 Dog Days, Captain Obvious points to new SR Fiction |
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 May 1 2006, 03:47 AM
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#126
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Why oh why didn't I take the blue pill.  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,545 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gloomy Boise Idaho Member No.: 2,006  |
Hell I have submitted two things and gotten shot down once. I am still trying though. I think AH getting web-published was awesome, and I congratulate anyone who gets even a tiny bit of recognition as a writer. Why? We don't do it to get rich, we do it because we love creating. Disparaging someone who has gotten published because you haven't smacks of bitterness.
Regardless of if you like the piece recognize that someone put a lot of work into it. It is there creation, good or bad. Try to think about how you would feel if it was your work. Or remember when it was your work. Legitimate criticism is one thing, personal attacks are uncalled for. |
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May 1 2006, 08:55 AM
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#127
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Shadowrun Setting Nerd Group: Banned Posts: 3,632 Joined: 28-June 05 From: Pissing on pedestrians from my electronic ivory tower. Member No.: 7,473 |
Hm... I don't ever recall making a personal attack, but I guess when I comment about how awful a piece is that I want to burn my eyes out with lighter fluid, it may seem personal. But ... That's not really "personal" so much as being unable to differentiate between two completely different things, which is actually a pretty important ability to have if you're a writer.
Untitled Webfiction Never-Submission I think I'll just link you to some extra fiction I currently have available online set before or immediately following the Crash as well, even if most are short ambience-setting pieces without any context here because, to quote the ever-sagacious Hilary Duff, "Why not?" Another Night in Poland (The story I submitted for tisoz's contest) First Time A New Start Absent Friends (674k 46-page PDF) Espionage and the Shadows (317k 8-page PDF) Happy Birthday Buzzard Point 2061 Manhattan 2048 Reckoning Washington 2054 These are all linked to Absent Friends and my post-Crash (post-AF) campaign: The Fall's Gonna Kill You Sharks in the Water The Last Ghost Complications We'll Meet Again Setback Campaign pages (pay attention, this can get confusing. Reading the archives and AF is a must): What A Week It Has Been (Connor) The Last Time (Frank Trevayne) Encore (Italy) Against All Enemies (Frankie solo) Catastrophe (Rache solo) Into the Void (Frankie and Rache; then Rache solo) Once More Into the Breach (Telnet, Pi, Tyn, and Line Noise) - DE should get a kick out of this The Accidental Nexus (Fell) To Live And Die in Seattle (William Running-Cloud) Sabotage (The Muse) Gone to Ground (Foster) And now I wander back off to the real world. You know, the sad thing is how in spite of everyone I know calling me nuts for caring, I was really excited to write this submission piece once I figured out how to meet the final criterion (adding a core character) until I read Dog Days. I think everyone and their dog (har har) knew that I hate the SR4 rules, but ... Man. I was really excited. I was even planning to send submissions for locations for future setting books (DC and Santa Fe, if you're curious, since I've lived there long enough to have deep contacts and a distinct perspective of both), but now? I hate to admit it, but they were right, and I was an idiot for caring. |
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May 1 2006, 10:54 AM
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#128
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Beating a dead horse again? I actually expected your silly comment instead of winterhawk11's. Everyone submitting is most assuredly competing to be published. (I do not believe I referred to payment as being a prize or award, so get your story straight.) The issue some people have with the pubished product is how low the quality bar is set. This quality level is a result of the current crop of freelancers and the editors in control. The submission guidelines favor the current freelancers. The current freelancers have a personal interest in not seeing the quality level rise above their abilities. Let's see some better quality and some fresh talent.
Then he is not really entitled to belong to the Dumpshock group Freelancer? This post has been edited by tisoz: May 1 2006, 12:46 PM |
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May 1 2006, 12:14 PM
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#129
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Not if everyone submitting actually has a chance of being "published" (as long as the material meets the criteria) and nobody's "spot" is taken. At best, people would be competing for being published first, but as far as FanPro is concerned if it's good enough it might not be published one week, but it will be published the next.
Submissions always favor the current freelancers be it for fiction, sourcebooks or rulebooks - they're known quantities and the editors are familiar with qualities and flaws of their writing. That being said the submission guidelines were amended quite some time ago to reflect the fact that there is no bias involved in the website fiction and the editor responsible for it has repeatedly stated here that all submissions are welcome and will be reviewed on merit. At a time when the freelancer circle was much tighter knit and harder to break into the EuroSBers (myself included) did break in solely on the SoE submission and with no prior experience or reference. I actually got to do Lofwyr for DotSW on the strength of my SoE submission rather than any prior reference. So no, as I've told numerous aspiring fanboys who've asked for advice over the past 3 years, the "freelancer club" is not hard to break into if you have interest and the ideas. It just takes persistence and knowing how to make the best of opportunities when they crop up.
