...getting the distinct feeling that the Moderator Maglock is closing in...

...I for one would really like to continue discussing Augmented in general.

Well....as I said at the beginning, the cybermancy portion was what really intrigued me. I liked seeing a more in depth approach to how it is done, what magics are involved, etc. Although like many SR explanations, they raise as many questions as they answer. Something of a letdown: being a fan of the original Cybertechnology book, I was hoping for an update on Hatchetman, but I was pleased that he was mentioned.

Right. I'm getting told off by PM now for making personal attacks. I have warned the moderators before that I have a low tolerance for having my freedom of expression restricted. Anyone who knew my background would understand just how angry censorship makes me. And I think those who have been here a long time are familiar with my posts enough to know that I'm one of the politer people around here.

I think... I have had enough. It has been interesting here, but I'll wish you all the best (even Dr. Funkenstein) and say my farewells. Happy gaming all.

-Khadim Nasser.

<ahem>

uh....bon voyage, I guess.

Now...can we please quit focusing on small parts of cyberanatomy and get back to the goddamn book?

Both sides in that argument sound stupid at this point.

On that note: Now that we've mentioned cosmetic surgery and cosmetic cyber...

What about their medical cousins? What are medications like in 2070? What kinda vaccines do kids get? How beatable is AIDS, or cancer, or diabetes?

We've never once heard those really mentioned.

Nor have I. Me, I just assume that meds are still primarily in capsule form. As for those diseases, since I can't recall them being cured in SR canon, I would think they're still around, albeit easier to diagnose and treat.

You know, I'm going to break with tradition and agree with the good Dr. It's not so much that there's cyber-naughty-bits in Augmentation, it's not so much that they've got tons of space wasted on them that could have been used elsewhere. My view is that the sexual bits have been handled badly, with all the tact and taste of Beavis and Butthead.

As for the rest of the book, all I've got to say is this: Once again, they've escalated things, so the game will rapidly be unplayable unless you've got the new books to keep up.

What do you mean by escalated things, Cain? If someone doesn't have Augmentation, why would they have a problem playing the game?

Well, I agree that the rules / gear bloat is rapidly becoming the same as it ever was, but I've been saying that since people started trying to say that SR4 was going to be more "streamlined" ...because at the time there was only one book for it.

I don't know that I agree with unplayable, though. I haven't read Aug in depth yet, do you have any specific examples or just a better explanation of what you mean? Are you talking about sheer power level, or just the abundance of "stuff"?

You know, when it was first released I looked at Augmentation with a very critical eye, almost positive that the "power bloat" was going to be there. You know, where stuff in Augmentation were absolutely required in order to be competitive.

I was pleasantly surprised by how that wasn't the case. It seems like it at times, and there's things in there that are odd and which can easily be twisted, but overall they only expand your arsenal, they don't replace it. Augmentation literally gives most characters new stuff to play with, as opposed to rendering everything in the main book moot (with the exception of cyberlimbs which totally needed to be updated).

Sure, there are some really choice items in there (Radar Sense, Attention Coprocessors, Nanohives, etc.) but, as I said, those are mostly just new gimmicks or universal improvements rather than "omfg, my Street Sam is useless without a Radar Sense!"

So, yeah, I disagree about the power bloat. Rules bloat is unavoidable in rules-heavy books (it's the entire point of them, in fact). Overall, Augmentation is one of the best releases the game's had in a long time.

Sorry, Im' just amused at the irony of this.

paraphrase:
Cain
"Weird I agree with Doc"

Doc
"I disagree with Cain".



Sorry you guys just make me laugh.

I personally don't think it's really much a of a bloat,although I do most certainloyl see Cain's point. I've only read over Augmentatino, not read it in deep depth. Skipped the nonotech section for the most part. But I've got games with people that have that stuff so it becomes required reading for me. However this isn't D&D where they're going to be puting out 2 Class augmetations books for each class as well as numerous books that add more spells, gear, etc. There's one for each type of character focus, and that's it. So it might be husky, but it's not bloat. My opinion.

Don't have the book right on hand, but aren't they compatible? That, plus the Intuition-linked skill-boosting nanoware, means the Perception whore is now a reality.

I think augmentation is a solid book. I haven't had the time to read all of the fluff yet, but the gear is great, with some caveats.

