 Augmentation Review, What are your thoughts? |
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 Sep 6 2007, 11:37 PM
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#151
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Prime Runner  Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665  |
Heh. You and I both play that way of course, but Natural Weapon is a Physical Power, technically you aren't supposed to be able to attack astral opponents with it.
Dual Nature is supposed to allow you to use your natural weapons against aastral foes, but it doesn't actually say that it can do that. Which is, obviously, a flaw in the written rules for Dual Nature. Basically it needs about one or two extra paragraphs describing Dual Natured critters and how they interact with physical and astral stuff. That's just plain missing from the current rules. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2007, 12:26 AM
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#152
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Already been stated, but please bring this back to focusing on the review of Augmentation. Not shooting down the discussion as I'm certainly interested in it as well. Move it to another thread.
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Sep 7 2007, 12:41 AM
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#153
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
In order to take this in a more Augmentation-themed direction:
An important note: MADS does not reduce magic rating in any normal way. It gives a dicepool penalty to Magic tests and if it gets high enough removes all of the victim's Magic all at once - which auses an awakened character to become mundane and a dual critter to "die". A Cyberzombie is dual natured, so they would be killed by this experience. See, totally on-topic, as it takes place entirely on pages 132 and 144 of the book this topic is in reference to. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:00 AM
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#154
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
<sniffle><sob> Goodbye, Hatchetman.
In regards to my comment about power creep....the GM can simply rule that CZs are not available as player characters. I believe, however, that it may be doable, provided the disadvantages are rigidly enforced, and the CZ PC is given foes to match his abilities. Some players and gms don't like the high powered, world shaking campaigns (think Harlequin's Back), prefering to keep things more street level. Both styles have their merits and drawbacks. To each his own. |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:16 AM
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#155
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Just looking over the section on Age Rejuvenation....I was thinking of using the Body (natural, not modified) attribute for the maximum times it can be used. Also, in previous editions, I seem to recall that cyber/bioware interfered with the effectiveness of gene treatments; is this still true?
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Sep 7 2007, 03:17 AM
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#156
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Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
That doesn't change the fact that detailed construction rules on CZ's aren't really a necessity, not like more cyber is. I'd certainly trade the entire cybermancy section right now, in exchange for an index and an appearance in a Threats-style book. |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:22 AM
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#157
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Doesn't the monthly surgeries and need for expert medical and psychological help on demand pretty much rule out CZs for players unless the GM gives them lots of money with any special ban hammer application?
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Sep 7 2007, 03:24 AM
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#158
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Can't really argue with that. I thoroughly enjoyed both Threats books. And in Cybermancy, those two anonymous posters seemed to think that cybermantic magic was creating a pressure cooker of bad karma, which would have extremely delitirious effects if it "overflowed". Sounds like a good "Threats 3" section to me.
I meant to type "Cybertechnology". |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:25 AM
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#159
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
not if, for example, another player had a high medicine skill and a medical shop or facility. the street doc, while not as commonly played as, say, the hacker, combat mage, or street sam, is not an entirely unheard-of character either. |
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Sep 7 2007, 03:28 AM
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#160
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
It would be an extremely difficult existence, to say the least. But thems the breaks for people who want cyberzombies as pcs.
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Sep 7 2007, 03:44 AM
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#161
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
If you put a cyberzombie on something like a space station, would any accompanying mage then be able to use their magic (while in his radius) as if in a -4 BC instead of the normal -10 to -12?
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Sep 7 2007, 04:04 AM
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#162
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I'm pretty sure the worse applies. Otherwise it's cyberzombies in spaaaaaace all the time and they're the mage's new best friend up the well. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:21 AM
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#163
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
It does say that the Rating 4 background count takes effect regardless of what the ambient mana levels are. So yes, for the same reason that a cyberzombie doesn't die when he enters a bad mana region, a mage can stand next to a cyberzombie and use his magic in a merely crippled capacity on top of a gravity well.
