Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Augmentation Review
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Zhan Shi
Being someone who is not particularly interested in the tech side of things, I thought it was "OK". The section that most grabbed my attention was the section on cybermancy. As far as writing and artwork, I would give it a 10.
Dashifen
One word: wonderfun!
jklst14
Agreed with Dashifen. I think it was a fantastic supplement. It made cyberlimbs awesome, for the first time in SR history. It updated old favorites from Man & Machine as well as providing lots of fun new toys. Until this book, I really felt SR was slanted towards mages but after Augmentation, the balance feels just right to me.
Buster
I think Augmentation is the best SR4 book to date. As a mage, I would say that Street Magic is more useful to me of course, but Augmentation is very well crafted. The fluff is interesting and informative and the crunch is detailed and useful. They fixed some limitations to cyberlimbs, which is cool. The new positive and negative qualities were really needed and fit the game perfectly. The nanotech and genetech sections were surprisingly large sections with lots of useful stuff. The artwork is great too and adds a lot to the feel of the book. I can't really say anything negative about the book...I'm not sure why the penis and breast implants each got their own sections instead of being rolled into the cosmetic mods section, but I'm told that Americans don't understand those things.
Zhan Shi
On the whole, we Americans have an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Many of us, including myself and (I think) Doc Funk, do not see how adding rules for cybergenetalia enhances the game; it's "wasted space" that could have been more fruitfully used. But SR also has an international following, so "When in Rome..." and all that.
nathanross
AUGMENTATIONS COVER IS THE WORST SHADOWRUN COVER EVER

Now that I have that out of my system, I must say, Man & Machine was a great supplement, Augmentation is better. I seriously enjoyed reading through it. It put together so much fluff that had been scattered about. Now cyber, bio, nano, genetech and more are all in one ~200p book.

My only gripe is that after looking over the book and all the gear, Im kind of worried how some of the things are going to stack and how balance will be.

Sure, hackers have the ware now to not only out match TM's further, but also spank hacker-adepts. I have yet to total how many dice you can get in conjunction with Logic or Intuition tests, but it cant be small. Sure, most of it is limited to knowledge skills, but common! I actually wish for more flavorful, if not downright pointless ware like the cyberpenis, instead of trying to make every......single.......tiny......... ounce ........ of ware augment the character in some way. There are way too DP modifying wares on the market now. And now there aren't even trade offs for most of the stuff aside from the essence cost.
Synner667
QUOTE (Buster)
I'm not sure why the penis and breast implants each got their own sections instead of being rolled into the cosmetic mods section, but I'm told that Americans don't understand those things.

Hmmm...

Not quite sure what you mean by Europeans "don't understand those things", when the US is much more obsessed with cosmetic surgery and the shallowness of external appearance..
..But there you go.


As you say, there's no reason at all why they should have sections devoted to them..
..Unless they want to prove they can write up similar material available in CP2020 for the past couple of years ??


just my thruppence...
Fortune
QUOTE (Synner667)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 5 2007, 03:07 AM)
...but I'm told that Americans don't understand those things.

Hmmm...

Not quite sure what you mean by Europeans "don't understand those things", when the US is much more obsessed with cosmetic surgery and the shallowness of external appearance..
..But there you go.

???
kzt
It's pretty good, well worth the money. It reads well, much better than I was expecting. It's not just a list of "stuff". There is a lot of cool stuff, a fair amount of stuff I still think should just provide a fiated effect that only gives a +2 or something lame like that and some stuff that is quite insane. But insane in a cool way.

I still would pay an extra $5-10 it they would just roll the stuff from the BBB into Augmentation so you wouldn't keep having to look junk up in the BBB, the errata and in the FAQ to see how the add-on in augmentation works.
knasser
Probably the best supplement yet, and I have a very high regard for the 4th edition so far (and have bought every book for it so far).

