 Bone Density + Bone Lacing, Past Augmented Max? |
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 Sep 17 2005, 12:26 PM
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#1
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Technomancer  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374  |
What do you think? I've got work to do so I can't look it up before we game tonight, so I punt to you all and see what kind of concensus (or canon ruling) may be found. Thoughts? |
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Sep 17 2005, 12:41 PM
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#2
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
As this modifies Bod, even only in some conditions, it would be capped at effectivly 9 in those.
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Sep 17 2005, 12:45 PM
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#3
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
i would need the exact wording of the bone density... if it says it adds 4 to your body score while making damage resistance tests, i would say yes, you are capped at 9. if it says something like "adds 4 dice to any resistance test" thn no, because it's adding dice to the test, not directly to the score.
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Sep 17 2005, 12:47 PM
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#4
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
That's the case:
Personally, I tend to rule any bonus capped as long it is not noted explicitly as an independent modifier: Otherwise, the general caps wouldn't work. |
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Sep 19 2005, 04:12 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 2-September 05 From: Canada Member No.: 7,672 |
My opinion?
As the book is written.... Both pieces of 'ware add to body for purposes of damage resistance. Nothing more, nada, zip, zero. It does not add to the body attribute as a whole, therefore it's not capped. Other than that, I don't find it unbalancing. In fact, there are much easier ways (and cheaper on nuyen and essence) to get your damage resistance up to 11 and beyond. -Ravennus |
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Sep 19 2005, 04:38 AM
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#6
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's my view of how it should be as well. Whether it's actually canon is up in the air.
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Sep 20 2005, 05:21 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 2-September 05 From: Canada Member No.: 7,672 |
BTW, I've never thought that Bone Lacing and Bone Density stacked. I've always thought they were mutally exclusive, like Muscle Replacement vs. Toner/Augmentation.
Though, I might just be getting this from SR3. But if you can stack them, does that mean (technically) that the bonus to unarmed dmg stacks as well? That would be pretty sick... but if there's nothing written in SR4 to prevent it.... *shrug* Edit: Also, DAMN...........you would be one HEAVY motherfragger. I know SR4 doesn't have specific rules yet for extra wieght w/lacing and density (it just says it makes you heavier with no specifics), but still. You probably would break a sweat just walking a block, lol. |
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Sep 20 2005, 12:35 PM
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#8
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
i dont see any incompatiblity issue. bone dencity basicly makes the bones more dense, as in more bone mass.
bone lacing on the other hand is a grid or lace of material on top of the existing bone structures. i would say that they are perfectly compatible. the reason the muscle treatments are not is found in the name of the first one. your replacing the muscles with something that act the same way but isnt the same. the bioware on the other hand builds on the existing tissues by having the body grow more of one of the two types of cells. kinda like steroids, only in a more controled fashion. as for the weight, and breaking out in a sweat issue. thankfully they have now removed the set weight increases as this made some people complain about the logics of the game. the issue was that if your weighing more, how come your punches gets stronger? ie, should not the extra weight indicated by the decreased carrying capacity create a drop in the speed you can move your limbs? this therefor offseting the effect of the extra mass when it comes to the power of the strike. by the looks of what your writing it seems that now it just says that your body becomes heavyer (fully understandable given the extra mass) but as the weight and height of a character is ultimatly a roleplaying aspect there is no reason to set a specific weight increase. as in now things make logical sense as your just as agile after the treatment as before the treatment. the body have compensated for the extra mass by producing an extra amount of muscle cells. |
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Sep 20 2005, 02:24 PM
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#9
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
IIRC, the lacing takes place within the bone matrix. This means that it's internal to the organs (yes, bones are organs) and not simply "on top" of it. Since it is quite likely that this is where density increases via bioware would also work, it certainly could be mutually exclusive much like muscle replacement vs. muscle augmentation/toner. Jay |
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Sep 20 2005, 02:56 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 600 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,659 |
Except that all those other things specifically say they're not compatible with each other. Nothing in either description though for lacing and density, therefore they stack.
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Sep 20 2005, 05:31 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 2-September 05 From: Canada Member No.: 7,672 |
So I ask again....
