 Look at the bow, what do you mean you do 13P? |
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 Jun 12 2006, 03:23 PM
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#76
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681  |
Ah! Okay, so you're basically talking about blow-through, yes? Past a certain point, increaing the kinetic energy of the arrow just means it's going faster when it comes out the other side. It's even possible that a vastly faster projectile might do less 'damage', punching through so quickly that it leaves a clean wound that has little effect on surrounding tissue. Now, that said, two counter-points. First, the faster (and probably also more massive) arrow WOULD have improved armor penetration. Energy that's wasted blow-through on an unarmored human likely wouldn't be against someone wearing security armor. And second, I'm not sure how well the system handles blow-through for firearms, either...though the combination of DV and AP does make it possible to try to represent it. |
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Jun 12 2006, 03:24 PM
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#77
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
that's naval scale railgun. naval. not navel. frankly, i don't know that i'd be too afraid of navel scale railguns ;) |
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Jun 12 2006, 04:23 PM
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#78
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
When you're firing the arrow at an unarmored human, that point comes up really soon. Any serious hunting bow, with the right broadhead, will go clean through a human. With a 450gr arrow, something like 225fps should be enough to guarantee completely penetration of a human torso.
That's not going to happen. With a broadhead, you never get any real effect on the surrounding tissue -- not at any velocity you can ever achieve with a bow, at least. All you get is the wound cut by the edges of the arrowhead. Whether this wound is cut at 200fps or 400fps, or even 600fps, makes no difference.
In case of a "troll bow", you're definitely looking at a much heavier arrow instead of a much higher velocity. Either way, yes, bigger and heavier projectiles penetrate better. Since the starting point for the penetration is so low, the increase may even seem like a particularly large one. You still won't get penetration as good as you get with AP rifle ammo, but with a siege weapon scale bow you could probably get through flexible body armor without too much trouble (like you can with any rifle, firing just about any ammunition).
Overpenetration isn't the problem, undercavitation is. As you make firearms more powerful, with similar ammunition they will generally make bigger wounds. A .50 BMG FMJ is absolutely guaranteed to go right through a human body and retain a whole lot of velocity on exit. But it also causes cavernous wounds, because it's a big bullet traveling insanely fast. In the 2000+fps range, even a spitzer shape ejects tissue sideways at quite a high velocity. In some cases added velocity or projectile weight make little to no difference to terminal effect on unarmored humans. This is usually because of wrong ammunition choices. With some types of ammunition, nearly any firearm will fully penetrate the human body from most angles, and with others even a long range magnum rifle can be stopped quickly in tissue. By the choosing the right ammunition, you can make sure the increased velocity, projectile weight or projectile diameter is utilized to increase the terminal effect in metahuman bodies. Thus, at least when deciding what the Damage Code of a particular firearm is (and not a particular firearm/ammunition combination), overpenetration is a nonissue. Anyway, there's no actual rule for scaling up the power of firearms and getting a higher Damage Code in return, so the system doesn't need to handle this with firearms like it does with bows. |
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Jun 12 2006, 04:55 PM
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#79
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Surface-to-air thor shot??? :? |
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Jun 12 2006, 08:50 PM
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#80
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
Ignoring the issue of balance of damage or realism, the thing that is wierd to me is that every other strength based weapon in the game is str/2+modifier. The bow gets full strength, it seems like a cut and paste error from SR3 or just bad editing. When every other strength based example is 1/2 str it makes me wonder if the one exception is intentional or a mistake.
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Jun 12 2006, 08:59 PM
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#81
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 27-February 06 Member No.: 8,316 |
yeah but everything else is you applying the strength directly to the target. In this case, you're using a mechanical devise to do damage.
BTW realism is overrated. |
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Jun 12 2006, 09:13 PM
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#82
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 |
actually I think all the str based weapons use mechaincal devices to apply damage. I think they all use of one of the simple machines called the lever. Note I suck at science, math etc. But I think a sword is baiscally just levered force projected into a point/edge. And yes relaism is overrated, I could care less if a troll bow is realistic. I do care if it is unbalanced to the breaking point, and I have trouble seeing a reason why bows should massively out damage mellee combat. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:06 PM
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#83
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Easy soloution, then.
Just rule that bows do str/2+2 damage. Problemo solved. |
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Jun 12 2006, 10:21 PM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
I don't know, I don't see any real mechanical, game balance problems with the troll bow, per se. Of course, after the first few times it was used, God help the troll if he didn't specifically wipe down the arrows before firing, in my games. "Oh, it's one of those arrows the size of a javelin that we've been seeing. Seems like it passed through the car, killing everyone inside, then through a few apartments in the adjacent building. Three residents are at county hospital in critical condition, one's dead. Dust it for prints."
Eventually, that kind of obvious, unique shit would get someone the Distinctive Style flaw (or whatever it's called), as well as a lot more police and media attention. "The Ballista Killer struck again today, murdering four citizens with a single arrow. Police have organized a city-wide manhunt for this vicious killer. And now the weather." [edit]: One other thing that occurs to me. I reckon it would be hard to be stealthy with ginormous arrows that travel the faster than speed of sound, leaving sonic booms as they get fired. Nevermind the bowstring twang. |
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Jun 12 2006, 11:55 PM
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#85
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The rules don't say troll bows fire arrows faster than the speed of sound, nor would such a thing make any sense at all, so at least be sure to warn your players beforehand if you're going to make that kind of ruling.
