Heh. You and I both play that way of course, but Natural Weapon is a Physical Power, technically you aren't supposed to be able to attack astral opponents with it.

Dual Nature is supposed to allow you to use your natural weapons against aastral foes, but it doesn't actually say that it can do that. Which is, obviously, a flaw in the written rules for Dual Nature. Basically it needs about one or two extra paragraphs describing Dual Natured critters and how they interact with physical and astral stuff. That's just plain missing from the current rules.

-Frank

Already been stated, but please bring this back to focusing on the review of Augmentation. Not shooting down the discussion as I'm certainly interested in it as well. Move it to another thread.

In order to take this in a more Augmentation-themed direction:

<sniffle><sob> Goodbye, Hatchetman.

In regards to my comment about power creep....the GM can simply rule that CZs are not available as player characters. I believe, however, that it may be doable, provided the disadvantages are rigidly enforced, and the CZ PC is given foes to match his abilities. Some players and gms don't like the high powered, world shaking campaigns (think Harlequin's Back), prefering to keep things more street level. Both styles have their merits and drawbacks. To each his own.

Just looking over the section on Age Rejuvenation....I was thinking of using the Body (natural, not modified) attribute for the maximum times it can be used. Also, in previous editions, I seem to recall that cyber/bioware interfered with the effectiveness of gene treatments; is this still true?

Doesn't the monthly surgeries and need for expert medical and psychological help on demand pretty much rule out CZs for players unless the GM gives them lots of money with any special ban hammer application?

Can't really argue with that. I thoroughly enjoyed both Threats books. And in Cybermancy, those two anonymous posters seemed to think that cybermantic magic was creating a pressure cooker of bad karma, which would have extremely delitirious effects if it "overflowed". Sounds like a good "Threats 3" section to me.

I meant to type "Cybertechnology".

It would be an extremely difficult existence, to say the least. But thems the breaks for people who want cyberzombies as pcs.

If you put a cyberzombie on something like a space station, would any accompanying mage then be able to use their magic (while in his radius) as if in a -4 BC instead of the normal -10 to -12?

It does say that the Rating 4 background count takes effect regardless of what the ambient mana levels are. So yes, for the same reason that a cyberzombie doesn't die when he enters a bad mana region, a mage can stand next to a cyberzombie and use his magic in a merely crippled capacity on top of a gravity well.

Of course, that background count is like three meters across the long way and has a scary scary man standing in the middle of it, so it's difficult to imagine successfully using most magical operations in such a scenario. You can't conjure for instance, and the "Line of Sight" capabilities of your spells are virtually meaningless.

I could imagine pulling off some Health spell scenarios though, because they are touch range. You have the cyberzombie lie supine on top of the patient and then you have the magician lay down on top of that and reach around to cast a spell without having any part of their body or the spell extend into the vacuum which surrounds the CZ's tiny bubble.

Awkward? Difficult? Kind of weaksauce?

Yes, it is all of these things. But people other than Aztechnology and Ares can't do it at all and every time you're playing with different physics than your opponents that's something to base a competitive advantage off of. So you can be damn sure that at this very moment there is a research group on the Tlaloque Spindle trying to figure out something to do with seriously attenuated - but possible - magic in space to justify the hundreds of millions of nuyen it took to get them there.

-Frank

Thanks Frank. Lots of run potential there.

And the Chemical Production Facility, that's another 200 grand down the tubes. You'll want a Medical Facility as well. Also a Cloning Facility if the cancer starts cropping up. Those all cost about the same.

Sure, you can do it. But by the time you've done it, you've become a corporation. It would be much cheaper to simply purchase these materials and services from Universal Omnitech. Cheaper in at least.

-Frank

All the details for maintaining a CZ are now written up in the rules.

You must add 2000Ұ a month for medical expenses, own or have access to a chemical facility and not turn your IMS off.

Yeah Frank, don't you know the new cyberzombie rules? Oh wait...

To maintain a cyberzombie, do you need 2000 nuyen per month AND a chemical facility or just a chemical facility?

Having a cyberzombie on a runner team has more to do with the costs involved for being a cyberzombie than anything else. I mean, who the hell would invest in the millions upon millions of nuyen it takes to turn someone into a cyberzombie if they only have a max of 250,000 nuyen of implants in 'em at the start of the game?

