1) stealth works just fine against astral observation
2) you get a perception test if that astral entity following you gets too close (accidentally touches your aura)
Full Version: The awakened, and the broke
Addition to #1) Stealth works just fine against Astral Perception, though the modifiers the perceiver uses are different than those used under normal Perception (most notable difference comes from lighting and being near open flames)
| QUOTE (SaintHax) |
| I've played these characters; I have no more brain power than the rest of you; |
Clearly.
| QUOTE |
| I've seen a wide variety in a decent, nay, better than average test environment. You can thwart a magic user, but that doesn't mean he's balanced. You can spend 2 spell points, 30k nuyen, and 2 karma to bond w/ the 2x force 1 sustaining foci, and have +3d6 init, and invisibility that whips stealths ass by your second mission. |
Or you can spend your A/B priority on Resources instead of Magic, get +8+2d6 Initiative from cyber (with room to grow), a ruth poncho that (however irrationally) gets better visibility mods than true invisibility, and save your Karma for boosting Skills and Attributes. And probably still have more cash left over than the mage.
And, incidentally, your A Attributes, B Magic, C Race troll sorcerer can't do this out of the gate, because he can't start with more than 20kĄ (D Resources), and Force 1 sustaining foci are 15kĄ a pop. You'd have to acquire at least one of those foci after the game starts, when you have to deal with acquisition times, Street Index, and earning the money to afford it in the first place. I suggest going with the Increase Reflexes, because it's actually useful at Force 1, and saving up for the Improved Invisibility focus at at least Force 4, so you can affect simple things like the security camera at the Stuffer Shack.
| QUOTE |
| And, someone posted the odds of casting a perfect invisibility was 1 in 100+, but he forgot to include the average 5 spell pool dice which changes the odds to aprox 1:3... and that's so that an Int 6! mundane has NO chance to see you. |
Unless, of course, he's watching a security monitor or other technological sensor - even low-light goggles! - which your Force 1 Invisibility has NO chance to affect, or using any one of the other basic common-sense spotting techniques suggested in this thread, that anyone who hasn't had their head in a hole for the last fifty years could think of, or find out about given two minutes research on the net.
| QUOTE |
| Not really a requirement. And these are just a few things. Concealment, |
Assuming you've spent the Karma to initiate and take Masking, and further Karma to initiate to a high enough grade to conceal all the foci you're carrying around, and don't blunder into a ward with those foci active.
| QUOTE |
| no ammo cost, |
But cost for spells and magical materials, including consumable magical materials like expendable spell foci and conjuring materials. They're expensive compared to bullets, too.
And, while my sorcerer doesn't buy spells, that's because he's spending pretty much all of his downtime doing research, and I'm sure that the sorcery library that he needs for that (and to learn the spells once he's crafted the formulae) cost more than the sammy has ever spent on ammo. Or even weapons. Even including the set of custom pistols that he had handcrafted for each of the group members as a gift.
And "no ammo cost", even in its most limited literal sense, assumes that the mage never uses a gun, which is, IME, rare. Sorcerers have combat options that mundanes don't, but there are always situations where shooting something just works better. (I've found bringing an SMG to a spell fight to be quite effective. Magicking other mages is always tricky, but most of them don't deal well with a couple of 12S bursts from a H&K with 12 dice behind them.)
| QUOTE |
| versatility, |
Which requires spell selection, which costs Karma and either money or time, and which directly counters your claim that mages can concentrate all their Karma into a single skill.
| QUOTE |
| range, |
More limited than a rigger using sensor-enhanced gunnery. Or anyone shooting blind or with non-visual "sight" like ultrasound.
| QUOTE |
| bonding to weapon foci, |
Again, directly countering your claim that mages can concentrate all their Karma into a single skill.
| QUOTE |
| spell defense dice, |
Only useful against other Awakened, so they can be disregarded by the same argument you've put forth to disregard magical counters to Invisibility and so on.
| QUOTE |
| and the band plays on. |
Play that dead band's song...
| QUOTE |
| I've seen nothing solid against any of these claims. You tried w/ the many magic skills that you thought were needed, I said they aren't, and you just come back calling my character "half-gimped"; which would imply that he's a cripple, and I've never had anyone sit down at the table and find my character want. |
What I said was that mages have a lot more stuff to spread their Karma around on than mundanes, countering your claim that they can spend it all raising just one skill. You responded with an example of a sorcerer who has, as is typical, spent half of his Karma on initiating, some undisclosed amount more on spells and other non-skill uses, and more on skills other than Sorcery. I don't know how you think this does anything but reinforce my point.
