Do SR characters PAY for things?, Why do these criminal mastermind groups use money? Options

[Irion]

@Midas
So true. To sell stuff don't really hurl in the big profits after the rules. I guess thats because the rules are very abstract on the hole selling thing.
@ ShadowDragon8685
The rules for fancing stuff are very abstract. You do not have to bribe police officers to stay off your back. You do not need to get good with the local gangs. You do not need to pay for the opportunity to praise or store or transport your merchandise. Thats all taken care of. And because of that, you only get 30% (with additional modifiers).

[Fortinbras]

I've banned Erased before. It takes too much control away from the GM. Short term imprisonment and any type of interaction with authority without a position of power ("Okay, we caught you trying to steal from our labs. Deliver the Mr. J to us and we'll forget this ever happened") become impossible because the players think/know they'll be stuck in a paperwork loop.

Why can't Erased players be imprisoned or "detained" by police and Corps? A lack of information on somebody doesn't grant them a release. If anything it ensures they stay in the area forever and are just forgotten about. This happens in Dallas County jail all the time. If it's a law thing, since when do Sixth World police and AAA's follow the law? This is "I'll let you go with a warning, but I am going to have to ask you for a bribe" territory.
I remember a book a while back that said if Lone Star found a guy with no info(i.e. SINless) they beat him up, dug the cyberware out of his skull and left him in an alley. That's not certain death for a player, but it's a pretty hefty punishment.
Erased is certainly a powerful quality, but by no means does it make players untraceable. Just untraceable via hacking. If anything, players lean on it like a crutch and forget that there is a whole other world of ways for GMs to screw you.

[almost normal]

Why can't Erased players be imprisoned or "detained" by police and Corps? A lack of information on somebody doesn't grant them a release. If anything it ensures they stay in the area forever and are just forgotten about. This happens in Dallas County jail all the time. If it's a law thing, since when do Sixth World police and AAA's follow the law? This is "I'll let you go with a warning, but I am going to have to ask you for a bribe" territory.
I remember a book a while back that said if Lone Star found a guy with no info(i.e. SINless) they beat him up, dug the cyberware out of his skull and left him in an alley. That's not certain death for a player, but it's a pretty hefty punishment.
Erased is certainly a powerful quality, but by no means does it make players untraceable. Just untraceable via hacking. If anything, players lean on it like a crutch and forget that there is a whole other world of ways for GMs to screw you.

I agree, and that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying the players know this, and so won't let themselves ever be captured, knowing it's the end of their character.

[Fortinbras]

I agree, and that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying the players know this, and so won't let themselves ever be captured, knowing it's the end of their character.

Okay, I dig you. I reckoned you were going the other way. Sorry, it was kind of a knee jerk. If that were the case I'd think players would simply opt not to take it themselves.
Though I don't think Erased is a death sentence either. People living SINless and off the grid should very much be a big part of Shadowrun. Just make sure you always have bribe money. I like to use bribing cops as a GM stick far more than doing time. It doesn't derail the game and it takes away things players really like. That's just my personal style of play & opinion. I can totally see it the other way.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Fortinbras, that only works in a situation where, if they don't have the bribe money, the players could, if necessary, employ violence to escape.


If the cops are of the "beat you up, cut your 'ware out and leave you for dead" types (never-minding the fact that actually cutting out someone's ware is going to kill them outright,) type, and they're in a position to do that and are offered a bribe...

They're going to beat you up, cut out your ware, take you for dead, and take the offered bribe money anyway.

[Fortinbras]

Fortinbras, that only works in a situation where, if they don't have the bribe money, the players could, if necessary, employ violence to escape.

If the cops are of the "beat you up, cut your 'ware out and leave you for dead" types (never-minding the fact that actually cutting out someone's ware is going to kill them outright,) type, and they're in a position to do that and are offered a bribe...

They're going to beat you up, cut out your ware, take you for dead, and take the offered bribe money anyway.

Yeah, if the cops only want to be bribed once. You don't want to get a rep that bribing you won't do any good. That and players rarely have the cash on them; it's a quid pro quo situation. "Nice doing business with you. Catch. You. Later."
Of course if players are out of both money and innovative ideas, they should have to employ violence. It's Shadowrun, after all. Gunfights, spell slinging, hacking people's eyeballs; all that good stuff.

But if you're out of money and innovative escape ideas and you lose the violence and they leave you for dead, well that's what Edge is for. If they're out of Edge, that's what death is for. You should always give players options, but they should also be afraid of character death. It's what keeps them from running head first into Zero Zones.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Yeah, if the cops only want to be bribed once. You don't want to get a rep that bribing you won't do any good. That and players rarely have the cash on them; it's a quid pro quo situation. "Nice doing business with you. Catch. You. Later."