If you're playing in a campaign where money is no issue, either during character creation or after, then sure it's a reasonable request to make of the GM. But under normal circumstances you aren't going to have a cyberzombie on a team because it's just not feasible from a storytelling or believability point of view.

Mu-hahahahaaaa! Just picked the book up today!

Waits for the Admin Hammer to fall on Buster for that last attempt at humor.

"Let Sleeping Dogs Lie please."

I thought it was funny.

For what it's worth, I chuckled a bit, too.

I *just* got the book today, & I've been really busy at work. I'm going to savor this by reading it through.

Real Aussies don't drink Fosters!

Interesting. If one of the prerequisites for the Cybermancy metamagic technique is Corruption, does that not mean that the ritual team leader, at least, must be a Toxic? This puts that conversation in Cybertechnology in a whole new light, both in terms of the participants, and in whomever posted it to Shadowland.

That's not a take I like on the HeavenHerds. I don't think of them as any sort of nice folks certainly. They should be the types to use blood magic for their ends as the Therans did, although not as an end in and onf it's self as the Azzie's do. But I don't think they should be toxics. Hadn't really thought about that before.

Yeah, I really liked the cybermancy fluff, and especially the take that there are different ways to achieve the result. Forcing Corruption into the mix kinda screws the fluff. Though I guess even to the Heaven Herds, the magic was revolting and only used if absolutely necessary.

Those having a problem with the Heaven Herds using Corruption, I would remind that if their technique is as old as its supposed to be they need not obey the paradigm views of contemporary magic use (in the same manner that the use of Blood Magic by IEs does not make all of them Twisted - though a pretty good case could be made in for some individuals) - though it would explain why even the Herds believe it to be an extreme scenarios only solution.

I don't have a problem at all with them using Corruption. I have a problem with them having to use Corruption, if that is indeed the case. But that's just me.

I remember now. From FASA's Theran Empire book. There was talk of the Heavenherds creating magical super-soldiers through the extensive use of blood charms. Normaly, an ED character could have only so many of these before suffering "depatternization", which I'm guessing is the ED equivalent of zero essence. But the Heavenherds found a way around this limitation, creating what what was, in effect, an SR cyberzombie.

Firstly, I have to say that my overall impression of the book is definitely a positive one. I didn't find any hideously broken part and I consider the addition of several options with no game breaking parts a plus to the game.
Then, more specifically...

... I really liked many of the new qualities that come up in the book. Not only cyberpsychosis -which I wanted for a character I had in mind- but many of the others in the CZ section too. I have opened that option for starting characters as well, as I find phobias, for instance, much more interesting and playable than allergies and easier to come by.

I don't remember now, but the 5-point negative quality "mysteriously noisy cyberware" or so is really cool.

More comments later on, stay tuned.

Cheers,

Max

Ps: I do believe the attention co processor a little too cheap, as I think of muscle toner and augmentation, but I won't even houserule it differently. The expensive life of a shadowrunner has it breaks.

You are correct. I was comparing to the mana void writeup and overlooked those lines under Mana Warps. I apologize to Dr. Funk with regards to the missing those lines describing the phenomenon as relates to Warps.

However, what I was referring to was the fact that in previous editions mere contact with Voids / fovae (in particular) resulted in psychological torment and mental distress (among other effects) that were in addition and separate from any physical or psychic damage wrought by the actual contact with the Void (see the old adventure Eyewitness and Aztlan). So far in SR4, torment and pain has been directly described as a result of astral contact with "roiling mana that flays their soul and drives them mad" in mana warps.

Note though that this effect is unrelated to the "reduction in magic" that we've been talking about here, and which was the point I was making: ie. reducing the Magic att does not kill, harm, or by itself cause "torment and pain."

The discussion may have since drifted, but I have been responding to the proposition (by Frank and others) that reducing a Magic Att will (by itself) kill the dual natured entity (cyberzombies included) in SR4. I apologize if that was unclear.

For the record I have stated multiple times that cyberzombies should not be immune to the other effects of Voids and Warps (put a cyberzombie in space and he most certainly will go pop on the astral)- it is the effects of low end background counts that they should be immune to.

As the rules are now, he always is in his personal, aspected domain and thus never subject to environmental mana conditions.

That is correct. For now. I have also stated my opinion on how that should be handled when we address interactions between background counts of different magnitudes - something that is in the developer's hands for upcoming errata/FAQ.