For another example, the previously mentioned sorcerer and sammy started at the same time, in the same campaign, and have earned basically the same amount of Karma... around 100 points, give or take a few. My sorcerer has raised his Sorcery skill once, from 6 to 7. That was a cheap raise, because he's got a 7 Willpower. The rest of his Karma has gone (in descending order of amount) into initiation, spells, and other skills, mostly non-magical skills.
The sammy, meanwhile, has raised his Pistols skill from 6 to 9, bumped his Willpower high enough that Manabolting him would be a challenge (and if I had to contend with spell defense doing it, I'd just shoot him... it'd work better), boosted a number of other skills, and picked up a few that he didn't have at chargen. Not to mention improving his capabilities pretty much across the board with 'ware upgrades at no Karma cost.
| QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm) |
| 1) stealth works just fine against astral observation 2) you get a perception test if that astral entity following you gets too close (accidentally touches your aura) |
Yea, but generally people don't play it that way.
Does the book actually say stealth works against astral observation, or do you just assume it?
Hey Sainthax, I tried to back your play but there is just too many of them.
The reason why they are fighting so hard is because they are lording their uber magic users over their ignorant gaming partners.
Allow me to suggest a completely new approach:
YOU IRON HANDED MUNCHKIN BASTARDS KNOW MAGIC IS BROKEN BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE SOURCE OF YOUR CORRUPT POWERMONGERING!!!!!!!!
No thanks are needed.....
Cheers,
Solstice
The reason why they are fighting so hard is because they are lording their uber magic users over their ignorant gaming partners.
Allow me to suggest a completely new approach:
YOU IRON HANDED MUNCHKIN BASTARDS KNOW MAGIC IS BROKEN BUT YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE SOURCE OF YOUR CORRUPT POWERMONGERING!!!!!!!!
No thanks are needed.....
Cheers,
Solstice
Ah, yes, the contentless ad hominem with smileys so you can claim it's just a joke. The last resort of people with no actual argument.
Well you just proved:
a) your an asshat
b) you wouldn't know an attempt at humor if it reared up and disembowled you
c) both a and b
a) your an asshat
b) you wouldn't know an attempt at humor if it reared up and disembowled you
c) both a and b
1. You're
2. You are
-Siege
2. You are
-Siege
My apologies; I was mistaken. It's the first resort of people with no actual argument. The next resort would appear to be the straight-up contentless flame, with lousy grammar for the bonus points.
I've also found that it's easier to recognize attempts at humor when they succeed at being humor.
I've also found that it's easier to recognize attempts at humor when they succeed at being humor.
Oh c'mon John - I think he's trying to be funny. Call it a gut feeling.
-Siege
-Siege
your witty reparte overwhelms me *yawn*
Listen, the result of all of this boils down to something very simple...
The claim is this - magic is broken because:
1) Spells don't have ammo.
2) Spells aren't resisted as easily by mundanes as they are by mages, and this is viewed as making them 'almost impossible' to resist.
3) Spells can't be taken from your person like a gun.
4) The average joe isn't going to neccessarily know how to defeat certain spells, like say Invsibility.
I counter with the following, making my argument against as simple as possible:
1) No, spells do not have ammo. They can theoretically be cast again and again forever. But shooting a gun - even a silenced gun - doesn't have a decent chance of causing you to get a headache/tired/bleed from your nose/any other interpretation of drain you choose. Furthermore, sustaining spells without a sustaining focus or quickening causes a +2 target number modifier. There are a number of ways around this, but first, sustaining foci aren't exactly cheap, and you also have to re-bond them every time you change what spell they're attuned to. Secondly, centering MAY be able to get by the +2 penalty, but centering while invisible is a very difficult thing, as most certering skills require speaking, dancing, or otherwise interacting with the world in a way that requires either time or noise. Even meditation, the most silent of all centering skills, generally requires you sit down and make some willpower rolls to tune out the outside world.
As to the ulimited range and accuracy of spells, remember two things. First, combat spells and elemental manipulations ARE subject to vision and cover penalties. It's a little known rule, but it's in there. Second, in the Grimoire 2nd edition, there's a range penalty chart for spells. I still use it. Spells have a VERY good range, but there are still penalties for slamming a guy who's far away.