I was wondering if that's what you were getting at. Obviously, Ancient was invited to join the gang because we thought his material and his knowledge of the setting was "below average". That was probably the reason we recruited him for SoLA too, after all, it couldn't possibly be that someone saw a lot of potential in what he's written and self-published. Would you even be getting your panties in a knot (and I don't mean Kage's or SL James whose issues are different) if Ancient didn't have Freelancer title under his Dumpshock nick? If this had been any other fanboy's first published work?
As you've also been told Ancient entered this submission quite some time ago and it was held up for several reasons. He'd only worked on a small section of SoLA at the time (as well as helping out with continuity) and unfortunately that hasn't seen the light of day. Ancient was invited to help fact check continuity on System Failure, but has no writing credits on any official FanPro material that I know of except Dog Days. In the meantime he has submitted and his proposals have been picked up for future sourcebooks which is why he has since earned his Dumpshock Freelancer title. For the record and whether you believe it or not, you are also seriously overestimating both the number of non-freelancer submissions we get for any given project and the quality of those. We have been actively hunting for fresh blood (as will become evident in the upcoming core books) - finding it is a whole different issue. That was one of the reasons why the open call submission guidelines were posted in the first place. A lot of great potential new talent was lost with the shift to SR4, some people like Kage were disenchanted with the new direction, others like mfb disenchanted with the new mechanics, and others yet like SL James off on their very own anti-FanPro crusade. Fortunately others were energized and motivated by the change and after an initial familiarization period we're starting to see a lot more submissions from newcomers. |
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May 1 2006, 01:15 PM
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#130
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
Are these not examples of "spot"? Perhaps you should define whatever other example of "spot" you mean to nitpick about?
:S In other words, he is not really a Freelancer? Or is everyone that had a short story published on the website entitled to that title? Interesting that he has displayed but apparently not earned the Freelancer title for the past year(?). :S (I hope the sarcasm emoticons convey that this is not really an issue for me, but I hate it when someone seems to be spouting BS, especially when it seems done just to make me look silly. :))
I can believe it. Just look at how discouraging the guidelines were.
I wonder where you see me fitting, not as lost talent because I have no intention of submitting to FanPro/Wizkids/etc., but because I seem to draw the ire of you and winterhawk11. (It is a shame, too, as I had a good deal of respect for you both.) :(
Unfortunately, after these bouts of bickering, I feel like saying good-bye to Dumpshock. An hour or so ago, I was tempted to announce a new deadline of a couple months away for everything outstanding, just so I could come back at that date, keep my word and conclude all competitions. Then fade away... |
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May 1 2006, 02:09 PM
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#131
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Aren't you guys blowing this out of proportion in the same way that dropping a hand grenade out of a cessna might be construed as a military bombing run?
Seriously. This is what happened: Ancient History tooted his horn and linked a story (his) to a target audience (Dumpshock). The Target Audience has, more or less, found the story lacking, and taken advantage of the closeness of the forum in question (Dumpshock forums, which are ironically not nessessarily what I meant by forum) to tell the author what they feel. And now there's finger-pointing and accusations of an old boy network an all this? GRRAAFRGGBBLLGLE! Get the fuck over it and move on! Tisoz, shut up. More than 99% of people who declare those public "I'm leaving" things wind up slinking back. The real people who leave are the ones who quietly do it in the night. SL James, shut up. You don't like the Man, that's fine. At least have the courtesy to not turn our fiction-reviewing threads into your personal grievane-airing forum. There are other places for that - email, for example. Synner, Winterhawk, shut up! You're feeding the trolls by responding to them! There. Now that I've proven that I don't discriminate; I offend everyone equally, maybe we can get back to the bisuness at hand. The bisuness of reading and reviewing Dog Days. Not the bisuness of debating groups or titles AH may or may not, as per your opinion, have earned, not the bisuness of throwing around accusations of a conspiracy or an old boy network. Not the bisuness of responding to said allegations. I've already said my piece, but just to make it clearer, I'll re-iterate it. If "Dog Days" is in line and concomitant with FanPro's official stance on what an average Shadowrun should be like, and an average Shadowrunner should do, thanks for the dice system, see you around. Given that I'm one of those wierd people who shelled out cash-moolah for a pdf of On the Run and found it not lacking, I'm going to agree with Kagentenshi that putting out the best of a bad lot just to say you're getting fiction out