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Jun 12 2006, 11:58 PM
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#86
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Well, I was sort of kidding on the "Mach 3" comment, but I'd imagine such a thing would be more audible. Not necessary across town, or anything, but would certainly be more audible. |
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Jun 13 2006, 12:28 AM
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#87
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,479 Joined: 6-May 05 From: Idaho Member No.: 7,377 |
They make things today that muffle the sound of the bowstring cutting through the air. I'd imagine that by 2070 they have done even better.
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Jun 13 2006, 12:35 AM
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#88
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
On reading the whole blow-through and naval scale damage equilavency, I just can't help but have this image of the poor sap who get's shot having his rigid plate chest piece "blow-through" into the poor sap behind im as the troll-bow pins him to god.
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Jun 13 2006, 07:59 PM
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#89
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
I've just read through this entire thread and noticed that no-one has commented on bows requiring a simple action to load (Ready Weapon).
In terms of game-balance, a troll-bow is a nice tool, but you could have two burst fires at 8P for each shot you get off with a bow and with APDS you get a nice -4 AP. It still leaves the bow as a the better choice when you run into a dragon, but its not as good at mook despatching. Perhaps it's just the style of game I favour, but for me, the power of the bow is offset by the fewer tactical options (e.g. no supressive fire), the odd drop off at short range compared to an assault rifle (the favoured weapon in my experience), the lower rate of fire and the difficulty of concealing it or use in confined areas. As you can tell, combat scenarios in my games tend to be very tactical affairs with low-powered but organised opposition. In these circumstances, having to stand up to shoot whilst everyone else is crouched behind the crates with their rifles is a big problem. So I leave the bow as it is. Strength is normally a little bit of a dump stat in Shadowrun anyway. If someone is bumping up their strength to 11 then they're doing it at the expense of something else and they ought to get something in return for living dangerously. EDIT: I'll also turn a blind eye to the Troll Samural carrying 100 bullets. The one with a hundred reinforced arrows with broad heads isn't so lucky. |
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Jun 13 2006, 08:12 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
True, knasser. I don't see any particular game balance problems with the bow as written - stat-wise, it's balanced versus firearms, given the SS + reload actions required, the lack of concealability, etc etc etc. I think it's more an issue of plausbility / internal consistency. Not 'is a weapon with these stats fair' but 'does it make sense for a bow to do as much damage as a full-auto burst from an assault rifle'.
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Jun 15 2006, 03:24 PM
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#91
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,002 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Canada Member No.: 8,494 |
The point of the bow is not that your strength powers the bow but the strength stored in the bow itself. This means you just need to be strong enough to pull the thing back. Hence the StrMin + 2 damage.
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Jun 15 2006, 03:41 PM
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#92
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Huh? Your strength does 'power' the bow. But if by 'strength stored in the bow' you meant 'the bow stores the power you put into it until you release it', then yes, that's true too. Using the bow's strength rating rather than the archer's (higher) strength makes sense because it's the limiting factor on how much energy you can put into it. So yes, using StrMin is appropriate. But...I didn't see anyone actually questioning that part. Except perhaps to suggest StrMin/2+some number instead. |
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Jun 15 2006, 05:18 PM
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#93
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
I believe that what TBRMInsanity meant was that a bow allows you to apply a much greater percentage of your strength to a projectile then would otherwise be possible. Throwing weapons use STR/2 so it would make sense that the more efficient bow uses STR.
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Jun 15 2006, 05:41 PM
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#94
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
I'm all good with the bow doing more damage than a thrown weapon. I don't have any quantitative comparison to offer, but I think the fact that thrown weapons have generally become obsolete in any culture that knew how to make bows is a pretty good argument in that direction (though some of that is from their superior range, accuracy, etc). I do think it's a bit odd that a bow does more damage than a melee weapon at any above-average strength, though. Would you rather the huge honkin' troll shoot you with an arrow, or hit you with a great bloody axe? |
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Jun 15 2006, 05:47 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
[edit]: Nevermind. Friends don't let friends quote bad science.
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Jun 15 2006, 06:11 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Heh. The break-even point is Strength 5, though, which isn't even super-human. A Str5 bow does 7P; a Str5 PC with an axe does 6P. |
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Jun 15 2006, 06:13 PM
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#97
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Big pointy swords should definitely be more damaging than tiny arrows. Luckily there's an easy fix known as Mr. House Rule. :)
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Jun 15 2006, 06:15 PM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,150 Joined: 19-December 05 From: Rhein-Ruhr Megaplex Member No.: 8,081 |
Urban Myth alert.
Isn't it unhygienic to use an axe with blood on it? :D |
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Jun 15 2006, 06:18 PM
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#99
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 8-June 06 Member No.: 8,681 |
Ooooh, good point. After the victim makes their damage resistance test, how about another against disease? :) |
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Jun 15 2006, 06:19 PM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 475 Joined: 13-March 06 From: dusty Mexican borderlands Member No.: 8,372 |
Huh. Just read up on it a little, and so it is. My mistake. I've edited the reply accordingly. |
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