2) The average runner will be rolling between 4-6 dice against willpower-resisted spells, 4-6 against intelligence-resisted spells, and (in my experience) between 5-9 dice for body resisted spells. Willpower-resisted spells are far and away the best 'bang for buck' spells in terms of drain to effect. Compared to the mage's 6 sorcery + 6 (or more) spell pool dice, that doesn't seem like much. But examine it this way - I'll provide you with two examples.
A) Mage casts spell, 6 sorcery + 6 spell pool, force 5 spell. Gets, say, 5 successes, because the target has a 5 willpower. Target rolls, blows a Karma, gets between 3-4 successes to resist. Ow. Guy #2, a street sam, rolls 6 SMGs + 4 combat pool, against his target number of 4 (assuming 2 points of sight/movement penalties, and he has a smartlink). He gets 5 successes, as is statistically 'average'. Mage rolls 6 combat pool, and gets lucky! Total dodge! Then the sam makes the same roll again, because firing a 3 round burst is a simple action. Mage only has 2 combat pool left. Gets two successes! He's STILL got to resist between 10 and 12 S damage (depending on ammo type), and he can only use body. While the mage can cast one spell per round (as stacking spells gets drain-nasty in a hurry), the sam can crank out two shots. Four, if he's using two SMGs, though target numbers increase dramatically.
B) A mage, sneaking up on a guy, is invisible. To sense the mage, Joe the Gunbunny needs to pierce the spell to see the mage. Not exactly easy, is it? If the mage got a lot of successes, Joe's probably screwed. However, Joe's a street sam, and has hearing amp - two extra dice! To *hear* the mage coming, and to know generally where the mage is, Joe needs to roll 8 dice, and get two or more successes at target number 4. Why only 4? Well, if most invisibility-using mages don't spend points on the stealth skill, as Solstice asserts they don't, there's nothing making the mage quieter than anyone else. Now, if the street sam wanted to sneak up on the mage, we'll assume the following - the sam is wearing camo BDUs, because he's... well, a street sam... and uses his stealth skill. Assuming an even halfway decent roll on his stealth skill, and the camos adding +2, it's going to be MUCH harder for the mage to tell Joe's coming, unless the mage has spirits or a detect enemies spells. Even the spirits only add so much, because they have to defeat Joe's stealth, too.
No, it doesn't specifically say stealth can defeat astral sight, but it also doesn't specifically say stealth will hide you from cameras. Recognize that even astral sight has to rely on LOS, and a lot of stealth is staying behind objects and minimizing your profile.
Besides, there are alternatives to spells for mundanes - camo, ruthenium polymers and just good stealth can even the odds in terms of hiding. Larger guns or guns with automatic capability are great for more damage. Cyberware will make you more resistant to damage, faster, nastier when facing the opposition. Sure, there's no replacement for clairvoyance or heal, but that's just part of the game.
3) This - this is true. Spells can't be taken from you. But I just regard this as a subtle advantage mages have. And mundanes can learn things like unarmed combat, get densiplast guns, ceramic knives, et cetera. And if you have to get in someplace to kill someone, and they have metal detectors... well, it's time to figure out how to bypass the detectors and bring your guns anyway.
4) The average joe is most certainly not going to know how to defeat certain spells, it's true. But runners aren't average joes - runners have a duty, lest they be killed, to learn how to deal with any kind of opposition. Saying mages are unbalanced because average people won't know how to deal with them is akin to saying street sams are unbalanced because average joes won't know the details of possible cyberware they have, or riggers are unbalanced because you won't neccessarily know the specs on their drones. It's a major part of a runner's JOB to learn to how to not get killed, surprised, et cetera. If a runner does not know how to deal with a certain thing, he'll learn. Or he'll be dead. A good runner is a knowledgeable runner. A dead runner is one who doesn't do his homework.
The claim is this - magic is broken because:
1) Spells don't have ammo.
2) Spells aren't resisted as easily by mundanes as they are by mages, and this is viewed as making them 'almost impossible' to resist.
3) Spells can't be taken from your person like a gun.
4) The average joe isn't going to neccessarily know how to defeat certain spells, like say Invsibility.