The cover is pig ugly and that is quite bluntly the worst thing I can say for it. It is stuffed with flavour and useful things. It expands the power level upwards to compete with magic, which was necessary, but does so in a balanced way with, based on my limited use so far, well-pitched availabilities, essence costs and prices. The fluff is superbly written and really draws you in. Artwork is sparse but good. And it has Kid Stealth legs. biggrin.gif

To the anti-penis crowd, I can only ask again why they complain about the cyber-genitalia but not implanted horns, silky skin, chloroplast skin, etc., if, as they say, their complaint is that it is wasted space that does not have a game application. I visited the US about eight years ago and found the people there friendly, forthright and hugely certain of what was right and wrong. When it came to sexuality, everyone was militant. Those who had sex outside a relationship were proud of it, those who had sex only within a relationship were proud of it. Gays were proud of it. Straights were either proud of their straightness or (oddly) proud of having gay friends to the point that I even met people who pretended to be lesbian or bisexual! Everybody was making a statement about their way of life.

The original SR London sourcebook put it well, I think, when it said that the difference between European and American sex was primarily oral... americans talked more about it - before, during and after. biggrin.gif Europeans tend to just get on with it.

I hope this doesn't cause offense, but it is my genuine impression of having spent time in both European and American cultures.
Casper
QUOTE (Zhan Shi)
On the whole, we Americans have an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality. Many of us, including myself and (I think) Doc Funk, do not see how adding rules for cybergenetalia enhances the game; it's "wasted space" that could have been more fruitfully used. But SR also has an international following, so "When in Rome..." and all that.

You know it was a nod to the cyberpunk 2020 of old.
Ol' Scratch
Think what you like. They already said the reason they included it was, and I paraphrase, "because we couldn't think of a reason not to" with "(without looking like prudish Americans)" written in between the lines. Of course a few days later, the same guy was complaining about how they didn't have enough room in the book to fit everything they would have liked in, too. Which is exactly why it's so pathetic it's in there at all. Not because of the actual content, but because that space could have been used for something useful.
Synner
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Think what you like. They already said the reason they included it was, and I paraphrase, "because we couldn't think of a reason not to" with "(without looking like prudish Americans)" written in between the lines. Of course a few days later, the same guy was complaining about how they didn't have enough room in the book to fit everything they would have liked in, too. Which is exactly why it's so pathetic it's in there at all. Not because of the actual content, but because that space could have been used for something useful.

The correct paraphrasing would have been "because we couldn't think of a good reason to cut them" (no pun intended) with "(without looking like prudish Americans)." We decided to include them at the expense of other things because we thought they were just as valid an addition (for some groups) - and we stand by that decision.
Ol' Scratch
Oh, right, right. I keep forgetting how important and constantly requested it was to hear players snicker "heh heh, I got a cybercock!" versus, you know, all the other myriad and actual game-related things that could have been put into the book instead. Nevermind that cybersex organs could have easily been written in as a single sentence under cosmetic surgery, too. They fully deserved -- nay, demanded -- multiple paragraphs all their own.

Hopefully the next company that gets the license will correct that philosophy in future books.
The Jopp
My only gripe about Augmentation is that even though cyberlimbs have become BETTER they are far from what their description implies.

1: Availability
For trolls and orcs with exceptional physical attributes (compared to the common man) the availability becomes killing.

2: Cost
Very popular among the poor it says, even though the base price runs between two to four months middle lifestyles

3: metahuman unfriendly
Not automatically tailored to average metahuman attributes but must customize even the most basic limb for high cost.

End result: Too hich cost for non runners (and for some reason I see non runners as the companies big customer base). Too high availability even for those with real SIN’s.
Ol' Scratch
I agree, the cost is high compared to how commonplace they're supposed to be amongst "the poor," but they are still cheaper than a cloned replacement. Not by much, again another hit against it, but they are.

I agree about the other points though. Particularly Availability (the way they're handling it is all kinds of fucked up) and the lack of baseline stats for metahumans. That said, the actual rules for the limbs themselves are scores above previous rules for cyberlimbs were. They're not just storage compartments for cool gadgets. They're that and more.

