 Augmentation Review, What are your thoughts? |
  |
 Sep 5 2007, 08:41 PM
Post
#51
|
|
|
Bushido Cowgirl  Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490  |
...getting the distinct feeling that the Moderator Maglock is closing in...
...I for one would really like to continue discussing Augmented in general. |
 |
 
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:01 PM
Post
#52
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Well....as I said at the beginning, the cybermancy portion was what really intrigued me. I liked seeing a more in depth approach to how it is done, what magics are involved, etc. Although like many SR explanations, they raise as many questions as they answer. Something of a letdown: being a fan of the original Cybertechnology book, I was hoping for an update on Hatchetman, but I was pleased that he was mentioned.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:04 PM
Post
#53
|
|
|
Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Right. I'm getting told off by PM now for making personal attacks. I have warned the moderators before that I have a low tolerance for having my freedom of expression restricted. Anyone who knew my background would understand just how angry censorship makes me. And I think those who have been here a long time are familiar with my posts enough to know that I'm one of the politer people around here. I think... I have had enough. It has been interesting here, but I'll wish you all the best (even Dr. Funkenstein) and say my farewells. Happy gaming all. -Khadim Nasser. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:27 PM
Post
#54
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
<ahem>
uh....bon voyage, I guess. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:40 PM
Post
#55
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Now...can we please quit focusing on small parts of cyberanatomy and get back to the goddamn book?
Both sides in that argument sound stupid at this point. On that note: Now that we've mentioned cosmetic surgery and cosmetic cyber... What about their medical cousins? What are medications like in 2070? What kinda vaccines do kids get? How beatable is AIDS, or cancer, or diabetes? We've never once heard those really mentioned. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:46 PM
Post
#56
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Nor have I. Me, I just assume that meds are still primarily in capsule form. As for those diseases, since I can't recall them being cured in SR canon, I would think they're still around, albeit easier to diagnose and treat.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:49 PM
Post
#57
|
|||||||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,089 Joined: 4-October 05 Member No.: 7,813 |
actually, iirc it wasn't given an index so it could get to the printers on time, not because of page count. i think.
suppose that you're a health insurance company. you have to pay for, say, 20,000 replacement limbs per year for people in lower income brackets (ie don't pay for 'platinum service'). are you going to provide them with obvious cyberlimbs, or are you gonna spend another 6k *each* providing them with cloned limbs? (or, even if you assume synthetic limbs, that's still 1k each... that's 20,000,000 :nuyen: difference. now which is gonna look better to your shareholders... 20 million more in earnings, or that your clients didn't suffer any essence loss (which, for the record, you won't find a spot for in any financial statement that i am aware of). furthermore, let's pretend you're one of these low-income workers. you can't afford to miss work for 1 week let alone a few months while you wait for your limb to be cloned (assuming your medical insurance actually even covers the cloned limb). you gonna get the obvious (or even synthetic) cyberlimb which can be implanted within the week and have you back at work (remember, worker's comp doesn't cover the wait time for the cloned limb when you have almost no rights), or are you gonna get the cloned limb replacement? [edit] had to add in the second quote and response =S [/edit] This post has been edited by Jaid: Sep 5 2007, 09:50 PM |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:54 PM
Post
#58
|
|
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
You know, I'm going to break with tradition and agree with the good Dr. It's not so much that there's cyber-naughty-bits in Augmentation, it's not so much that they've got tons of space wasted on them that could have been used elsewhere. My view is that the sexual bits have been handled badly, with all the tact and taste of Beavis and Butthead.
As for the rest of the book, all I've got to say is this: Once again, they've escalated things, so the game will rapidly be unplayable unless you've got the new books to keep up. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:55 PM
Post
#59
|
|
|
Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
What do you mean by escalated things, Cain? If someone doesn't have Augmentation, why would they have a problem playing the game?
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 09:57 PM
Post
#60
|
|
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
Well, I agree that the rules / gear bloat is rapidly becoming the same as it ever was, but I've been saying that since people started trying to say that SR4 was going to be more "streamlined" ...because at the time there was only one book for it.
