 Turn to Goo, Organleggers dream? |
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  Mar 13 2006, 07:21 PM
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#1
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Shooting Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465  |
In SR4, the spell "Turn to Goo" (props to SR1!) mentions that the target's cyberware remains uneffected by the spell. Does that mean you can sort through the goo (yuck) and "dig out" someone's cyberware? I can see how using this spell to remove gear, foci and other "macro" items plausable, but what about the internal goodness? How hard is it to chop-up or seperate the goo and do all sorts of nasty things with it (to it)?
Not that I plan on or have runners who have suggested this, but it like to see what everyone thinks. Thanks, GTT |
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Mar 13 2006, 07:36 PM
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#2
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,026 Joined: 23-November 05 From: Seattle (Really!) Member No.: 7,996 |
My take is that all the organic material becomes totally amorphus and indstiguishable, so you get an equivalent mass of homogenous goo, possibly with bits of cyber sticking out. So while this makes it a good spell for Cyber removal it's probably not possible to remove specific body parts by means of this spell. This also brings up the question of what happens if some of the goos is separated or removed? Could a carefully calculated removal of goo mass be the worlds fastest (but probably expensive) weight loss technique?
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Mar 13 2006, 07:54 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Funny, that's the second thing that came to my mind (using this spell to harvest cyberware). Horrific, horrific idea, but... Well, apparently effective. I'm looking at this spell, and thinking more and more like it should have a higher drain. |
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Mar 13 2006, 08:52 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 834 Joined: 30-June 03 Member No.: 4,832 |
I had a plan make a used cyber goods doctor who would use the petrify spell to do the same thing, since it turns you into pure calcium carbonate, you can use a simple acid like vinegar or hydrocloric to dissolve the person, and keep all the cyber.
I believe also that the sr3 rules for petrify stated that if you took off a petrified persons leg, that it would be removed when the spell effect ended. So in turn to goo, you would probably remove some goo, and have it take a chunk out of some where. |
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Mar 13 2006, 09:49 PM
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#5
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The gooified have a hefty barrier rating. It is simplier to use the goo form for transport and drop the spell when you want to remove the cyber.
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Mar 13 2006, 09:56 PM
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#6
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
I wonder if the goo is easily compressed into other shapes. For example, can you pour the good of a character into ... say ... a cooler which is then delivered to the target facility and taken inside similar to the Trojan Horse. Mage drops the spell, goo turns back to character (cooler probably destroyed), and now you've got an inside man. :wobble:
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Mar 13 2006, 10:17 PM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
This is the most important point that everyone seems to be missing about this spell. The "goo" is still "solid". You cannot simply "reach in" and extract the cyberware. I'm reading it that even cyberware on the "surface" (eyes for instance) is still "stuck" to the goo and cannot simply be pulled off (or out). Just like SR3 Petrify, any damage done to the Goo translates into damage done to the person. Thus, to remove that internal headware memory from the Goo you would need to cut into the Goo sufficiently deep enough to get it out, in the process, causing as much damage as if the poor slot was in his metahuman form. It is not an attack and "instant death" spell. Otherwise it would probably be in the Combat Spells section. The real use of the spell, as I see it, is transportation, as Dashifen mentions. Have to do an extraction? Goo-ify your target then stuff him in a cooler or backpack or something and walk out with him. Or, Goo-ify your team's PhysAd then "flush" him into the target facility and then release the spell when he's on the other side. I never saw you being able to simply rip someone apart with this spell. |
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Mar 13 2006, 10:23 PM
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#8
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
That'd be fun. Stuck inside a 55-galon drum while the truck passes through a ward...ewwww. |
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Mar 13 2006, 11:24 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
I'm not missing the point. However, okay, Body + net hits for an average person is 4 - the barrier armor rating of a tree, or normal furniture. While that's certainly going to be difficult to pull apart by hand for another average person, a random troll or someone with a monosword should have little to no trouble. Even your average street sam wouldn't be that much of an issue. Body 4-5 plus 1-2 net hits? Armor 6 is hardwood or a standard chain link. Again, people have been doing carpentry for years, and bolt-cutters are a nuyen a dozen... |
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Mar 13 2006, 11:44 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Roughly the same trouble as dismembering a regular corpse. If the mage can safely sustain till they get the victim to a chopshop why bother risk damaging the equipment? If not kill him and cut off the interesting bits as per normal. Turn To Goo doesn't really change that, and is more risky than Stun Bolt because not only do you have to sustain it but you also have to correctly guess the Body of the victim before you cast. |
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Mar 13 2006, 11:56 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Or Assense. :) |
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Mar 14 2006, 02:09 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
This is actually an old topic. Whip up an applicable spirit and use a Search service. Note that the barrier rating of the goo is equivalent to the barrier rating created by Turn to Stone for sake of comparison. That is to say, it's just as hard to chip it out of rock as it would be to pull it out of supersticky gunk. Brahm is wise here; TtG doesn't make your victim into pliable Jell-O with cyberware floating around in it to be plucked out as easily as decorative fruit. Just save yourself the drain and use the Impromptu Troll Uninstallation method if you really want that guy's cyberarm. |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:32 AM
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#13
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
ROFLLMAO :rotfl: |
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Mar 14 2006, 09:28 AM
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#14
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Determining Body or other Physical Attributes isn't on the Assensing table, but slotting it at Theshold 4 to know the exact number, and Threshold 3 to know roughly isn't that bad an idea I suppose. You might also let they try a Medicine Test, but few runners are going to have that. |
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Mar 14 2006, 03:23 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 327 Joined: 28-January 06 Member No.: 8,209 |
Huh. I admit I didn't look it up, but I said that because I thought I specifically remembered 3 or 4 successes having "exact physical attributes" mentioned. |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:51 PM
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#16
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
What it does have for Threshold 4 is Th e exact Essence, Magic and Force of the subject. Threshold 3 gives you a higher/lower indication of the same. For spirits you can work out the Physical Attributes from that, but leaves you in the dark on everyone else and I don't expect Turn to Goo to work that well on a spirit. Though I guess I never really considered it before. |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:53 PM
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#17
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I'd be okay with it. |
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Mar 14 2006, 04:54 PM
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#18
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
So couldn't it just unmanifest? I guess goo isn't conscious, so wouldn't unconsciousness disrupt or unmanifest it? Or would it be turned into goo on the astral plane. WTF is astral goo?