I just wish redlining wasn't as brutal as it's listed as. Some discouragement for using it was needed, sure, but it's something I couldn't justify myself using in almost any situation.
Blade
The stuff is good:
- lot of new stuff, most of them available and useful without being too powerful.
- Most of the augs allow the player to customize his character with a special ability or "power" rather than just max out one skill/attribute or another.
- No "must-have" (implants that some kind of characters need to buy to be good at their job) except for the encephalon for hackers (but I guess it helps non-adept hackers to get on par with magically augmented hacking skills)
- Mages and adepts aren't necessarily the best in every field anymore, and mundanes can have their own funky tricks.
- Fluff in the stuff! Good to remind players and GM how people in 2070 can look like and to add flavor to PCs and NPCs. Mentioning it is good, but adding it to the equipement list is making sure that the players will notice it and maybe even buy it.
- new horizons, but still cyberpunkish (not too many transhuman/post-cyberpunk tech)

The fluff is... mixed:
- Interesting and well done scientific explanations. They give a ground to those who absolutely need them while not going too far to avoid being ridiculous in some cases.
- Some interesting info about corporations, and how these augmentation techs are used.
- But it lacks atmosphere. The fluff is still too far from street-level. The shadowtalks are mostly flavorless. Most of the time it's just '>I agree, >I disagree' with the occasional archetypal '>I like tech (cyberguy), >Tech is baaad (shaman), >You're stupid, >No you are'. It's good to have ingame content and shadowtalks in rulebooks, but they lack the charm of the 1st edition sammy crazy about this new gun, or commenting the advertising blurb. Oh, except for that anecdote about the BattlePez. It took me a few seconds to figure it out, but it made me laugh out loud.

About the penile implant, if you're so much sorry about "losing" a few lines of text, just replace it with :
QUOTE
Wired rocket blades of combat awesomness : These sharp rocket blades look cool and are definitely super useful to the game because they give additional dice to combat tests.
Ol' Scratch
They were complaining about a lack of space for more interesting content, too. Despite their apparent need to feel like they have to defend their addition of cocks and tits as if they were the President of the United States defending some dunderheaded decision.
Fortune
QUOTE (Blade)
- No "must-have" (implants that some kind of characters need to buy to be good at their job) except for the encephalon for hackers (but I guess it helps non-adept hackers to get on par with magically augmented hacking skills)

Other than maybe the Attention Coprocessor.
Mr. Croup
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
Oh, right, right. I keep forgetting how important and constantly requested it was to hear players snicker "heh heh, I got a cybercock!" versus, you know, all the other myriad and actual game-related things that could have been put into the book instead. Nevermind that cybersex organs could have easily been written in as a single sentence under cosmetic surgery, too. They fully deserved -- nay, demanded -- multiple paragraphs all their own.

Hopefully the next company that gets the license will correct that philosophy in future books.

Simmer down, really there's no reason to get so upset over something as slight as a paragraph of text on a cyber-willy. I mean it can hardly be considered paragraphs of text and it certainly doesn't take up all that much space. To be honest the whole cyber-booby and cyber-willy thing really are small footnotes to the rest of the stuff and if you think they aren't game related then you might as well throw out all the cosmetic bioware, cyberware, geneware and nanoware that serves no funtion but to allow you to role extra dice in game.

I personally think it was a good idea to include them, for too long i've felt that Shadowrun has been treated with kid-gloves to greater and lesser extents and the inclusion of implants such as these at least gives the game more scope. You may not agree, but what would happen if poor Joe Samurai is caught in an explosion and has most of his lower body mangled beyond repair? Replacement legs? sure. Replacement penis? Terribly sorry that's a little bit beyond the pale for our liking, i'm afraid you're going to have to go neuter.

My point is, that from a roleplay perspective it has it's place, especially considering the proliferation of Transhumanity in SR4 and if you're group feels comfortable with dealing with roleplay issues of this kind. It's a terrible assumption to think that every player of SR is going to go running around giggling like some school kid after hearing his first dick joke. I'd like to think that most roleplayers are mature enough to realise that if you don't want to use something in a book because they find it uncomfortable then they shouldn't use it - The golden rule of Roleplaying games.

Or would you have preferred the cyber-penis to include the ability to piss bullets or neurotoxin? It seems to me that many of the implants that don't have an actual in game purpose in SR are derided as a waste of space whilst those that have a purpose - making the character a more efficient dealer of death or l33t hacker are rarely grumbled at. Which is a shame as i find the cosmetic implants a great breath of fresh air into something that was risking becoming very stale.

