a few lead slugs, in 3 seconds flat.

[LinaInverse]

Your math is off.

First off, any half-wit gunbunny worthy of the name is going to have a Smartlink 2. So your target numbers are going to be 2 not 4, barring distance and modifiers. If they don't have this basic cyber, then they deserve to die. Two, gunbunnies don't have to deal with Drain, which when you're talking about Force 6+ spells, isn't trivial. And finally, I have no pity for min-maxers who run around with a Charisma 1 and expect to get anywhere other than the sewers and the slums.

It's not true that mages only have to have Willpower. Granted, his most important skills are Will-based. But any mage who neglects his Body is begging to die, and a mage that neglects his Quick and Int is going to lose out on Combat Pool.

This isn't to say that mages don't have obvious advantages; concealability of their most powerful weapons, versatility, etc. But they pay for it in Karma. Most mages don't have every single spell you lay out; they have to pay Karma to learn them (other than at trivial and near-useless Force levels).

[Nikoli]

Also, your mage can't pry spells from the mind of a cold-dead mage and hock them on the street.

You can however do teh same with guns you don't need.

[Solstice]

Ok well someone refute his statement the invisibility if broken. I certainly can't it seems really broken.

[Herald of Verjig...]

[ES_Riddle]

There are three reasons that help to keep invisibility from being broken. It is resisted, just like any other indirect illusion. It doesn't protect you from any other senses (smell, hearing, ultrasound, etc.) and if you don't have improved invis, then security cameras will still pick you up. It has to be sustained to work.

The sustaining means that you have to have a mage you trust and that mage has to trust you enough to take his astral signature in to the job site and get out alive. If it is a mage casting it on herself then she's probably going to want a sustaining focus, so that is more karma and nuyen on the spell.

Other sense detection is limited but means that invisible isn't undetectable. You couldn't get into a department store dressing room without someone realizing you were there with an invisibility spell, why do you think that a corp R&D lab will be different? Astrally, your aura is still visible, so a mage can astrally perceive and then either dispel the invisibility, bananamolt you, or whatever (control thoughts to go back and kill your teammates is nice).

The resistance is a big one and I think it gets overlooked. You have to have a decent force invis to make sure that someone doesn't pick you out. Also, if they keep looking for you because you've tripped a motion sensor or a heat reader or something, then their successes will keep stacking up until they eventually see through it and spot you.

[John Campbell]

Don't forget that, in addition to the Sorcery skill and the Karma costs for each individual spell, the sorcerer spent an A/B Priority or a huge lump of Build Points to get the ability.

[Solstice]

Ok i'm satisfied...

Now someone list the reasons why Improved Invisibility isn't broken...

[Solstice]

[John Campbell]

[Sahandrian]

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that any dual-natured creature, aspected mage, or full mage, as well as a number of adepts, can still see an invisible mage through Astral Perception. They can act while seeing him with a +2 TN on their actions, except for the dual-natured ones who have no penalty (it's natural sight for them), and Adepts can probably Center it away.

Mundanes have a few tools, most notably Ultrasound Vision and that thermal-sense bioware. There's FAB for anyone who can afford it, too. Several other chemical weapons could also be helpful. And I think drones operating on their own can get around it too, but I don't have Rigger 3 so I'm not sure.

And then you have to remember that they still make noise, so sound-based perception tests can give them away, especially when they're dealing with those Samurai who pick up ear enhancements. Granted, whoever faces them still has a +8 TN modifier to attack, but that's when you remember that Suppressive Fire is your friend, as are grenades.

And don't forget that the mage is going to have a +2 modifier to everything but damage resistance (I think) thanks to sustaining a spell, in addition to wound modifiers from drain. And if they try to get around the sound-based detection with the Stealth or Silence spells, they'll be getting more drain and an extra +2. Also, casting one spell while sustaining another will leave the newly-cast one weaker than the first thanks to the higher TNs. Stealth may have a casting TN of 4, but that's going up to 6 while sustaining.

Which brings up the last point, that everyone who might be affected by the illusions gets to resist them. And if one mundane in a group of 10 happens to see (or hear) through the spell, he can inform his friends that there's someone trying to be sneaky nearby.

Did I miss any?

Edit: Well, I missed several posts while flipping through SR3 and CC...

This post has been edited by Sahandrian: Nov 30 2004, 07:04 PM

[Lindt]

[SaintHax]

[Herald of Verjig...]

The actual setting is dealing with magic and technology that seem to be completely divergent paths of influence. However, the two paths are advancing toward a crossroads. Magic research includes efforts to make the most magical ability available to the most people, and technology research includes trying to isolate and recreate the factor that gives magic to some. At current, there are some magical options that work just fine on any other subject, but still need a mage, and bioware has isolated and recreated a few difficult metahuman properties (but is still mostly mundane animal organs and improved human ones).

Beyond that, one author once saying something does not indicate that all the game designers agreed with that premise or that those who did agree with that premise would always hold to it. High technology still makes magic harder but it isn't a flat "no mage can have a datajack or affect anyone who has one" and it never was.

[SaintHax]

[SaintHax]

[Cray74]

[Kagetenshi]

Keep in mind that unless I'm quite mistaken (which is not impossible), by a strict reading of Improved Invisibility you not only need to have a high enough Force to overcome the Object Resistance of a camera, you also can only affect things within a (Magic) meter radius.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

Will your angst spread to cyberware and bioware eventually because the unaugmented human can be outdone by the sammy with a smartlink or the face with tailored pheremones?

I am fine with actual debate over the capabilities of options, and I can understand an irritation at such a magiaclly favored tendency in the games you have experienced, but try to remember that each use of BP for one purpose prevents those from being used for something else. While sorcery provides a nice bit of versatility from spell choice, there are ways (often low enough cost to justify their use) which will inhibit the mage (and drain can be a killer if you try to show off).

If you want, we may be able to scrounge a little and come up with a nice list of ways to make PCs hate playing mages when you GM that aren't even to wildly outlandish or unexpected.

[Solstice]

[SaintHax]

Here's the most important reason why it's broke, they fuxxed up the rules. The force of invisibilty is of little importance. The best intelligence (outside of over normal max, and bio enhanced, and a friend mage boosting... not normal at all stuff) a mundane will have is a 6. They made invisibility and all or nothing spell. So, if you get more than 6 successes w/ a force 1 invisibility, NO mundanes can detect you. You can easily exploit this by buying a couple of force 1 sustaining foci, placing them on your adept and street sam buddy... and casting them invisible. I can feel the arguement of "what kind of player", but policing players does not mean the rule is correct. It's a hack to band-aid a broken rule. As for this other stuff.....

[SaintHax]