the door is a disservice to those who have to read it. And finally to AH, hey. We've all wrote lemons, it happens. Sometimes you're on the rebound from a bad experiance with chemicals or love. Sometimes you have an off day/week/month/year/decade. Sometimes your idea of what is good manages to be completely out of synch with the reality of what your intended fanbase thinks is good. This one is getting more critique than usual because it survived the editor's desk, but don't get down. Just keep writing your stuff and put it out. Just please, no more of Sticks. He's the antithesis of Shadowrunners as I know them. He operates alone, he has no cyber, is not apparently a mage or a physad, and he carries something as incredibly outdated as a staff in 2070. He uses the scope on a paintball gun to do his recon, for crying out loud. He's desperate for cash, but when fate throws him a windfall in the form of Chester, not only does he do the most crazy out-of-left-field thing I could think of, to the point that I had to re-read and re-re-read that part to be sure I was understanding that it was him and not some loonie with a rebar-throwing crossbow (You know who you are, freeman! Daaaamn yoouuu!) that did the deed. And then, like any good money-desperate criminal-for-hire living on the edge of bankruptcy and becoming ghoul chow, he... Leaves the dog there? He dosen't take him and have his cyber recycled? The cyber that, even at crappy black-market-selling value could've kept him in a Low lifestyle for about four months? After doing the most stupid thing a Shadowrunner in his position could have done, he then goes and compounds the error by doing the most stupid thing a Shadowrunner in the position he just put himself into by rebaring the dog could have done? This guy dosen't deserve to be an Iconic character, he deserves the title Ghoul Chow. |
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May 1 2006, 02:43 PM
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#132
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Administrative opinion: I hate the goddamned 'freelancer' tag and don't think it should appear on DSF, but it was added long ago and it's still around due to inertia. I don't lift a finger to add new people to the group and I don't expect it to survive the next forum upgrade. |
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May 1 2006, 02:50 PM
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#133
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
They way I view the runner in the story is that not all runners are the top of the line pros. If they all do the same thing as expected. I remember one line in Murphy's Law of combat:
'41. Professional soldiers are predictable; the world is full of dangerous amateurs.' Same could be applied to said runner. As long as the described runner isn't a munchkin and isn't doing things that one could describe similar to metagaming, then I don't see what's wrong for them to make the different, or wrong as some of y'all see it, choices. Also, can't y'all just get along? Simmer down now! Sheesh. |
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May 1 2006, 03:05 PM
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#134
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
So you're suggesting the situation would somehow be different if Dog Days had been published second or third? Or if he'd written this piece under a pseudonym?
Honestly? I think you fit in Kage's group for the most part. As I noted elsewhere I for one appreciate your idea of running a webfiction contest and wish you all the luck with it, as for the rest of it, I'm not familiar enough with your work to evaluate whether you would have been an asset or not. I do acknowledge that at least a couple of talented individuals (they know who they are) I would like to have seen cross over to freelancing are no longer interested with the shift to SR4. And tisoz, believe me you don't draw my ire, for the most part I'm past caring what you think. I will, however, go out of my way to reply when you consistently take the time to slam people I value and trust, slander their ethics, suggest bias where there is none, and generally just badmouth a process you obviously no nothing about. Why bother? Because they deserve it. And people who might want to submit to FanPro and read this stuff deserve to know how things work too so they aren't dissuaded by your false accusations.
This kind of slander is what pisses me off. Those that know me from DSF and have taken the time to ask know full well how supportive and open to bringing in new blood I am. In fact, I like to think I'm partially responsible for bringing aboard several of the new talents that have come on the team over the past couple of years. On numerous ocassions I've gone out of my way to provide advice and suggestions on pitching material and selling concepts. Several people did the same for me when I was toying with the idea of pitching so I know for a fact that this statement isn't only unfounded but pure BS.
Such a decision would be a pity and a loss to Dumpshock. Bickering is a default in every other thread on Dumpshock but had your comments been less provocative and less insulting maybe bickering would not have ensued.
This has nothing to do with discouraging guidelines and this is a situation that predates the open call for webfiction. |
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May 1 2006, 03:10 PM
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#135
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Synner, are you trying to prolong the flame-fest?