My only bone (no pun intended, i assure you) of contention is that they did not give the vagina the same service as they did the humble penis, though i think the same rules and essence cost would easily be useable for a female implant.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
Other than maybe the Attention Coprocessor.

That's not a must have for a specific archetype. It's just a really good choice for any character. There's quite a few of those in both Augmentation and the core rules.

I would add a Nanohive with Control Rig Boosters for a Rigger, though. Up to +3 dice on all vehicle tests (in addition to the +2 bonus from a standard Control Rig) is pretty sweet.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Mr. Croup @ Sep 5 2007, 03:37 AM)
Simmer down, really there's no reason to get so upset over something as slight as a paragraph of text on a cyber-willy.

Once again: It has less to do with the fact that it's cyber cocks and tits and more to do with how pathetically useless and juvenile it is, as opposed to the space, time, and effort that could have been spent on adding something more useful and relevant to the game (which, also again, is something Synner was directly whining about in regards to not having enough space for things in another thread some time ago).

It could easily have been about cyberwarts or cyberingrown hairs. Both of those can be (and are) covered by the short blurb on cosmetic implants. There was no need whatsoever to devote multiple paragraphs -- and it most certainly was multiple paragraphs -- on the subject of tits and dicks. Neither of which should even come into play in most games, except by juvenile little brats looking for a cheap laugh. (Who could have gotten that exact same laugh by just saying the character had them without needing "rules" for it.)
Mr. Croup
No need, in your opinion.

I'm still trying to work out why you believe the idea to be juvenile. If you really don't like the idea, don't use it, but i'm certainly against the idea that only "juvenile brats" would use these implants in their game for a "cheap laugh". Why can't an adult of sound mind use them as what they are - roleplaying aids - without being chalked up as infant-minded?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (knasser)
To the anti-penis crowd, I can only ask again why they complain about the cyber-genitalia but not implanted horns, silky skin, chloroplast skin, etc., if, as they say, their complaint is that it is wasted space that does not have a game application.

Because the latter are somewhat original. Enlarged boobs and dicks are just standard stuff today.

And, honestly: I hate the whole Cosmetics section in Augmention with a passion - both cyberware and bioware. And it got nothing to do with the selection of example implants.
Because in the main book, cosmetic stuff was free of Essence cost. 'Pimp your Character' to your hearts content... it was fine. Put the 'punk' back in Cyberpunk, so to speak.
With Augmention, we are basically back to the same old 'Want to look cool? Well, that'll degrade your overall performance'. And the basic book will be retconned to support that. Meh. sarcastic.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
(which, also again, is something Synner was directly whining about in regards to not having enough space for things in another thread some time ago).

Actually no. Synner was whining about no such thing. Someone else was whining about how they would have liked a few extra lines to clarify something in another entry. I responded that I didn't consider the clarification necessary to begin with, and that space was at a premium. No whining. You decided to blow that out of proportion and make it about the relative merit of space allocated to cybergenetalia. My previous response in this thread holds.

And now back to our regular programming...
Grinder
QUOTE (The Jopp)
My only gripe about Augmentation is that even though cyberlimbs have become BETTER they are far from what their description implies.

2: Cost
Very popular among the poor it says, even though the base price runs between two to four months middle lifestyles

Cars have the same price tag. In SR as well as in the real world - and yet people manage to buy one.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Grinder)

Cars have the same price tag. In SR as well as in the real world - and yet people manage to buy one.

That is true but that was not quite my point.

The problem is that when they describe a cybernetic limb as something that poor people would use as they cant afford something better, that's where the rules VS fluff falls apart.

Cloned limb
Type O: 21K / 4 Weeks
Cultured: 25K / 4 Weeks

Cyberlimb
Obvious: 15K
Synthetic: 20K
Availability: 4

The only basic difference between getting yourself a new cloned limb is TIME not money.

Slash prices for cyberlimbs in half and the prices would reflect the option of getting a "cheap mechanical limb" compared to a good ol' cloned limb.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
It could easily have been about cyberwarts or cyberingrown hairs. Both of those can be (and are) covered by the short blurb on cosmetic implants. There was no need whatsoever to devote multiple paragraphs -- and it most certainly was multiple paragraphs -- on the subject of tits and dicks. Neither of which should even come into play in most games, except by juvenile little brats looking for a cheap laugh. (Who could have gotten that exact same laugh by just saying the character had them without needing "rules" for it.)