I don't know that I agree with unplayable, though. I haven't read Aug in depth yet, do you have any specific examples or just a better explanation of what you mean? Are you talking about sheer power level, or just the abundance of "stuff"? |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:01 PM
Post
#61
|
|||||
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
What I mean is, back in SR3, people complained that the game was essentially unplayable unless you had all the splatbooks (M&M, R3, etc.) That wasn't really the case: the game was playable, but you couldn't hope to keep a character on par without the splats. Street Magic continued that trend, and Augmentation does it even more so. If I created a sammie without Augmentation, or even a decker, I'd get chewed up and mowed over by a character who used that book. I couldn't keep up, no matter what I tried. Older characters are now rendered obsolete, and the lie has been put to the "One book game" stated goal of SR4. Edit:
Both, but mostly power level. For example, I sincerely doubt that I'll ever see a cybered character without an rating 3 Attention coprocessor. Heck, that was my first addition to Mr. Lucky. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:04 PM
Post
#62
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You know, when it was first released I looked at Augmentation with a very critical eye, almost positive that the "power bloat" was going to be there. You know, where stuff in Augmentation were absolutely required in order to be competitive.
I was pleasantly surprised by how that wasn't the case. It seems like it at times, and there's things in there that are odd and which can easily be twisted, but overall they only expand your arsenal, they don't replace it. Augmentation literally gives most characters new stuff to play with, as opposed to rendering everything in the main book moot (with the exception of cyberlimbs which totally needed to be updated). Sure, there are some really choice items in there (Radar Sense, Attention Coprocessors, Nanohives, etc.) but, as I said, those are mostly just new gimmicks or universal improvements rather than "omfg, my Street Sam is useless without a Radar Sense!" So, yeah, I disagree about the power bloat. Rules bloat is unavoidable in rules-heavy books (it's the entire point of them, in fact). Overall, Augmentation is one of the best releases the game's had in a long time. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:15 PM
Post
#63
|
|
|
Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
Sorry, Im' just amused at the irony of this.
paraphrase: Cain "Weird I agree with Doc" Doc "I disagree with Cain". :D Sorry you guys just make me laugh. I personally don't think it's really much a of a bloat,although I do most certainloyl see Cain's point. I've only read over Augmentatino, not read it in deep depth. Skipped the nonotech section for the most part. But I've got games with people that have that stuff so it becomes required reading for me. However this isn't D&D where they're going to be puting out 2 Class augmetations books for each class as well as numerous books that add more spells, gear, etc. There's one for each type of character focus, and that's it. So it might be husky, but it's not bloat. My opinion. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:17 PM
Post
#64
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
That is correct. We couldn't get the index done in time to make it a GenCon release. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:18 PM
Post
#65
|
|||
|
Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It's nice - but not that nice... Reception Enhancement bioware costs more, but works for Matrix and Sensors (even Astral...), too. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:20 PM
Post
#66
|
|
|
Grand Master of Run-Fu Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 |
Don't have the book right on hand, but aren't they compatible? That, plus the Intuition-linked skill-boosting nanoware, means the Perception whore is now a reality.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:25 PM
Post
#67
|
|||
|
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
As compared to before? 3-5 extra dice in that 20-30 pool somehow breaks them? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:27 PM
Post
#68
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 398 Joined: 16-August 06 Member No.: 9,130 |
I think augmentation is a solid book. I haven't had the time to read all of the fluff yet, but the gear is great, with some caveats.
