The awakened, and the broke, Currently the rules nerf mundanes Options

[Herald of Verjig...]

1: There have been debates at how easy it is to make an invisible person easy to locate, sand is another fun one. They do penalize the stealth skill, but as a TN bonus to the perciever instead of immediately (well, TN 2 hearing test or so) alerting someone by the sound of footsteps in sand when no one is walking around.
2: Yes, it's mainly just useful for removing the mage once someone notices. It's still a world of hurt for the mage who states "I don't need more than one die to dodge each shot coming my way."
3: I did forget to mention filling the room with tear gas or your favorite chemical response (by spray or grenade). Usually expensive, but something that should be considered for anything worth really guarding.
4: A mage who isn't going up against opposition that would have some dual natured security (not all, but enough to sound the alert if not countered) is slumming and similar to a sniper making his living at carnival games and selling the toys. Entirely possible, but a waste of ability and the character should know this.
5: The only actual cost to wards is in time for the mage to set them up. A shaman with a conjured spirit should be able to get a force 5 ward in a reasonably large area in a few hours (less than one standard workday) that should last 3 weeks on average. One ward every 2 days of that force should be easy enough that a legal mage-type wouldn't mind it as a 2 point dayjob edge (same time as the flaw, 5 times the pay).
6: Yes, but the mage doing the run should be earning as much (or at least 2/3 as much) from his work as any legally employed mage can as a security mage. If he's working for less, see counter-counter-point 4.
7: Yes, I should've listed this with grenades and other area effect counters, but a hail of 30 gel rounds from the three shooters (or 60, no need for ambidexterity with this rule) should give any detected intruder some trouble once they open the door without much collateral damage. The main advantage of it (and the other area ones) is that once noticed, invisibility no longer provides any defense while more directed attacks still face a penalty.

I too miss the Firearms/Pistols/Slivergun (4/5/6) of one of my old PCs. There was an effort a wihle back in balancing the ranged combat into Longarms (rifle-types), smallarms (or short, something, meant one-hander types), heavy and launch. I know that my games never bother with a different skill for two different types of rifle just because of the RoF, so maybe the fracturing of combat skills did go too far and needs to be pulled back a little.

[Joe Outside]

[Cray74]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Eyeless Blond]

Oh, and one more thing: Inproved Invis does nothing against vehicle sensors with a rating above I think 2, as they all have ultrasound vision at that level. Even Sensors 0 has "ultrasound proximity detection," which could be ruled to bypass Invis as well. It's not like ultrasound sensors are actually rare in the Sixth World or anything; they have a fairly low Availability, in fact, even for the eye mod version. They're just rare in your imagination, and *only* in your imagination. :)

[Cray74]

[Solstice]

I'm not a complete newbie to SR and I've never played with anyone who used an ultrasound sight "in case I run into those crazy invisible mages".

Also I thought suppressive fire was indirect fire and only possible using certain items/skills that are more merc/soldier oriented...not your average runner.

What you guys are stating is that you joe blow runner should have tactical comp and/or allies to provide indirect or suppressive fire, ultrasound sights, beaded curtains, boosted hearing/olfactory. I simply think it's too much.

Do you think realisitically that any security designer has invisibility in mind when designing anything other than a AAA rated facility? I would think they would be more concerned about your average b&e. You know playing the odds for cost/benefit.

Sure there are options out there but seriously...how many people use ultrasound sights on their guns or cybereyes? It's just not balanced and with all the modifiers to perception test a person would be lucky to ever figure out where an invisible mage is. And by then they would be geeked.

[Kagetenshi]

Eyeless Blond: first off, as I already stated, if you accept that OR matters you must also take the neighboring restriction to Force meters in radius on the effect. Second off, vehicle sensors receive a -3 to Sensor Tests against all targets in line-of-sight, so even Rating 1 Sensors really should not be slowed down by a mere inability to detect a target in a tiny part of the electromagnetic spectrum.

~J

[John Campbell]

[Solstice]

Who said I was rejecting it out of hand? I'm giving an observation from my somewhat limited experience. I don't know who really walks around with ultrasound goggles on or in their back pocket. And when would you know to put them on? The guy is invisible..

Really this is a matter of logic more than anything...which is why the pro magic side is failing.

[Cray74]

[draco aardvark]

[Solstice]

If you guys really play like that then IMO your playing what you know not what your character knows. My character currently has never been around magic and he doesn't understand the "strange powers" of the groups mage (which really isn't that far off from what I know as a player but that is beside the point).