I can just completely disagree with your comments here. It's merely a few pages and those implants are all improvements of what we have today. Not all implants are for runners and the rules should also reflect that as the books try to describe the world in shadowrun in as much detail as possible.

I find it rather amusing that people get upset about genital replacement but dont raise eyebrows about combat drugs and pure narcotics in the game (which will most likely be covered more in Arsenal).

Synthetic hair is already covered and is a nice flavor cyberware and so are the more genital implants as well. We also have Horn and fang implants that also have additional rules for them.

The only people who WOULD make juvenile jokes about it are childish players (no matter their actual age). Its all about maturity.

The point is that ALL cybernetics have their time and place and just because soemone decides that their character should have it does not mean that the player or those they play with would even raise an eyebrow if it fits the character much less make a joke about it.

I would find it more humorous if some player decided to have a troll sized genital implant due to the social ramifications (is he compensating for something) and dangers of walking around with a firehose in ones pants, stumbling over it and being an easy target for groin kicks than anyone else but that is that players problem if he is that stupid.

Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (The Jopp)
It's merely a few pages

You are talking about a book that has no Index because it has not enough pages.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
and those implants are all improvements of what we have today.

Wich makes them pretty boring: It's what people came up with, anyway.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
Not all implants are for runners

But Augmention is written for Runners.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Synner @ Sep 5 2007, 04:07 AM)
Actually no. Synner was whining about no such thing. Someone else was whining about how they would have liked a few extra lines to clarify something in another entry. I responded that I didn't consider the clarification necessary to begin with, and that space was at a premium. No whining. You decided to blow that out of proportion and make it about the relative merit of space allocated to cybergenetalia. My previous response in this thread holds.

<shrugs> Anyone who defends and advocates wasting so much space on cocks and tits (or cyberingrown toenails or any other frivilous, useless piece of drivel that could have been condensed into a single entry) in a game that has nothing at all to do with cocks and tits doesn't have much room to whine/comment about a lack of space, whether they're calling it a lack of space, say "space was at a premium," or use any other term they want to try to color it. And especially when you churn that out in response for players (not me, as a side note) who were curious as to why they didn't get what they apparently considered desireable/needed clarification on something. All, again, so you could add in your juvenile little text about dicks and boobies. Teehee. You're so edgy!

You're free to keep adding such pathetic content to the game all you want. And I'm free to keep bringing up how pathetic it is to do so, doubly so when you complain/mention/whatever about "space being a premium" in response to real content.

And for the record, I wasn't the one who brought it up in this thread, nor am I the only one who feels as such. Loudest voice != only voice.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)

QUOTE (The Jopp)
Not all implants are for runners

But Augmention is written for Runners.

I respectfully disagree as it is a book detailing augmentations in 2070, not just implants that are useful for runners.

If it was only for runner we might as well remove several "non-runner" implants.

Hydralic press
Jackhammer
nail Pistol (For cybered up carpenters running the shadows in their spare time)
Vacum pump (For the cybernetic housemaid)

Personally i would rather remove items as the Oral Slasher or Oral gun as i find them silly but the world has those items and that's why they are listed.

For some peoples game some ware will be both silly and seen as unnessecary but others might see a use for it in their games.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (The Jopp)
If it was only for runner we might as well remove several "non-runner" implants.

Augmention is only for runners.

In fact, is only available to Jackpoint Members.
fumble
Well, I found Augmentation was an amazing piece of work - kudos to all involved.

The cover is hideous, but the book itself is of a quality I haven't seen in a long time (well perhaps not so long after all... Say since SR4 biggrin.gif).

What I particularly liked is the way this book is actually a sourcebook on how the 2070 deals with cyber and bio augmentation, but also with rules in it.
I found the fluff excellent, and the "in-characterness" of it - notably by the way the book is structured (Section introduction, fluff by technical expert, rules) truly excellent.

Street Magic was good, but CGL have set themselves a new standard of excellence with Augmentation - I am waiting Arsenal with trepidation.