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Mar 14 2006, 05:10 PM
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#19
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
I don't believe that unconsciousness disrupts a spirit; it actually needs to be "killed" to be disrupted. At least, that's why my mage prefers to KO patrol spirits since it nullifies them without alerting their summoners. It couldn't be turned to goo on the astral plane, as TtG is a Physical spell so wouldn't work on purely astral targets. |
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Mar 14 2006, 05:29 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 371 Joined: 10-January 06 From: Regina Member No.: 8,145 |
How do you KO a spirit? Does it have to be Manifested so you can do Stun damage? Oh wait, I think I remember reading that in Astral Combat a Magician can choose to do Stun damage, so I suppose that could be done. Very interesting. |
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Mar 14 2006, 06:03 PM
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#21
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
For the record:
The wording unfortunately suggests that there's just one Condition Monitor Track. This is not the case (unless spirits don't have separate CMTs, but I haven't seen anything to that effect), so some assumptions have to be made. We assumed that the wording meant to say "a spirit's Physical Condition Monitor Track." That would mean you could KO a spirit by filling up its Stun Track. The spirit won't actually go away until it's "killed." This is how we've been playing. It could be just as likely that the wording meant to say "either of a spirit's Condition Monitor Tracks" or "on one of a spirit's Condition Monitor Tracks" or even "a spirit’s Physical or Stun Condition Monitor Track." Those would be bigger alterations to the printed text, so we assumed they weren't the case. It could be, mind you, but we're assuming not. Personally I'd be happier if all spirits had just one generic damage track (equal to 8+half Force), as it would make the damn things more vulnerable. I'd also be conceptually okay with the idea that spirits don't differientiate between Stun and Physical damage and both go into the same track. But anyway, that's where I'm at. |
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Mar 14 2006, 06:21 PM
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#22
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,635 Joined: 27-November 05 Member No.: 8,006 |
Just use the NPC Grunt rule on them to give them a single track. Unconcious or disrupted they are bye-bye for that combat. To make it easier just use 8+Force/2 to determine the size of the track since their Body is only there sometimes. As for Turn To Goo disrupting, the spell doesn't really say it fills up the condition track. Even if the track changes length, which can happen via a buff/debuff spell, the spirit can't pop back up so it isn't really doing boxes of damage. |
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Mar 14 2006, 07:17 PM
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#23
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,651 Joined: 23-September 05 From: Marietta, GA Member No.: 7,773 |
Right, and that'd be an elegant solution in most cases. However, if you're trying to bypass a spirit without its summoner knowing about it, there'd still need to be a distinction between "unconscious" and "disrupted." If spirits aren't supposed to make that distinction then there's no problem. I do like treating them as grunts, though. I wish we could extend that paradigm and deny them their own bucket of Edge.
Aye, it says the subject is unconscious. Which brings us back to "can spirits go unconscious" and "if spirits go unconscious, are they disrupted?" It gets further complicated because the text says spirits are disrupted when a/the condition monitor fills up. As you pointed out, Turn to Goo doesn't touch the damage track, so that suggests the spirit wouldn't disrupt. ~~~~~ I feel like a rules lawyer even talking about this, but it's not so much that I'm looking for a loophole as desperately seeking the absence of one. :P |
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Mar 16 2006, 03:20 AM
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#24
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Target Group: Members Posts: 91 Joined: 27-June 05 From: FL, USA Member No.: 7,468 |
What I've been wondering regarding the Turn to Goo spell is this...
Given that it is a Physical spell and appears to basically be a 'specialized' variant of the Shapechange spell. Given that it appears to be commonly held that spending essense on something makes it a part of you as far as magic is concerned (for example, the idea that cyberware stays with you when shapechanged (regardless of whether it can be used) because you've paid essense for it) Why does cyberware, that you have paid essense for, not gooify along with the rest of you when affected by this spell? It seems an odd and un-needed variant from an otherwise reasonable rule of thumb. |
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Mar 16 2006, 03:28 AM
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#25
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I agree. It seems inconsistent with the rest of SRs magic system.
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