Of course, that background count is like three meters across the long way and has a scary scary man standing in the middle of it, so it's difficult to imagine successfully using most magical operations in such a scenario. You can't conjure for instance, and the "Line of Sight" capabilities of your spells are virtually meaningless. I could imagine pulling off some Health spell scenarios though, because they are touch range. You have the cyberzombie lie supine on top of the patient and then you have the magician lay down on top of that and reach around to cast a spell without having any part of their body or the spell extend into the vacuum which surrounds the CZ's tiny bubble. Awkward? Difficult? Kind of weaksauce? Yes, it is all of these things. But people other than Aztechnology and Ares can't do it at all and every time you're playing with different physics than your opponents that's something to base a competitive advantage off of. So you can be damn sure that at this very moment there is a research group on the Tlaloque Spindle trying to figure out something to do with seriously attenuated - but possible - magic in space to justify the hundreds of millions of nuyen it took to get them there. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:32 AM
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#164
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,650 Joined: 21-July 07 Member No.: 12,328 |
Umm... it looks to me that you need more than just medical skills. You also need someone with great clinical psychology skills to make sure he doesn't kill himself or just stop ticking over, experts with nanoware, gene therapy and cyberware to keep everything running and a huge supply of drugs. It's going to require more than one doctor just to keep him running, and serious facilities, not some ripper docs chopshop. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:36 AM
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#165
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Thanks Frank. Lots of run potential there. :)
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Sep 7 2007, 03:31 PM
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#166
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Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
Psychology, granted. There's one knowledge skill. Nanoware, gene therapy, cyberware, etc. Isn't that all part of Cybertechnology? (SR4 pg 123) So one skill group plus one knowledge skill. That's really not all that difficult to achieve even as a secondary ability of another character. |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:00 PM
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#167
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
And the Chemical Production Facility, that's another 200 grand down the tubes. You'll want a Medical Facility as well. Also a Cloning Facility if the cancer starts cropping up. Those all cost about the same.
Sure, you can do it. But by the time you've done it, you've become a corporation. It would be much cheaper to simply purchase these materials and services from Universal Omnitech. Cheaper in :nuyen: at least. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2007, 04:22 PM
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#168
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
All the details for maintaining a CZ are now written up in the rules.
You must add 2000Ұ a month for medical expenses, own or have access to a chemical facility and not turn your IMS off. |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:25 PM
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#169
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,246 Joined: 8-June 07 Member No.: 11,869 |
Yeah Frank, don't you know the new cyberzombie rules? Oh wait... :D
To maintain a cyberzombie, do you need 2000 nuyen per month AND a chemical facility or just a chemical facility? |
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Sep 7 2007, 05:42 PM
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#170
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Having a cyberzombie on a runner team has more to do with the costs involved for being a cyberzombie than anything else. I mean, who the hell would invest in the millions upon millions of nuyen it takes to turn someone into a cyberzombie if they only have a max of 250,000 nuyen of implants in 'em at the start of the game?
If you're playing in a campaign where money is no issue, either during character creation or after, then sure it's a reasonable request to make of the GM. But under normal circumstances you aren't going to have a cyberzombie on a team because it's just not feasible from a storytelling or believability point of view. |
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Sep 7 2007, 06:21 PM
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#171
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
Heh. You need 2000 :nuyen: worth of drugs that come from a chemical facility. If you actually own the facility you're probably actually only paying like 100 :nuyen: for the raw materials. But if you want to make it yourself, you'll need to acquire the recipes from somewhere - these meds aren't public domain. If you happen to have a chemist on hand and the secret recipe, then that Chemical Facility will pay for itself just on the meds in about 10 years. Of course, it's not like a Shadowrunner team can't figure out useful things to do with a chemical facility.
I'm not sure about that. While starting characters only get a quarter million at max, getting yourself to six million is hardly unthinkable. Bringing Usama Bin Laden to justice carries a current reward of 27 million. A four man team who pulled off a single high profile world changing run like that could pay a cool 3 mil to their contacts to help hide and walk away with 6 million in cash each. That's enough to make a perfectly respectable cyberzombie form a standing start. Obviously, that won't be what happens in every campaign. But a high end runner could legitimately expect to get 6 million in the intermediate future, so cyberzombification is certainly an achievable (if extravagant) character goal. And that was the goal of the piece. Make it so that Cybermancy was just barely in reach of some games and out of reach of other games. -Frank |
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Sep 7 2007, 06:24 PM
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#172
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
How much Frank had to do with the current CZ rules set I don't know, but RAW is pretty clear. It's a hell of a lot easier than it was in the past. |
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Sep 7 2007, 06:26 PM
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#173
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,379 Joined: 16-April 02 From: the LI shadows Member No.: 2,607 |
Mu-hahahahaaaa! Just picked the book up today!
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Sep 7 2007, 06:42 PM
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#174
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
i think that was the point of the original comment (which was something of a joke). you see, frank kinda wrote the cyberzombies section, as i understand it =P |
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Sep 7 2007, 07:02 PM
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#175
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 212 Joined: 30-November 04 Member No.: 6,858 |
I kind of figured he was involved but I don't know how the rules changed after they left his hands. He and Synner don't seem to be entirely On Message when it comes to interpreting Augmentation. Someone upthread, not Frank, suggested that a CZ needed some top flight psychologists to maintain their mental balance, well not according to RAW. The IMS is all he needs, as fluff it does say CZ are generally unhappy but it's just that, fluff, there's no roll involved. The worst that can happen is you gain one of the negative cyber-qualities, but given that you can buy off negative qualities at double BP cost in Karma, even these problems aren't insolvable. |
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