And yes, I actually see the inclusion of cybercocks and cubertits as a mark of maturity rather than puerility - as in most cases, these things are in the eye of the beholder anyway.

Cheers,
Fumble.
The Jopp
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (The Jopp @ Sep 5 2007, 01:33 PM)
If it was only for runner we might as well remove several "non-runner" implants.

Augmention is only for runners.

In fact, is only available to Jackpoint Members.

True, the fluff in the beginning explains that but the writers most likely meant it as a supplement to enrich the game world and not just the different kind of shady implementations.

You would probably get ten different answers if you ask ten different people what "runner" implants were and would perhaps have to cut out a long list of gear from each book released.

I stand by my opinion that the gear represents what exists in the game world and that augmentation is only for "runners" might be a misinterpretation as it is more likely for SIN'less people who cant get it any other way and thus need a catalogue in some other fashion that going to a legal clinic.
Mr. Croup
Augmentation certainly is written from the standpoint of a runner reading an article on Jackpoint but runners are also people - with everything that statement implies.

So runners may want to keep up on the latest cyber-fashion or whatever else that pops their cork. It doesn't mean that augmentation is purely for runner characters, a lot of 'ware is legal for Joe Blue to get installed and with the right permits they can also get more restricted items installed. This does not mean, therefore, that Augmentation is written specifically with runners in mind - just from their perspective, afterall that is the main focus of SR.

Dr. Funkenstein, i realise that i'm risking this turning into a full scale flame-match, but i must ask you what you deem to be real content? As at the moment i'm unsure as to exactly what your problem is with the cyber-genitalia part of the book, other than, from what i can see, that it seems to upset you a great deal because you believe it is there as some childish joke. Now i understand that there are somethings that may have been better off taking it's place but without specific examples it makes it very hard to see what you're getting at. Similarly each example you could provide would have to be weighed by each reader and they make up their own mind as to if that would have been more suitable than the handful of paragraphs on cyber-genitals.

Also, whilst you have not necessarily been the loudest voice nor the only one, you have been the one that has made his point in an increasingly angry manner for which i see no reason, other than you seem to want to convince the developers of augmentation that they are, in some way, wrong in their decision to produce Augmentation the way they did. In fact your comments have neared becoming downright libelous in that regard in your implications that the developers have given in to some juvenile behaviour in the production of Augmentation. It is understandable that people will become somewhat defensive when dealt with in such a high handed manner. The very reason i asked you to simmer down earlier.

To sum up, the writers of SR are never going to please everyone with what they produce - it's just impossible to do. If 51 people liked the book and 49 didn't, i see it as the developers having done their job. If you are one of the unhappy people that didn't like what was printed that's a shame and no fault of yours, but you do yourself no good by yelling at the top of your lungs about it and berating the developers on an online forum when they, as they should, are going to stand by their decision - it's not like they can do anything about it now the book is published. If you really feel badly about and believe others to feel the same way, i suggest you send a letter to catalyst game studios politely explaining your displeasure with the new supplement and explain why you found it so displeasing and explain to them how you feel this situation should be resolved. Otherwise no amount of foot stamping and shouting on the internet is going to do anyone any good other than to make them look a fool.
Buster
QUOTE (Synner667)
QUOTE (Buster @ Sep 5 2007, 03:07 AM)
I'm not sure why the penis and breast implants each got their own sections instead of being rolled into the cosmetic mods section, but I'm told that Americans don't understand those things.

Hmmm...

Not quite sure what you mean by Europeans "don't understand those things", when the US is much more obsessed with cosmetic surgery and the shallowness of external appearance..
..But there you go.

Huh? I said Americans.

And Americans aren't any more obsessed with their personal appearance than Europeans are. Now straighten your teeth and put some deodorant on. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Mr. Croup)
Dr. Funkenstein, i realise that i'm risking this turning into a full scale flame-match, but i must ask you what you deem to be real content?  As at the moment i'm unsure as to exactly what your problem is with the cyber-genitalia part of the book, other than, from what i can see, that it seems to upset you a great deal because you believe it is there as some childish joke.

I find it immensely humorous how everyone focuses on the tits and cocks portions of my posts and ignore the rest of it. Here, I'll try and sum it up and use some fillter text in its place.