If they stack, does that mean that the additional bonus to unarmed damage stacks as well? So, combining Titanium Bone Lacing (I don't know why it's so much harder to get in 2070 than 2060) with Bone Density 4 gives you.... +7 to Body for purposes of damage resistance ONLY +1 to ballistic and impact armor +6 DV to unarmed attacks, while also making them do physical damage?! Ech Either way, I don't have my SR3 books here, but I keep thinking that they were incompaitable in there. Though, I know SR4 is a whole other beast, so... -Ravennus EDIT- Again, this showcases another reason why the cyberlimb rules in Shadowrun are so fubar. I'm sorry, but no matter how dense/strong you make a persons bones, then lattice it with metal....they will never be a tough or as strong as a full metal cyberlimb. Why then do the cyberlimbs not give you extra damage resistance or a bonus to your unarmed damage? Heck, if I replace my entire body with cyber, I should be taking more damage and hitting harder than any meat puppet with tougher bones! |
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Sep 20 2005, 05:49 PM
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#12
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
hmm, cant find bone density under bioware in M&M, so unless it was in some other book then its a new bio mod...
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Sep 20 2005, 05:52 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX CAS Member No.: 1,097 |
They are technically doing the same thing, though. Both pieces of ware are designed to strengthen the bones so that they can take more and dish out more. The only difference (besides stats) is that one is bioware and one is cyberware.
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Sep 20 2005, 05:58 PM
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#14
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
It was in SotA63 as GenTech: Calcitonin. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:00 PM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Still you're increasing the body, which has a maximum of dum dum dum 9 in a human (augmented ofcourse). Body can still only max out at 9 no matter how many augmentations you put on it. Hence the whole augmented maximum thing going on with the rules. Actualy there are pro's and cons to each Ravennus. Bioware Pro- You get extra dice to reduce damage with. Cyberlimb Pro- You automaticaly get a bonus box of health. You can install armor in your cyberlimbs which will give you the same effect as some of the bioware. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:10 PM
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#16
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
and by the looks of it have no listed problem with bone lace. that is if they didnt errata it in... |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:12 PM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
He is assuming that isn't the case, seeing as the implants do not improve the Attribute in all situations. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:18 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Think of it this way...you have a glass which represents your attributes. You have your standard attributes normaly that fill the glass half way up. And beside it you have a pitcher of water. With almost another glass full of water (definately more than what your glass can hold with the amount of water you already have in it) in it for when you are resisting damage. Now you can pour that entire pitcher of water into that glass, but that glass is still only going to be able to hold so much the rest is just going to be wasted as it spills everywhere. Just beause your adding it in certain specific situations does not mean the rules suddently no longer apply. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:25 PM
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#19
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, we can each make analogies that reflect the different sides of the question. The point remains that there is some question about it in regards to canon, and Ravennus is, for now, going under the assumption that one side is the correct way in order to continue the discussion.
Even for the purposes of the argument, you are right and the character's Body could not be increased. Nothing limits other increases (like the extra damage potential) from potentially coming into play. This is what he wants to discuss. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:28 PM
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#20
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panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242 |
thats one thing that i dont want to bother with, limits.
i can understand the natural body having limits but thats why we have tech, to overcome said limits. so why on earth should there be a limit on the effects of implants? (outside of gamebalance that is) |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:34 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
Only thing is with this I don't see where he's getting this +6DV to attacks.
And there is nothing in either or those (direct quotes from the book btw) that says anything about increasing the DV of melee unarmed attacks. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:35 PM
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#22
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Target Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 23-August 05 Member No.: 7,591 |
Bottom of page 334
Bottom of page 338 |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:37 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 445 Joined: 18-August 05 Member No.: 7,567 |
I believe the theory is, no matter how much you amp up with machines and such there is only so much stress the human or rather metahuman body can actualy take and this would be represented by the racial max. Like you COULD get two cyberarms with a strength of 21 and theoreticaly you could lift a building out of the ground, but your cyberarms would tear out of your sockets because despite being able to lift that much your body can't support that. Hence the max attribute limits. |
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Sep 20 2005, 06:39 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There are charts at the bottom of each of those pages that give the melee stats for the respective wares.
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Sep 20 2005, 06:39 PM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 111 Joined: 2-September 05 From: Canada Member No.: 7,672 |
True, with cyberlimbs you get an extra damage box with each. However, with capacity costs you would spend almost all the capacity in cyberlimb on armor just to compare with bone density/bone lacing/orthoskin for the sake of damage resistance. Then you wouldn't even have enough room to buy up the attributes to comparable normal meat limits. Hell, it's far worse if you are an ork or troll. Also, don't forget that the armor ratings get divided between the rest of the limbs, the torso, and the head. -Ravennus |
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