it was around in earlier editions too.

Apparently Zhan is the reason we can't have anything nice Just when I was starting to like ya' too.

ANd I had money on Fortune being the root of all evil. Damn.

Damn! Foiled again!

No I was not even near that.

This name comes from a pc I had in a earlier version of SR, but since the rules have changed since then, I have found it impossible to recreate that pc.

WMS

Thanks. It was kind of adhoc since I couldn't find my original notes for it, but glad you liked it. You should try Earthdawn some time. For me at least, it gives me a better appreciation for SR. Besides that, it gives me a break from SR in a still connected way. Can't have cake all the time.

More on topic, I'll say again that I loved the fitciton parts for Cybermancy, and cyborgs. Great stuff there. The sections on bioware, and nano were interesting, but they seemed more like a shopping list than the catalogs of old that I loved. I loved the gear, but I didn't get as much out of the fluff parts. But those last two sections really stood out to me.

And it definitely beats Darksun!

Absolutely not. Hatchetman was a second generation cyberzombie, which means that by 2070 he'd be dead from cancer and cascading apoptosis even if the bullet with his name on never got fired. I always imagined him going out in a hail of fury, grinning like a mad man when he pulled the pin on his grenade belt in the heart of the secret base's fuel depot or something. I don't want to think that he died on an operating table with the research doctors crowding around to examine his corpse. But his last mission was also a secret mission. And he was damn good, so it's not like anyone else was going to be walking away fom it to tell the tale.

Once Hatchetman finally bit off more than he could chew, none of the remaining characters would have any meaningful information about what that mission was or even that a mission occurred. Just one day Fastjack noticed that Hatchetman hadn't written in a while. And then he hoped that it just meant the period between Hatchetman's e-mails had gotten longer. But when he waited more a communique never came. And now Fastjack has mostly moved on with his life - grabbing a bottle of the same chincy red tequilla Hatchetman used to drink when he was small time once a year to commemorate an occassion.

Sure, it's possible that Hatchetman miraculously was the first guy to get the new experimental treatments and survived to the present day. But that would cheapen the sacrifice that he actually did make. Hatchetman took the plunge when cybermancy was a death sentence. Not a long odds situation where only the awesome hero ould pull through - but a genuine death sentence. Having him live would undermine his life.

-Frank

You two remind me of an old couple, from time to time at least.

Hah, that's almost how I pictured him going out. The fluff about Hatchetman is the reason why Cybertechnology still is my favorite sourcebook even today. Given Zhan Shi's Question, I guess when a paper copy of Augmentation finally manages to float across the ocean into a gaming store near me, I can expect a fluff reference and/or inside jokes about him? It's what I thoroughly missed in M&M's Cybermancy part.

Well, they drop dead as soon as they enter even a Rating 1 Shallow.

Your missing the point of the new cybermancy rules set. As qualified by Frank

Cybermancy is no longer the death sentence it was. In the old days a cyberzombie had a life span in months, no sane player would touch them. Now with a bit of care and some luck, a cyberzombie has a lifespan in years, they're no longer meant to be a GM only toy.

As I've explained before, no they don't. Reread the Background Count section of Street Magic.

Magical background count (positive or negative) reduces your effective Magic rating for the purpose of dice pool calculation when using magic. Your Magic Rating is never diminished, in fact it doesn't change at all.

And as I've also explained - and as will be clarified in upcoming FAQs - when background counts/domains overlap or interact the higher rating (and its aspect) is dominant. A cyberzombie is always at the heart of a permanent background count that buffers him from pretty much any low level ambient domains/background count.

Nah, we don't quarrel because of years of resentment. We quarrel for the sake of quarreling alone.

Actually, that is wrong.

Not 'effective' - it just drops. CZ drops dead per RAW.

That's not FAQ material - that's Errata material for SM.

Can you give a reference for that?

If the ambient mana conditions are a Mana Ebb, the Cyberzombie is still in a Rating 4 Domain, and her Magic is still restricted from rising. So her Magic is still 1 no matter what the ambient mana conditions are and she'll never die from it.

Ghouls are by RAW killed dead as door nails by a Rating 1 Mana Ebb. Although if I have my way they will only be killed by a Rating 7+ Mana Void or Mana Warp.

-Frank

This means that the background count modified Magic attribute counts for active magic use and the reduction/suppression only impairs or renders a character unable to use his magical abilities (if reduced to 0).

And where does it say that a suppressed Magic of 0 means the cyberzombie dies? Or for that matter any dual natured or magically active creature?

Street Magic does not address overlapping background counts at all - so there is nothing to errata. In response to the Frequently Asked Question of how background counts/domains/BC generating spells interact, the official response is that when two background counts/domains coincide or overlap the higher rating one (and its aspecting) prevails.

By wording, it can in fact reduce the Magic attribute to 0 - so the Rule from Augmention would apply.
Of course, it doesn't, since Augmention specifies that the Astral Hazing always wins.

..uh, missing rules are actually worth an Errata.

Even if we were to ignore the effects of having Magic reduced to 0 or less detailed in the quote I provided, could you please point out where it says that (anyone or anything) having their Magic reduced to 0 does anything more than neutralize its ability to use its magical powers and makes Drain harder - let alone results in death?

You mean like the MageZappers in Arsenal that burn out Mages in an instant?

Honestly, if reduced to permanent changes, the rule makes no sense at all anymore. The Magic is all that holds the CZ together, and if it even get the slightest cracks... he falls apart.