Real content is content that enhances gameplay or adds to the world in some significant fashion. What it isn't is adding detailed information on [smurfs] and [snorks] that, not only completely lack anything of value towards the game, but could easily have been summed up with a single sentence in the small section already talking about [animation] earlier in the chapter. Doubly so when "space is at a premium" and you have to cut content that actually does add something to the game -- as Synner was complaining/explaining/regurgitating/whatever about previously.

When the editorial debate comes down to, "should we cut those paragraphs on [smurfs] and [snorks] to make room for this extended information to better explain [cyborgs], or kill the extra [jarhead] text to make room for this stuff that could just be a one-line footnote in the [animation] section? Aww fuck it, let's be 'mature' and add the [smurfs] and [snorks] because only [people from Madeupstania] would consider cutting it!", well, you've already failed on an epic scale. Especially if that is your decision and the main reason for making it (and, apparently, it was one of the leading reasons as Synner made abundantly clear when it first came up). ohplease.gif

The fact that I'm boggled by the people who are saying having [smurfs] and [snorks] is somehow "mature" and a valuable addition to a game that has nothing to do with [kid's cartoons from the 80's] is a completely different discussion.
Blade
Actually there was a reference to the Smurfs in the SSG in a shadowtalk about the possibility to change one's skin color.
Which means that the Smurfs are still popular enough to be known by Shadowrunners.

I liked this reference and I'd have been disappointed to see a comment about cyborgs instead.

On a serious note, I understand what you mean, but if you start thinking this way they could have removed a big part of the fluff (introductions, some shadowtalks), pictures, the short stories, implants that 'nobody is gonna use anyway'.
Heck, they should compute the information value of each word of the book and remove low information words and replace them with informative text.
Ol' Scratch
Fluff often adds to the setting, as the world and major players are all part of the setting (and often targets, directly or indirectly, of runs). Shadowtalk... not so much anymore. It hasn't really been interesting or useful since 2nd Edition except for the exceptionally rare occasion. I'd honestly rather see shadowtalk get snipped in place of [smurfs] and [snorks]. At least that inspires some kind of a reaction beyond a big giant <yawn>.

But detailed information on [smurfs] and [snorks] in lieu of information that does pertain to the actual game? And actively choosing it instead of said content? That's just ludicrous. Doubly so when the reason for doing so is even more insane.

That said, I feel the same way about spending so much space and time on mildly different "fluff" implants, like the aforementioned Jackhammer. But at least with those, there are solid rules associated with them and they can be actively useful to a runner (such as drilling a hole through a wall or breaking into a sewage plant; see it all the time in crime flicks, or even a former construction worker turned runner). [Smurfs] and [snorks]? Added to just to be added, and doing so without even putting anything interesting or even remotely useful about them in (other than taking up Capacity for some bizarro reason). I mean, even if the character was a former [animator], what do those rules add to the character? Nada.

But, hey, at least the people responsible can hold their chests out proudly and proclaim that they're not sutffy [people from Madeupstania] and stand by their decision. That's apparently the only real reason so much space was wasted on it.
Moon-Hawk
I'm gonna get a cybersmurf! Tee-hee!

I'm sorry. That was juvenile.

It seems like it's just a question of: When does too much fluff become useless crap? And that's all it is, just because they give it an essence value and a price, it's still obviously fluff, vaguely disguised as crunch. Too much fluff (and what is too much depends very much on how the topic of said fluff relates to the game) is obviously bad, but not enough fluff leaves a game with no setting. The writers/developers are constantly trying to walk this line, both within each book and for the total of all the books. Some people will naturally want more or less crunch/fluff. Overall, I think they're doing a good job.
The topic of cybersmurfs could've definitely been handled in a juvenile way in Augmentation, but I don't think that it was. (except by me, at the beginning of this post)
Overall, Augmentation looks like a great book. It fixed half of my biggest gripes with SR4 (still waiting for Unwired for the rest) And frankly, I don't care how ugly the covers are as long as the content maintains this level of quality. wink.gif
Dashifen
I'm surprised you all don't like the cover. I sort of do. I didn't like it on-screen, but on the hardcover prints at GenCon there was a lot more color depth (perhaps because of the glossy cover) than there was on-screen or on my PDF printout. Oh well.
Moon-Hawk
Meh, I'm still making up my mind about the cover. My point was, whether the cover is fantastic or crap, it's pretty low on my list of priorities for a gaming book.
Zhan Shi
Was it the best cover I've seen? No. But it was not the worst, either. That fine distinction would go to System Failure.
Dashifen
Wacky. I loved the SF cover. You and I, Zhan Shi, definitely seem to have different eyes in our beholders wink.gif
Zhan Shi
Yeah, different strokes, etc. But Moon-Hawk is correct; the cover is low priority compared with what is inside. I would very much prefer a craptastic cover with great text than vice versa.
knasser
Oh wow! Funkenstein is off again on his cyber-penises! For anyone who missed it, the last discussion on this was here.