Seriously. This isen't even like most DSF arguments. This one is getting seriously personal and stupid, and it needs to be locked if it won't stop. None of you are helping, and not stopping the flame war is the worst thing you guys can do at the moment. Rather like rebaring your loyal attack dog through the eye. |
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May 1 2006, 03:13 PM
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#136
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
I'm going to stay out of most of this from now on because I don't really want to get into further arguments with folks (it's not very productive as a whole), but I will say this: it really is too bad that you feel this way. I read your submission, and it could have been a serious contender. If you can get over your ill feelings, I invite you to submit something else. |
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May 1 2006, 03:25 PM
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#137
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I couldn't read that whole thing. I couldn't even get far enough along that I figured out what the plot was about.
May I give some advice? 1) Get/use a thesaurus. Using the same word 2+ times in a paragraph makes for a repetitive feel that jars the reader out of their flow. For instance, in paragraph one you have "... darkness. Darkness..." Using the same word in a row is even worse than just using it repeatedly. 2) Action needs to be described, but having every other sentence formatted as "she <verb> <descriptive text>" gets incredibly old. Again, it's a matter of repetition. 3) Replace "shit" with "drek" or something similar. Modern cuss words aren't part of the standard SR universe. And for the record, I'm not saying I'm a better writer, just that you've made some fairly common mistakes that can be easily rectified. Whether the story itself is any good I have no idea. |
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May 1 2006, 03:35 PM
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#138
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
The story needs some editing, true. There were a few points where I wasn't entirely sure who was doing what to whom, and I certainly wasn't reading it to the level of trying to fix word-choice problems. When I look at stories as possibilities, the first thing I'm looking at is whether the person can write reasonably well. The best idea in the world is going to fall flat if the writer doesn't have the ability to implement it. After that, I look at whether the story is interesting--if the writer is decent, the story can (usually) be massaged. That said, I thought this one showed possibility. That's all I'm saying. Not that I'd choose it to put on the website tomorrow, but that it's good enough that I'd take the time to work with the author on it.
Actually, yes they are. For SR4, we've switched over to real-world profanity. |
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May 1 2006, 03:44 PM
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#139
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ah, I must have missed that. But I haven't read SR4 fiction, just the rule book. Nvermind then. :)
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May 1 2006, 03:52 PM
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#140
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
In the SR4 main book, the first occurrence of the word "fuck" is on the sixth page. Curiously enough, the word "shit" does not seem to appear.
~J |
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May 1 2006, 04:14 PM
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#141
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It must be in the story section. I've avoided reading those because their positioning really pisses me off. Being located before the table of contents and after the index makes finding those things when you want them a pain in the ass. that's been fixed in the later printings though, so I might borrow a buddy's copy to read them. :)
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May 1 2006, 04:18 PM
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#142
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
The fiction has not been moved in the later printings. The fiction after the index was only in the limited edition.
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May 1 2006, 04:19 PM
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#143
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Ah, then I probably still won't read the first story. :)
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May 1 2006, 04:32 PM
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#144
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
Bummer. That's sort of a silly reason not to read a story, but whatever works for you. I admit I might be biased, though. :) |
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May 1 2006, 04:50 PM
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#145
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
It's the only method of resistance I've got against the habit some game companies (Fanpro and WoD mainly) are getting into of putting stories in bad places. I'm glad to hear they got rid of the story after the index in the newer books. Not that it was a bad story, but making it hard to find the thing that's supposed to make things easy to find is a bit silly. :)
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May 1 2006, 04:55 PM
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#146
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
They didn't actually "get rid of it." It only appeared in the limited edition, which meant there weren't any newer versions of it. |
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May 1 2006, 04:56 PM
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#147
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Was it there? Is it there now? If yes and no, then it's been "gotten rid of." But the only reason I'm posting this semantics argument is because I'm bored. ;)
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May 1 2006, 04:58 PM
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#148
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It isn't a method of resistance, though—they've already got your money, the fact that you're not using part of what you paid for makes very little difference. Other than public decrial (which varies in effectiveness), your only real method of resistance is not paying them for books that do this (or not paying for books from people who do this at all). Short of demonstrating that this practice is or should be illegal, that's your sole path. Whether or not you determine this offense to be worth that response is your decision :) ~J |
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May 1 2006, 05:02 PM
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#149
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I didn't buy the book, I got it for GMing at Gencon, so not buying it wasn't an option. There aren't any other SR books out that currently do it (and precious few other books out period) so I can't refuse to buy those either. I don't buy the WoD books that do it, but I don't buy WoD books in general because the rest of my group usually buys two or three.
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May 1 2006, 05:02 PM
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#150
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 296 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Usually under a cat Member No.: 864 |
Was it in the Limited Edition? Yes. Is it still in the Limited Edition? Yes. So it's still there. I'm bored too, but I shouldn't be. I'm supposed to be working. :D |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 16th February 2025 - 08:39 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.