The recurring bribe money from one guy isn't going to overvalue the money you can get from hocking his cyber and selling his corpse to Tamanous. Hey, if you're gonna leave him for dead anyway...

Honestly, I think that, quite frankly, most cops simply aren't going to be bloodthirsty enough and sociopathic enough to do that. Forget what they legally "Can" do, or even illegally "could get away with" doing, it's what they will do.

They're not Player Characters, after all, nor are they Vory.

[Fortinbras]

Honestly, I think that, quite frankly, most cops simply aren't going to be bloodthirsty enough and sociopathic enough to do that. Forget what they legally "Can" do, or even illegally "could get away with" doing, it's what they will do.

So what do you believe they will do, after catching a Shadowrunner? Do they follow the law to the letter, bring him in and book him clean, or ask to be bribed first or dump him in the Barrens or something in between? When your players get snagged, what do you do?

[ShadowDragon8685]

So what do you believe they will do, after catching a Shadowrunner? Do they follow the law to the letter, bring him in and book him clean, or ask to be bribed first or dump him in the Barrens or something in between? When your players get snagged, what do you do?

Right now, in my game, it's 2072, Lone Star has lost the Seattle contract to Knight Errant. Knight Errant are really revving to win the jaded hearts and minds of Seattle's people.

So, it depends on where it happens. If Knight Errant catches them downtown, they're getting hauled in, booked, and they're either going to do time, or Knight Errant will try to turn them into an asset by telling them they can be 'lost in the paperwork' if they do a few jobs for them. Anywhere more high-profile and secure than downtown, and they're going directly to Hollywood, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

Anywhere LESS than Downtown, and if they weren't involved in anything major, they might take the standard bribe. After all, it's not actually a crime if they shoot up some SINless gangsters, and collecting a contribution to the police widow's fund is going to be more profitable than running them in on a charge of possessing an illegal weapon in Puyallup or Redmond or somewhere where you literally can't walk a kilometer in any arbitrary direction without tripping over an illegal weapon.


But then, so far, my players haven't really run afoul of the law, they've kept their heads down, the few times they've spoken with John Q. Copper, they've had good bluffs and the fake SINs and licenses to back them up.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree, and that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying the players know this, and so won't let themselves ever be captured, knowing it's the end of their character.

This is absolutely and completely wrong... Just Sayin' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I have had my primary character captured, had all equipment and most of his Cyber removed, and had himk sent to prison; and the character was still playable. Even managed to get better gear and Cyber over time, at better grades too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It is only the end of the character if you allow it to be. Smacks of twinkery if you just give up, as far as I am concerned. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Lord Ben]

It seems to be that this type of situation is exactly what a Loss Prevention Dept would be looking for 24/7/365 in real time as it happens. Changes to orders, shipping locations, checking new customers, etc. Any chance there exists for large scale theft is going to be monitored for exactly that. It's probably more likely to be closely monitored for hacking than a black ops facility that doesn't technically exist since there are many more people who'd be willing to mess with it. Or the guys monitoring the Black Ops also do security for the distribution center for their official day job. But hey, they can probably just do both at the same time. If it's moving enough product where it wouldn't notice a 100,000ny blip in the system immediately chances are it can afford some serious data security.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not nearly as clean cut as it is presented as being. It's easy IRL to say "look how easy it would be to steal XYZ and have it for free!" but if you're highly skilled enough to pull it off without a problem you might as well do more profitable things and just pay cash for your 2 months worth of supplies and groceries.

[Speed Wraith]

It seems to be that this type of situation is exactly what a Loss Prevention Dept would be looking for 24/7/365 in real time as it happens. Changes to orders, shipping locations, checking new customers, etc. Any chance there exists for large scale theft is going to be monitored for exactly that. It's probably more likely to be closely monitored for hacking than a black ops facility that doesn't technically exist since there are many more people who'd be willing to mess with it. Or the guys monitoring the Black Ops also do security for the distribution center for their official day job. But hey, they can probably just do both at the same time. If it's moving enough product where it wouldn't notice a 100,000ny blip in the system immediately chances are it can afford some serious data security.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not nearly as clean cut as it is presented as being. It's easy IRL to say "look how easy it would be to steal XYZ and have it for free!" but if you're highly skilled enough to pull it off without a problem you might as well do more profitable things and just pay cash for your 2 months worth of supplies and groceries.