Now I'm going to address this comment directly at Funkenstein and specifically exclude Rotbart who seems to be sincere in his dislike of non-game applicable rules. Funkenstein - you keep complaining that it was wasted space because it could have been devoted to something with an actual game application. I don't think anyone here believes that is your issue with the cyber-genitalia. The equal amount of space devoted to each of fibreoptic hair, nano-tattoos, silky skin, chloroplast skin, horn implants, and others has never set you off on a multi-page rant. Shaped dermal implants alone take up more space than that given to breast implants and they have zero game effect. Nor have you complained that all these other non-game applicable elements will lead to "gay jokes and fart gags" or are "pathetic" or "juvenille" or any of the other things you have said in reference to the sexually themed material.

If you want to say that you, for whatever personal reasons, don't like this material in your game, then I think everyone here will shrug and say "don't include it, and happy gaming." But to use a fake argument about wasted space as a proxy way to deny the material to others because of your own personal beliefs is dishonest. Shadowrun would not be Shadowrun if it did not have a rich and fleshed out setting. And sex is a pretty big feature of any human culture or social or personal life. For most of us, the inclusion of this is not a big issue, but there's certainly no call to have a go at the developers or to look down on people who do use this in their game or even just enjoy the fluffing.

What's particularly offensive in your attitude is the repeated strawmen you set up. You'll note that everyone has just been discussing the cyber-genitalia in neutral terms. It's you that has kept going on about "tits" and "cocks" in the mock voice of your perceived opponent. It's you who says that the inclusion of this material will "open the door to rules for taking a shit." That doesn't seem a real risk to any of us. And it's you who told me "Fancy yourself some kind of modern, sophisticated individual all you want." Well, yes, quite frankly, I do consider myself fairly modern and sophisticated. What I resent is the implication ("Fancy yourself") that it's some sort of mask so I can privately go "tee-hee - they printed the word penis" because you don't believe that anyone else's non-issue with the things can be genuine.

Don't like it, don't include it. But don't make up arguments as to why it shouldn't be in the book where other people can use it.

Dicks. Some are big, some are small, some are circumcised and some of them post on online forums. They're a fact of life and thus perfectly reasonably included in any book on life in 2070 at the cost of 12 lines on a half page. Now quit complaining.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (Knasser)
The original SR London sourcebook put it well, I think, when it said that the difference between European and American sex was primarily oral... americans talked more about it - before, during and after. biggrin.gif Europeans tend to just get on with it.

...definitely my favourite quote from the book as well.

As to Augmented

Actually finally got the PDF (I can bypass the front cover). Yeah, makes me feel like a BTL junkie at a "Chips-Я-Us".

Yes several of my faves are back like Chemical Gland, Clean Metabolism, and of course Cyberzombies (wooo hoo!) along with some cool new toys like Radar Sense, Jackhammer & welding laser attachments for modular cyberarms (now cyberlimbs have become interesting).

Once Arsenal comes out, I might actually be able to work up a real campaign
eidolon
Knock off the personal attacks, and baiting. Thanks.
Zhan Shi
Whoa. I hope this dosn't go the way of "Moleskin".
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (knasser)
Oh wow! Funkenstein is off again on his cyber-penises!

Thanks for proving my point for me.

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
I find it immensely humorous how everyone focuses on the tits and cocks portions of my posts and ignore the rest of it.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012