I counter with the following, making my argument against as simple as possible:
1) No, spells do not have ammo. They can theoretically be cast again and again forever. But shooting a gun - even a silenced gun - doesn't have a decent chance of causing you to get a headache/tired/bleed from your nose/any other interpretation of drain you choose. Furthermore, sustaining spells without a sustaining focus or quickening causes a +2 target number modifier. There are a number of ways around this, but first, sustaining foci aren't exactly cheap, and you also have to re-bond them every time you change what spell they're attuned to. Secondly, centering MAY be able to get by the +2 penalty, but centering while invisible is a very difficult thing, as most certering skills require speaking, dancing, or otherwise interacting with the world in a way that requires either time or noise. Even meditation, the most silent of all centering skills, generally requires you sit down and make some willpower rolls to tune out the outside world.
As to the ulimited range and accuracy of spells, remember two things. First, combat spells and elemental manipulations ARE subject to vision and cover penalties. It's a little known rule, but it's in there. Second, in the Grimoire 2nd edition, there's a range penalty chart for spells. I still use it. Spells have a VERY good range, but there are still penalties for slamming a guy who's far away.
2) The average runner will be rolling between 4-6 dice against willpower-resisted spells, 4-6 against intelligence-resisted spells, and (in my experience) between 5-9 dice for body resisted spells. Willpower-resisted spells are far and away the best 'bang for buck' spells in terms of drain to effect. Compared to the mage's 6 sorcery + 6 (or more) spell pool dice, that doesn't seem like much. But examine it this way - I'll provide you with two examples.
A) Mage casts spell, 6 sorcery + 6 spell pool, force 5 spell. Gets, say, 5 successes, because the target has a 5 willpower. Target rolls, blows a Karma, gets between 3-4 successes to resist. Ow. Guy #2, a street sam, rolls 6 SMGs + 4 combat pool, against his target number of 4 (assuming 2 points of sight/movement penalties, and he has a smartlink). He gets 5 successes, as is statistically 'average'. Mage rolls 6 combat pool, and gets lucky! Total dodge! Then the sam makes the same roll again, because firing a 3 round burst is a simple action. Mage only has 2 combat pool left. Gets two successes! He's STILL got to resist between 10 and 12 S damage (depending on ammo type), and he can only use body. While the mage can cast one spell per round (as stacking spells gets drain-nasty in a hurry), the sam can crank out two shots. Four, if he's using two SMGs, though target numbers increase dramatically.
B) A mage, sneaking up on a guy, is invisible. To sense the mage, Joe the Gunbunny needs to pierce the spell to see the mage. Not exactly easy, is it? If the mage got a lot of successes, Joe's probably screwed. However, Joe's a street sam, and has hearing amp - two extra dice! To *hear* the mage coming, and to know generally where the mage is, Joe needs to roll 8 dice, and get two or more successes at target number 4. Why only 4? Well, if most invisibility-using mages don't spend points on the stealth skill, as Solstice asserts they don't, there's nothing making the mage quieter than anyone else. Now, if the street sam wanted to sneak up on the mage, we'll assume the following - the sam is wearing camo BDUs, because he's... well, a street sam... and uses his stealth skill. Assuming an even halfway decent roll on his stealth skill, and the camos adding +2, it's going to be MUCH harder for the mage to tell Joe's coming, unless the mage has spirits or a detect enemies spells. Even the spirits only add so much, because they have to defeat Joe's stealth, too.
No, it doesn't specifically say stealth can defeat astral sight, but it also doesn't specifically say stealth will hide you from cameras. Recognize that even astral sight has to rely on LOS, and a lot of stealth is staying behind objects and minimizing your profile.
Besides, there are alternatives to spells for mundanes - camo, ruthenium polymers and just good stealth can even the odds in terms of hiding. Larger guns or guns with automatic capability are great for more damage. Cyberware will make you more resistant to damage, faster, nastier when facing the opposition. Sure, there's no replacement for clairvoyance or heal, but that's just part of the game.
3) This - this is true. Spells can't be taken from you. But I just regard this as a subtle advantage mages have. And mundanes can learn things like unarmed combat, get densiplast guns, ceramic knives, et cetera. And if you have to get in someplace to kill someone, and they have metal detectors... well, it's time to figure out how to bypass the detectors and bring your guns anyway.