I don't care much for the genitalia part, mostly because it will see no use in any of my games and I assume the games of many other players. I don't see myself as the type to have players going through sexual fantasies or exploring the sexual depravity of the cyberpunk genre. That doesn't mean a whore would never be in any game I play or GM in, or that there will never be women that have been raped or involved in a bunraku sex parlor. It just means there won't be any sexual experience involved with the players or GM actively involved, in character or out of character for that matter, during the gaming session. Roleplaying is not a sexual outlet for anyone at my gaming table. Therefore, the inclusion of sexual augmentations is wholly unnecessary and useless for my group. The inclusion of said material seems to be appealing only to a niche market. Another thing I didn't like was the symbionts are not as effective as I would like them to be. Orthoskin or Bone Density is always going to be the better choice due to the drawback of all symbionts. They cost nearly the same but you get more benefit from not going with the carapace symbiont. What the heck is up with the stalwart endosont. A +1 dice pool modifier, but look at the drawback. Not only do you get the critical miss drawback you get another one with a threshold of 3, that will likely get you killed. I mean, it's like there was some conspiracy of the developers to make symbionts completely not worth the opportunity costs and risks. Which is sad, because Stargate is so awesome. Sorry, just had to say that. I tried not to but it came out. Everything else so far has been great. I especially like the severe wounds optional rules. Whoever wrote those deserves a pat on the back. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:33 PM
Post
#69
|
|||
|
ghostrider Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,196 Joined: 16-May 04 Member No.: 6,333 |
I thought that's what you meant. I can't speak to SR4 yet, but I agree re: SR3. It was pretty much "everyone uses all of the books or nobody does". |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:35 PM
Post
#70
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
The complaints fielded at FanPro over the years had little to do with excessive number of splatbooks or the game being "unplayable unless you had all" of them, in fact we had that criticism didn't even make our top 10 - most SR players enjoy and appreciate books of toys and new options for their characters. What most SR players didn't like (and the single most common complaint FanPro recieved) was the fact that each splatbook essentially featured an entirely new ruleset and (the second most common complaint) the rules were excessively dispersed over a number of books. Those criticisms we're combating with SR4 by focusing on keeping the rules streamlined and concentrated in a minimal number of books. Both Street Magic and Augmentation offer less new rules than their SR3 counterparts, even though they feature more equipment. Furthermore, what rules are introduced are streamlined with the core rules (ie. no more learning a new ruleset when the rigger book comes out, or new rules for the Matrix when the hacking book comes out, no longer requiring a calculator to plan out a surgery). Street Magic condensed material previously spread over seven SR3 books into one book, added 20% of entirely new material, and reduced the number of new mechanics and rules compared to those seven books. Augmentation condensed material divided among five SR3 books into one book, introduced more than 75 new implants, and still managed to reduce the number of new mechanics and new rules compared to its five predecessors. As far as I'm concerned we kept our promise to streamline and avoid power-creep on both. For the record, both books did all this while also address the third most common complaint regarding SR3 rulebooks - the absence of fluff.
Could you point to exactly where this supposed "one book game" goal was ever stated by anyone connected to FanPro/Catalyst? To the best of my knowledge - as an SR developer - that has never been a stated goal for SR4. From the day SR4 was released FanPro announced its intention to put out a minimal number of advanced rulebooks: Street Magic, Augmentation, Arsenal and Unwired (In fact we also announced right from the get go the general intention to put out two further optional rule books later on: Runners' Companion and Mr.Johnsons Companion.) We also especifically stated these books would include updates to most of the SR3 gear and options not included in the base SR4 book. I'm not sure what you were expecting, but it certainly had nothing to do with what FanPro announced for SR4. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:39 PM
Post
#71
|
|||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,314 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lisbon, Cidade do Pecado Member No.: 185 |
Even on this board it's been 50/50 opinionwise so I wouldn't say it's appealing only to a niche market.
Symbionts (like genetic infusions) are a new technology in the Sixth World. Give them a few more years to work out the kinks. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:46 PM
Post
#72
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
I can't say, for all their newness, that I ever see much of anybody wanting a worm...slug....thing sliding around their insides that potentially has a mind of its own.
One body, ONE mind, thank you very much! |
|
|
|
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:51 PM
Post
#73
|
|||||||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I'm glad the splats are coming out. My only complaint was the huge time gap between the SR4 book and Street Magic. I'm still baffled by people who don't want options. One book game my ass. |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Sep 5 2007, 10:54 PM
Post
#74
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 394 Joined: 19-May 03 From: In your base eating your food. Member No.: 4,607 |
I wouldn't mind. I just didn't see much utility to them so I passed. We'll see what the future ones do. I do like the idea though, but I'm a biologist so I guess I'm biased. :) |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 5 2007, 11:11 PM
Post
#75
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
I agree with Draconis. The more splats, the merrier. For myself, I'm very much anticipating Runner's Companion and Mr. Johnson's Companion, moreso than Unwired or Arsenal. Though, of course, I will eagerly buy those when they become available.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 28th August 2025 - 06:06 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.