Interesting. Your solution to power creep is my definition of power creep.

Actually, off the top of my head, I can think of at least one other way, possibly two, to reduce Magic permanently under the current rules - besides the perfectly valid Addiction rules. There will likely be more in upcoming books (Running Wild for one).

Regardless, background counts were never intended to permanently reduce anyone's Magic, they were intended to make it ambient mana harder to channel and inhibits your active manipulation/use of ambient mana (which is only critical if you are an astral creature which depends on that ambient magic to even subsist).

In the same manner that the forensic magician doesn't lose that 1 point of Magic rating, he just can't use it, neither does the cyberzombie.

Now, if you'd like to continue this in another thread, feel free to start one, but I think this thread has drifted enough.

I redirect you to the second paragraph of my post above (the bit about astral creatures depending on mana to survive). If astral creatures/spirits are temporarily reduced in power below their Force they are disrupted.

While we have not explicitly stated anything to that effect regarding dual-natured beings in SR4 (we're saving that for Running Wild), it isn't a stretch to conclude that something similar occurs given the descriptions regarding the experiences of magicians in Voids and Mana Warps.

You will note that at no point have I said that a cyberzombie is in any way immune to any of those effects, since in fact they have no direct relation to the reduction in the Magic attribute. All are distinct secondary effects of being in areas of very high or very low background count and cyberzombies are indeed vulnerable to those other effects of being in a Void or Mana Warp.

Well, for one, neither spirits nor any dual natured creature generates its own aspected domain and affects astral space in this manner. But ignoring that significant factor, cyberzombies are indeed thematically similar to dual natured entities.

What I have repeatedly tried to point out is that at no point have we mentioned that dual natured critters or other entities die when their Magic is (temporarily) reduced to zero by background count (whereas we do say that spirits -as astral entities, Materialized or not - who have their Force reduced to 0 are disrupted). What the rules say is that they become unable to tap their innate magical abilities.

If it wasn't clear before, I'll make it clear now: I do not intend to derail this thread even further than it already has. If you want to continue this discussion take it up elsewhere and I'll be happy to oblige.

Please illustrate those in another thread, then.

Dual Natured Creatures have always died when their Magic Rating hits zero. While the dual natured critter rules are completely missing from SR4, the rules are certainly written as if this was still the case. Recall that even MADS reminds us that dual natured critters die when the disease progresses far enough that it eliminates the Magic Attribute.

A non-magical basilisk is a dead basilisk. Always has been. In every edition, all the way back to 1st edition.

--

There is a separate problem in 4th edition, where none of the rules that affect dual critters actually made it in to the book. We don't get the rule where they can simultaneously view on the astral and physical, we don't get the rule where they can see without a -2 perception penalty from astral distraction, we don't get the rule where they can attack astral foes with normal unarmed combat, we don't get anything. So the fact that the rule that dual natured critters die when they become mundane isn't in the basic book either hardly means anything.

-Frank

Dual natured creatures can interact with both planes equally effective...

Now you do have the quote:

However to me I don't consider this damning since:

1) I played SR3 and would house rule anyways
2) The first quote (to me anyways) does imply 'at the same time' to interact with both...
3) Either Dual-natured creatures don't take the penlaty or they have the penalty for ALL physical actions since they are always 'dual-natured' (never is there a power described to turn it off)
4) "Dual-natured creatures have the ability to perceive and interact with the astral plane in the same way as characters using astral perception", never does it say they interact with the 'physical plane' the same way a character using astral perception does..


perhaps it is from sr3 days... but even the only played sr4 people I have in my group agree that as listed...

Dual-Natured creatures can percieve (like a character using astral perception) astral space... but they are not 'using astral perception')

Now 'normal' combat versus pure astral is a littel greyer but the first quote does say the can interract with both equally... not (they use astral combat rules, to attack somebody in astral)... Now this is under 'powers' so it might not include all things.. but their 'natural weapon' attack (if any) is a power... so their natural weapon attack WOULD equally effect a astral creature or a physical creature... thus use the normal rules for natural weapon

So for a dual-natured critter using 'natural weapon'...

it makes an unarmed combat skill test to attack (equally on astral or physical planes)...

Considering the 'power' says critters with out natural weapon may still make an unarmed attack as regular characters with DV str/2.... this (effectively) becomes a power.... so again dual-natured creatures (without natural weapon) ... may make an unarmed attack with a dv of str/2 against the astral or physical planes equally effective.

So actually the old rules ARE still here.

(edit fixed quote blocks)

MADs reflects the intent in SR4 regarding Magic (and Essence) depletion in paranormal critters. When stripped of a Magic Attribute, a paranormal critter will then gradually sicken and die. It does not happen immediately and it does not kill instantly. Deprived of its magic a dual natured critter will be driven insane/wither away and eventually die (at least several days, maybe even weeks). If the magic is only temporarily suppressed or somehow recovered (such as moving away from a high background count domain) the animal begins recovering too and will not die.

For the record Rotbart, MADS was the "one way" off the top of my head I mentioned previously. The other (FABIII) I'll actually have to dig up when I have the time and see if I'm right (but I'm pretty certain I am). Note that yet another way I am aware of was cut from Street Magic and left for Running Wild (though this was an update of an SR3 element it doesn't count because it was unpublished).

Can we now get back to the purpose of this thread?