Well, for what it is worth, the OP and the other players in our Hangouts group is planning something along these lines. We'll get a live-test of it once they hammer out the details. We'll see what evidence is left behind, and how well they can get away with the plan, as well as what kind of heat it brings down (evidence or no, some PI could certainly kick open the door and at least try to glean some information the corps could use to pin the crime on a suspect).

[_Pax._]

.... I for one don't plan on letting anyone on the team do Step Zero of any such plan, until we have what we need to pin it on someone else. And make it stick, too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Thorguild]

We don't have any enemies for that yet. Give it a week or two.

[_Pax._]

Enemy, who needs an enemy. Just pick a patsy, and get to pinning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Heck, how about the Headshot guy, or his friends?

[Iduno]

We don't have any enemies for that yet. Give it a week or two.

It's not that hard to make an enemy. Just frame them for a crime or something.

The hard part of planning would be finding something you can use before people start looking for it, or something that you can hide until the heat dies down.

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

Enemy, who needs an enemy. Just pick a patsy, and get to pinning. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Heck, how about the Headshot guy, or his friends?

I was just about to suggest our cyberhobo friend. If you guys can point all the data trails at his commcode/access ID, I'll volunteer to re-deadenate him real subtle like. After unloading the haul we stuff him into the getaway van and remote it into the Sound w/ KE on its tail.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I was just about to suggest our cyberhobo friend. If you guys can point all the data trails at his commcode/access ID, I'll volunteer to re-deadenate him real subtle like. We stuff him into the getaway van and remote it into the Sound w/ KE on its tail.

Isn't that CyberBozo (the Clown) rather than Cyberhobo?
Having a Ruthless People flashback... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[FuelDrop]

Isn't that CyberBozo (the Clown) rather than Cyberhobo?
Having a Ruthless People flashback... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pin it on a Mime. think about it, they're not going to speak up in their own defense, are they? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Also, it gets rid of a mime. that's practically a public service.

[_Pax._]

I was just about to suggest our cyberhobo friend. If you guys can point all the data trails at his commcode/access ID, I'll volunteer to re-deadenate him real subtle like. After unloading the haul we stuff him into the getaway van and remote it into the Sound w/ KE on its tail.

Hmm, if we really want them t think "we killed the guy who stole that stuff" ... we round up a couple SINless - ghouls, maybe, to keep Pat's mage from getting squeamish about all the killing - pack them in a truck with Firing Ports, set up Smart Firing Platforms. Running gun battle, and as the police finally close in?

The C-12 detonates, turning the truck, and the four or five bodies inside, into so much char.

(As a bonus, if you want a SIN burnt permanently, we pay to have the biometrics altered to match one of the corpses, and leave a commlink in a conveniently-fireproofed-duffel bag next to said corpse.)

Then, we all sit back to watch the show on the evening news, with a bowl of popcorn and a pile of ill-gotten gains. Hahaha.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pin it on a Mime. think about it, they're not going to speak up in their own defense, are they? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Also, it gets rid of a mime. that's practically a public service.

Well, there is that... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ShadowDragon8685]

Hmm, if we really want them t think "we killed the guy who stole that stuff" ... we round up a couple SINless - ghouls, maybe, to keep Pat's mage from getting squeamish about all the killing - pack them in a truck with Firing Ports, set up Smart Firing Platforms. Running gun battle, and as the police finally close in?

The C-12 detonates, turning the truck, and the four or five bodies inside, into so much char.

(As a bonus, if you want a SIN burnt permanently, we pay to have the biometrics altered to match one of the corpses, and leave a commlink in a conveniently-fireproofed-duffel bag next to said corpse.)

Then, we all sit back to watch the show on the evening news, with a bowl of popcorn and a pile of ill-gotten gains. Hahaha.

Rounding up ghouls sounds suspiciously dangerous... Moreso than everything else in this plan.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Rounding up ghouls sounds suspiciously dangerous... Moreso than everything else in this plan.

Ain't that the Truth. I think I will pass on that one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Fortinbras]

... we round up a couple SINless

Be careful. There are quite a few runs that began because someone "rounded up some SINless" that happened to be related to a mob boss, political official or even just some college student with money. Remember the Universal Brotherhood? Karma, chummer. Karma.

[Snow_Fox]

You want to be as legal as possible, you don't want to have pulled off stealing the crown jewels then get picked up for effectively shop lifting a big mac. Remeber each illegal act could be the one the snag you for. They got Capone for tax evasion- not any of them urders he committed but they got him off the streets.