I don't care much for the genitalia part, mostly because it will see no use in any of my games and I assume the games of many other players. I don't see myself as the type to have players going through sexual fantasies or exploring the sexual depravity of the cyberpunk genre. That doesn't mean a whore would never be in any game I play or GM in, or that there will never be women that have been raped or involved in a bunraku sex parlor. It just means there won't be any sexual experience involved with the players or GM actively involved, in character or out of character for that matter, during the gaming session. Roleplaying is not a sexual outlet for anyone at my gaming table. Therefore, the inclusion of sexual augmentations is wholly unnecessary and useless for my group. The inclusion of said material seems to be appealing only to a niche market.

Another thing I didn't like was the symbionts are not as effective as I would like them to be. Orthoskin or Bone Density is always going to be the better choice due to the drawback of all symbionts. They cost nearly the same but you get more benefit from not going with the carapace symbiont. What the heck is up with the stalwart endosont. A +1 dice pool modifier, but look at the drawback. Not only do you get the critical miss drawback you get another one with a threshold of 3, that will likely get you killed. I mean, it's like there was some conspiracy of the developers to make symbionts completely not worth the opportunity costs and risks. Which is sad, because Stargate is so awesome. Sorry, just had to say that. I tried not to but it came out.

Everything else so far has been great. I especially like the severe wounds optional rules. Whoever wrote those deserves a pat on the back.

I can't say, for all their newness, that I ever see much of anybody wanting a worm...slug....thing sliding around their insides that potentially has a mind of its own.

One body, ONE mind, thank you very much!

I agree with Draconis. The more splats, the merrier. For myself, I'm very much anticipating Runner's Companion and Mr. Johnson's Companion, moreso than Unwired or Arsenal. Though, of course, I will eagerly buy those when they become available.

There forums are, at best, a reflection of the truly dedicated SR fans. Of everyone I know in real life, I'm the only one who loves Shadowrun enough to post here. Given that there's a 50/50 split among diehard fans, that doesn't bode well for its value among the casual fan, let alone the target market.

My reaction ranged from utter, abject apathy to mild enthusiasm for the more "peurile" stuff put into the SR4 books since release. I'm happy when given options that already work within the confines of the core rules and don't require a single person across the globe to change their playstyle for the worse. Will this stuff ever come up in my groups? Probably not, but then, I can honestly say the same thing about endosonts, exploding biokittens, drop bears, Nitro and Dunkelzahn. I'd have to double check my pdf to make sure, but I think the ginormous section describing how Gecko Hands worked took up more space than the Penile & Breast implants combined. I can honestly say I have never suspected for even a second that this stuff could be truly shunting aside "more important" SR4 developments.

...blast, and here I was hoping they'd have machine gun juggies.

....but seriously, I have no issue with the "fluff ware" and I find some of it (like Clean Metabolism, Touch Sensitivity, and Body Sculpting) to actually be rather helpful at times. Other enhancements like Fibre Optic hair and Nano Tatoos are purely colour, but hey it's a game so why not have a little fun?

For those of you who might wish to explore the possibilities of, ah, personal enhancement, I would suggest "Freak Legion: A Player's Guide To Fomori" and "Clanbook: Tzimsce", both by White Wolf. Sick stuff, and much to blame for why I left that game.

I'm pleasantly surprised by how well the Cybermancy was received. I genuinely thought my write-up was going to be a huge up hill battle with people chanting "Burn the Munchkin!" and such.

The outcry against cyberpenises also surprised me. Though in retrospect I guess it should not have. Still, I think it was handled with much more class than the "Mr. Stud Implant" ever was.

-Frank

Here's a thought....a smurf containing doses of nanotech cutters. Ouch!

But seriously, it's not a big issue for me. I just don't think it was neccessary. I was happily playing SR for 10 years without giving it a second thought.

Hey, Frank, since you're here....can I expect Hatchetman to show up in the future?

Re-reading Augmentation....just wanted to say I also liked the new stuff on DNA masking. Much better than the rules in SOTA.

off the top of my head, i can think of at least 2 character concepts that i've seen on these boards that revolve around a the character being one gender, but appearing to be a different gender. that's one use.

with the breasts, they have size alteration, for example. useful for disguse purposes, i would think, to be able to go from flat-chested to normal sized to absurdly large at a moment's notice... throw in something as simple as a reversible coat and a hat that can be stuffed into a pocket and you could vanish into a crowd in an instant. would you have known the implant could do that if they didn't say it did?