You guys make it sound so common like everyone knows about improved invisibility and they pack around special goggles just for that purpose ("hey don't let those sneaky mages get the jump on ya chummer")....kinda dumb when you think about it but whatever strokes your goat. I'm done bickering. Now I will concentrate on a house rule for imp. invis. maybe a time limit?

[Bigity]

If the character doesn't know yet, he will learn in a hurry. That's not an unbalance in the game mechanics, it's the truth to a little saying, "Knowledge is power."

If you are going to put a time limit on a sustained spell, you have to put it on all sustained spells, IMO, otherwise you're creating balance issues.

[John Campbell]

No, we're playing characters who have been living in a world where magic is a fact of life for their entire lives. Moreover, we're playing characters who are in jobs where being able to deal with mages is a necessary survival trait. That being the case, it seems like it might be a good idea to a) find out a little about what these mages can do, and b) take whatever steps are possible to counter it. Basic information is readily available in-character, as are some common sense countering steps. So, since my characters are not completely stupid, they get that information and take those steps.

[Solstice]

Ok maybe your character isn't...but every NPC isn't either? Come on tis stupid to view the world like that but it's your game not mine. I don't see my characters or NPCs being exposed to magic their whole life even if they DON'T grow up sheltered from the street. I can see a local shaman maybe in the neighborhood being viewed as like a "village wise man" if you will. But by no means would all the mundane characters know exactly how magic works, who can use it etc...that is just rediculous regardless of their background. I guess if you want to play lame jaded characters that have (apparently) seen and lived everything then it's ok.

[Cray74]

[Herald of Verjig...]

Security guard training will include "Mages, the tricks they may try, and what can make them fail." Any location that can't afford a 3 hour seminar on basic countermeasures isn't worth hiring shadowrunners to break into.

[Bigity]

While I completely agree that every wageslave out there is going to have barely any idea about real magic (as opposed to the sim and trideo stuff he sees), SR doesn't follow the hijinks of John Doe Wageslave as he lives his daily life.

It follows professional (in the sense that they are paid to perform) criminals and the trained personell who try to stop them. People who:
A) Win or lose (and die) by what they know
B) Spend lots of time and effort keeping on top of SOTA (including mundane techniques to eliminate or shrink the advantage magic gives)

I don't see what's so unreasonable. Even if a character started off knowing very little, he would learn, and eventually decide spending a few hundred nuyen on some goggles is worth it, or that it might be a good idea to pay a magician to put a ward around his place, or whatever. He won't remain ignorant of the more common magical techniques for long, if he's going to be a successful runner.

[Garland]

You're talking like the concept of invisibility is brand new. In 2064, there have been invisible people for more than 40 years! Even if the average person doesn't know how magic works, and sees mages as enigmatic ciphers, they've still probably heard an "invisible mage" joke, seen a slapstick sitcom routine involving invisible people, watched a shadowrunner movie where invisibility figured heavily (Karl Kombatmage, perhaps), and maybe even read a cautionary article about invisible peeping toms or stalkers or something. The average person doesn't have to be a Th.D. to know about invisibility. I mean, c'mon, how many movies RIGHT NOW feature something of the sort and a cheap way to detect it (Predator, Invisible Man, Hollow Man, etc.).

I'd also like to say that in the paranoid '60's, a situation like what's described by Cray74 sounds reasonable. I'd probably want to invisible-proof my home, especially if 20/20 or Dateline, or whatever news show they've got in 2064 had run a scare-story on it.

[Cray74]

[Solstice]

Whatever, that's fine. We just have two different views of what our worlds should be like. I've always thought of my nonmerc runners as 'semi-normal people in desperate/extenuating circumstances" it's not like they grow up watching magical combat. And I doubt sim or TV can disemminate accurate knowledge on any subject especially magic. It's fucking tv and movies for christ sake.

ok i'm done now no more it's a pointless conversation. :dead:

[Ol' Scratch]

[Garland]

What's inaccurate (for example) about "invisible people still disturb the curtains when they come in through the window"? That seems a pretty simple thing to get across in any medium.

[Bigity]

Yes, but the same thing happens today.

You have shows like ER, for example, which portrays medical treatment and doctors in a certain way. It's not very accurate, but sometimes hits on truths.

However, anyone with a desire can study more in-depth and technical materials, and actually learn how to give injections, or draw blood. Then add some schooling. What does that give you? EMT techs, nurses, lab assistants.

Now add in some company or school that is dedicated to training people about medicine and students that dedicate large amounts of time and effort. what do you have? Doctors, who can do things that people with no training or education in the area can understand.