4) The average joe is most certainly not going to know how to defeat certain spells, it's true. But runners aren't average joes - runners have a duty, lest they be killed, to learn how to deal with any kind of opposition. Saying mages are unbalanced because average people won't know how to deal with them is akin to saying street sams are unbalanced because average joes won't know the details of possible cyberware they have, or riggers are unbalanced because you won't neccessarily know the specs on their drones. It's a major part of a runner's JOB to learn to how to not get killed, surprised, et cetera. If a runner does not know how to deal with a certain thing, he'll learn. Or he'll be dead. A good runner is a knowledgeable runner. A dead runner is one who doesn't do his homework.
| QUOTE (Adarael @ Dec 3 2004, 08:58 PM) |
| Second, in the Grimoire 2nd edition, there's a range penalty chart for spells. I still use it. Spells have a VERY good range, but there are still penalties for slamming a guy who's far away. |
This is deceptive. There aren't range penalties, it's just the Grimoire went into detail about the fact that at some ranges (I believe it started at several kilometers?) people start getting partial concealment from the smog and soforth between mage and target. In space assuming little debris, infinite magnification means infinite range.
Or would if the user could cast there. There's always a catch.
~J
A rose by any other name. It's still a range modifier. Although the table does say "The distances given in the above table are for flat, ground-level terrain at sea level under clear skies". The table breaks down as:
Range (m) Penalty
0-150 0
151-300 2
301-600 4
601-1250 6
1251-2500 8
2501-5000 10
5001+ Target not visible
Now of course, in a crowded Seattle downtown street under average smog conditions, that target at 200m is probably going to cost you a target penalty of something like 6-8.
EDIT: My mistake, it IS a range mod table. It's listed as an optional rule to prevent slapping people with manabolts kilometers away. Sounds like a good balancing device, imho
Range (m) Penalty
0-150 0
151-300 2
301-600 4
601-1250 6
1251-2500 8
2501-5000 10
5001+ Target not visible
Now of course, in a crowded Seattle downtown street under average smog conditions, that target at 200m is probably going to cost you a target penalty of something like 6-8.
EDIT: My mistake, it IS a range mod table. It's listed as an optional rule to prevent slapping people with manabolts kilometers away. Sounds like a good balancing device, imho
| QUOTE (SaintHax) | ||
The parallel that isn't: Solstice didn't say that his character didn't know there was magic out there, as you indicated that you knew of the existence of drug dealers. He said that not all mundanes, and I quote, "know exactly how magic works". Do you think in your small town that all the cops knew the going street rate for a kilo of coke? Or how much profit you could expect to make if you flipped it by the O-zee. Or what "flipping", "a lick", or other slangs even meant. |
Actually the argument I (and many others) use is:
You don't have to know how it works exactly! If you know it is there (and you do) you are warned. Same with the cop. Sure he didn't know the price. But as a neighbour brat learned he has been trained to recognise a joint by smell. And we got a very clean playground
Same with a lot of stuff - you don't have to know the details to use it. Our customer knows sh*** about field effect transistors or n-tier programming and all but he can still use a computer just fine without it.| QUOTE |
Someone else said that there'd be news casts explaining magic. Sure, and currently we have news casts explaining the dangers of cyber fraud. But, magic is very rare in 2065 (despite the frequency among PC's). The odds that an invisible mage will perv on you, has to be comparable to a hacker stealing your CC info. Go ask your mom and dad what their firewall settings are. The majority will be ignorant of cyber threats, but they will know they exist. |
Don't have to. After hearing about hackers my father got himself an expert on the stuff - Me! And the same can (and will) be done by mundane characters afraid of mages. They ask around and/or get professional help. It is like wiring my house - I call my cousin and hand him the cables, lights and beer. He's the electrician!
Before I went to live in a big city, I went to the local policestation and got myself an appointment with the "officer for home security". For a nominal fee they explained to me in great detail how to secure my home. I bet you there is something similar in 2060. You can make money with it, it does not hurt you so Ares/Lone Star/Wachtmeister Mattes will be there to do it
| QUOTE |
<cut> I think many of you don't want to admit the simple facts. I mean, come on. If you were on the design team for SR4, are you really telling me that you wouldn't change anything for balance???? |
Actually: Not much. And even less in the magic section (Actually: Drain /2 would either go away or at least round to shaft). The basic magic system works. Some new stuff is not to my liking (the social parts of the adept powers in SoTa2064) but the races are a bigger problem IMHO (raise the costs, more stress on racism in the text)
Birdy
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