also, if you can't see the advantage to being able to turn off the pain receptors in certain highly sensitive areas of your body when, for example, you've just been kicked there really hard (by someone wearing steel-toe boots!), then clearly no one has ever hit you in a sensitive enough area of your body =P

in another example, going to one of the games that's being recounted on these boards, one of the characters is probably feeling somewhat emasculated right about now... in character, i think it would be reasonable for him to want to get a replacement, so that he doesn't seem like such a freak in a certain kind of social encounter.

so yes, i can absolutely see uses for them. does it need bonuses or penalties to certain kinds of actions in the text? nope. does it have them? nope. but because it does have them [edit] (meaning the implants) [/edit], the players of those characters have options they may not have otherwise considered. i don't see that as a bad thing at all.

and certainly, i don't see the inclusion of two paragraphs of text as being worth derailing a thread this horribly. honestly, you took a thread about "hey, what is augmentation like", and turned it into a completely pointless waste of time. you've focused the entire thread on two little paragraphs of text, which i don't believe anywhere near 50% of the people even really care about one way or another anyways (so as far as i'm concerned, your 5/45/50 is pulled out of your own nether orifice at least as much as the original 50/50 split proposed).

you know what? chances are, i am never going to use that crazy cyber cat thing. in fact, i will probably not use bio drones at all in my games. there's a lot more text about them then there is about those two implants, or even the entire cosmetic modifications sections combined plus those two implants. you have 2 paragraphs that you see as wasted, well that's several pages i see as wasted (on me, at least). but when someone says "hey, what do you think about augmentation", i don't ignore the 99% of the book that i think is awesome to go on a rant about how i don't like those pages. and i'd appreciate it if you would just state your opinion, and then leave it at that. it doesn't take much. just say "i don't like this and this" and then when someone else says "well i think it's fine" *ignore them*. you don't have to rant about it. you don't have to derail the thread. you don't have to go on and on about it (and contrary to what you are saying, you *are* going on and on about it), and i would honestly say right now that if we had a poll of people who are for, against, or just want to stop hearing about the matter, i would be very surprised if there are not far more people who just don't want to hear about it then anything else.

so really, i appreciate that you have your opinion. i have my own opinion about it (and in all honesty, i'm not likely to use it either, and really don't much care. it's only 2 paragraphs). but i don't want to read your opinion over and over and over and over and over (see how boring repetition gets? this is a forum for discussion, not a brainwashing program, thank you), i'm perfectly fine just hearing your opinion *once*.

Ok I like Augmentation, does it have "perceived" flaws, to me not really. I have found the "whole" flavor of Augmentation to be excellant.

Each chapter was laid out, in an entirely readable format.

In my 20+ years of playing SR, I have had only one player character use a cyberarm, I have never created any character with a cyberlimb.

Does that mean my players are any different than any one else's, no. They made choices that they wanted to make, yes they were aware of cyberlimbs, but most of the time it did not fit the "concept" that those players had for their characters.

Will I berate the developers/writers/editors for "wasting" page space on something that I have not used, or will more than likely not use, No.

I understand that the game concepts vary from each GM and player group. So the inclusion of the cyberlimbs gives the entirety of SR gamers to make better choices of character concept using the widest range of choices.

The developers/writers/editors were able to "craft" the Augmentation book by using many different writers and was able to reach a consensus on what the final product would or would not contain, based upon constraints, some of which I know about but most I do not.

I could rant about the "wasted" space of the index and table of contents, yes but no I will not.

Merely because you see no use in an item(s) does not mean they should not be there. The the developers/writers/editors were "crafting" the Augmentation book for a wider range of GM's and players, so they could find the tools/items needed to create their concepts in characters both player character and non player character.

Excellent Job on Augmentation, I hope the next publication is as good, and hopefully better.

WMS

I believe the pros and cons about cyber genitalia has been gone over way past it's usefulness. Let's move on please. There's already a thread specifically about this subject, so if you really want to continue going on that topic, feel free to dig it back up. Otherwise, please move on to other topics in the book.

hehehe.... wait... when did you start restraining your self?

Dammit, Fortune! You're the reason we can't have anything nice!

Oh, my. I seem to have a "Inspiring Lively Discussion" negative quality. First Moleskin, now this. But I have enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the subject(s) at hand.

Another "Hurrah" to the Augmentation writers: the inclusion of cyberpsychosis. It dosn't matter whether it was taken as a nod to Cyberpunk; it really fits, and I'm glad it was included. I was thinking of adapting this rule as a start down the path of the Twisted. After all, having wierd powers can alienate one from the rest of metahumanity as surely as cyber could. That whole "I'm above you puny mortals" thing.

Are you by any chance the inspiration for Man-of-Many-Skins?